SOE, are you listening? Bueller? Bueller?

I'm relatively new to the warlock; however, I'd like to post my opinions regarding changes that should be made to the class.
I created a warlock with the notion that the class should outperform other mages in taking down multiple mobs quickly. With most classes, I have found it difficult to deal with encounters and adds. Sadly, my illusionist fares much better against multiple mobs than my warlock does. I like the idea of an AE mage class, but it is not operationalized well in its current form.
I'd like to see us have more pbaoes and more pbaoe or encounter reactives or damage procs. Why do wizards have access to more pbaoes than we do? Theirs are directional but do a lot more damage than ours. Given that I seldom run into groups of **tough** mobs that exceed 3 in number, this makes wizards' pbaoes superior to our own. No one wants to play a class that is known for taking down large numbers of weak mobs efficiently. Unfortunately, this is a fairly accurate description of the warlock.
I would also like to see something done to change our curse spells. With the elimination of nil crystals from the game, these spells have become pretty useless. I like the idea of having power drains since I find power management a bit tricky when soloing. However, I wouldn't mind it at all if these were also replaced by dps-oriented spells.
I think we should be given evacuate. Do we even have a spell to compensate for the group evac that wizards get? The random teleport/threat