Summoner & Rogue archetypes being more in line with each other?

Changes I think would help Summoners in their role, this debuff idea is just terrible..
Nothing is really being removed from the bards and chanters, they're just being changed so more than 1 of each class down't bring any extra buffs or utility. DPS loss of PotM and CoB not being 100% as it is with 2/3 of each Bard is made up by the fact that all all raid has the benefit of a troub and dirge.

Bard Changes -
Add an immunity to CoB and PotM of 30 seconds.
All buffs made Raid wide, or raid wide castable.
Removal of CoB and PotM raid wide from Mythicals, instead a bonus of 2 Conc slots.
Dirge Changes -
Battle Cry is changed to be castable on 2 people cross raid, 1 per group, a group that contains a character with UT cannot also have BC cast on a member of that group.
Single Target Hate buff is changed to a raid wide buff that increase fighter hate similar to the Troub dehate buff.

Troub Changes -
UT is changed to be castable on 2 people cross raid, 1 per group, a group that contains a character with BC cannot also have UT cast on a member of that group.

Enchanter Changes.
All buffs made raid wide.
Illusionist Changes.
TC and IA are changed to castable on 2 people cross raid, 1 per group, a group that contains a character with CH or TC cannot also have TC cast on another member of that group.
Coercer Changes.
Coercer Healing is changed to castable on 2 people cross raid, 1 per group, a group that contains a character with TC or CH cannot also have CH cast on a member of that group.

Summoner Changes.
Dumbfires are made immune to AOE's unless directly targetted and cast times reduced.
Main pets are immune to AOE's unless directly targetted
Dumfires have small debuffs attached to Double attack/Crit for.
Single Heart/Shard spell is changed to - a raid wide buff that has a chance to summon a heart/shard on any hostile action.
Summoner Pets use the mages stats with the following mulipliers -
Mage Pet
1 Spell crit = 1 Spell crit
1 Int = 1 Int
Resists all 1 = 1

Scout Pet
1 Melee Crit = 2 Melee Crit
1 Str = 2 Str
Resists all 1 = 1

Tank Pet
1 Melee Crit = 1 Melee Crit
1 Sta = 2 Sta
Resists all 1 = 1
Raid wide Heart/Shard spell is changed to -

Conguror - Earthen Might - Characters are surrounded by a wall of rock, reducing the next hostile actions damage against them by 75%. Raid wide, 15 seconds. 3 min recast, immunity of 3 mins.

Necromancer - Disease Carrier - All Damage over time spells have a 10% chance to spread to other hostile NPC's within a 5m Range of the target effected with the DoT. Raid wide, Duration 15 seconds, 5 min recast, immunity of 5 mins.
Conguror.
Shards changed from a one time clicky of a power feed to - +400 Base Spell/Heal amount and 500 power every 10 seconds, lasts 5 minutes.
Healing AA pet, is changed to a buff that is cast on any pet.

Necromancer.
Hearts changed from a one time clicky of a power feed to - +400 Base CA/Taunt amount and 500 power every 10 seconds, lasts 5 minutes.
Debuff AA pet is changed to a buff that is cast on any pet.
Summon Corpse Given as a lower level class spell.
Self res given as a class spell, 10 min recast rezzes to 10%hp/power.
Undead Horde recast is reduced to 5 mins (15 mins now???).

Add a group buff to summoner depending on pet.
fighter pet: +20% hate gain of fighter. Pet absorbs 10% of hate of the group.
scout pet: +10% Accuracy. Adds proc of melee damage to group members. -10% hate gain of non-fighter.
mage pet: Adds proc of manatap to group members. Spells of pet have debuff magical resists.
healer pet: 5% stoneskin. Adds proc of ward to priests.

Soul_Dreamer wrote:

these ideas are for the most part really bad man. you want the raid to loose buffs? makes no sense, the point of raid wide buffs is to give all the benefit of 4 chanters and 4 bards with just 2 of each...

Explain how anyone is loosing buffs???

With so much talk over raiding, I am still concerned over PUG's when it comes to the summoner changes. Will the proposed changes make summoners more "welcome" in groups? When you see a request in chat "Group LF dps" or "Group LF utility" which will summoners respond to?
As it stands now, assuming the group does not know you, a summoner is added to a group as a filler spot when nothing else is available. Will the debuff change that?

It's not too terribly hard to get a group as a summoner, just make sure you're parsing well enough and get your name out there with random groups.

Bard Changes -
Add an immunity to CoB and PotM of 30 seconds.
All buffs made Raid wide, or raid wide castable.
Removal of CoB and PotM raid wide from Mythicals, instead a bonus of 2 Conc slots
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Hmm dont like this at all leave our myth's alone.!!!

Soul_Dreamer wrote:

this-----> Soul_Dreamer wrote:

this----> Asif wrote:

and a few other things.. i think devs have it right so far, the only thing im worried about is what they do with group buffs for other classes..
for raid wide buffs to work they need to be universal so the raid becomes one solid unit of 24 players instead of 4 groups of 6 players.. if they go half azz it will fail like fighter raid wides did their first time around.

Davngr1 wrote:

Unless certain aspects of raid mobs/mechanics and buffing mechanis are changed I dont exactly see this getting summoners into raids. The way raids are right now, certain fights absolutely must have enchanters preferably in each group.
On very power intense fights like Mynzak or Zarrakon, having an enchanter in a group is not only essential, but also not guaranteed to provide enough power for the group at all times depending on luck/circumstances making multiple highly valued. In light of that I do not see too many enchanters getting removed.
Healers also will not likely be losing spots, especially with fights that require/ are much easier with 8 healers or fights where each group is segregated by a gimmick like on Zarrakon.
As far as bards, I see a similar issue unless things are changed. A raid will generally want 2 of each bard to keep a Precision of the maestro/Cacophony chain going. Also, even if the buffs are raid wide and immuties applied to CoB/PotM...just one of them getting killed would cause major issues if there were not 2 of each.
As to the 3 way split in the debuffing scene, I only see it hurting summoners AND sorcerors. It is fairly vital that an enemy be fully debuffed in raids, especially for spellcasters as the resist rate on a sparsely debuffed raid mob is horrible to the point that master spells and 500+ disruption are simply not enough to consistently dps.
Also, having time compression and upbeat tempo raid castable on 4 people will not diminish the want for those two classes, as having 1 of each on 8 people is better than 1 of each on 4.
Due to the planned 3 way split, a raid force with a wizard and a warlock will require both a necromancer and a conjuror to properly debuff those resistances if the two summoners are indeed given large mitigation debuffs comparable to dispatch.
On fights where the enemy is consistently stripping themselves of debuffs, they require a large amount of consistent dps combined with quick re-application of debuffs, and the character in question not dying. Thus, having to only worry about debuffing mitigation would benefit a raid force that decides to only fill up with scout dps and elect to simply take only enchanters and no summoners or sorcerors.
As such, this change may instead hurt mages while attempting to help summoners. It will probably hurt mages that are not too established in a guild's raid force. It will also be an issue with setting some guilds back by needing to search for 2 summoners of an acceptable quality that may or may not know the content that the rest of the guild is/was already clearing combined with needing to possibly gear them.
One can only hope that they will get this change right, but given certain track records I do not see that as likely.

I havent heard from soe that the mage debuffs will be split ele/nox between the summoners. While based on what those classes each cast this would be a bad idea in general for the reason you stated. Also which would get the mental debuff for the chanters? Lets hope they make it a all magical dmg debuff and give it to both classes.

just to throw this out there they have already announced that they are changing bard and enchanter buffs to raidwide and things like TC would work on one person per group ie the enchanter could cast it on 4 poeple in a raid if they were all in separate groups
source: http://fanfaire08.feldoncentral.com...q2-news-rollup/
important part

so apparently i suck at html you get the point

Morghus wrote:

This is exactly what I was thinking. People are still going to choose enchanters over summoners because of power regen. We still will not have enough utility to be useful.
If summoners don't get some sort of power regeneration (hearts/shards don't count) then we will still be sidelined for utility classes.

Imagine if vampirism was changed to a DD spell that would proc group power (similar to our T2/T3 robe).
We'd actually get a useful lvl 80 spell, some burst damage and utility all from a simple spell fix.
No more squishy worthless orb....

personally i woudl rather see vampirism changed in teh follwoing way
get rid of the absolutel garbage dies if person takes dmg crap. that is the absolute dumbest thing i have ever seen on any spell in this game. Vampirism doesnt nearly do enough of anything to warrant such a weakness.
second change the functionality of the spell to be a group/raidwide buff that functions exactly like lich III, and yes i mean identical to lich 3 minus the illusion. same recast timer, same duration as current vampirism.
that would make it useful and not total utter crap. devs have already said they dont want to change our dmg capability so making it a dd with a group power proc is very liekly not going to be an acceptable thing for the devs, but making it a 1 minute lich 3 for teh whole raid would add that power regening option that hearts just dont give. a change such as above woudl give us an actual group/raidwide spell that is useful, not overpowered, and woudl help greatly in warranting a spot on a raid force.

Morghus wrote:

yes well for this to work ALL chanter and bard abilitys need to become raid wide period.
indeed if the bard/chantr dies it will hurt the raid but lets be honest... there has to be some challange to the game, simply don't let your chanter and bard die. healers can make macros to put death saves on the utillity class, the point is to get away from this frame of mind that makes raid forces do the following:
player1=i like what this class does for the group
player2= lets put one in each group
player1= geniuzzzzz omgdz!!! tht's such a leet strat!

seriously that is the problem and that's why the raid needs to become a group of 24 players not 4 groups of 6. it does not have to be some strict requirement to have one of each class but lets at least make so there is little to no benefit to having 3 or 4 of anyone one class.
yes some poeple will loose their spot but many people lost their spot in raid when RoK came out too.. where was the up roar then? lol everyone was telling summoners to stop QQing ..

as far as the debuff 3 way split crap.. i don't like it one bit.
imo necro should take the spot of the second brig, conj should recive offensive debuffs similar to swash(well the offensive debuffs swash has need a boost imo) and brig should stay untouched(no loosing ability at least).

Cinnimon wrote:

and that summoners can outparse wizards and rogues. Maybe not necros but conjus can do great damage.

It all depends on the fight, buffs, gear, and skill of the summoners and rogues in question. Especially in TSO, more named fights (the only fights that really matter) are summoner friendly than they are rogue friendly.

And I hope the dumbfire pets changes will be for all classes ... not just summoners ^^

yeah, all dumbfires for all classes are a joke now. One thing that could be done about the power regen making chanters a necessity for all groups is people an ability to generate some power for themselves. Both sorces have a spell that does this but it is extremely underpowered, barely giving enough power to cast 1 spell. Make them bigger with a longer recast.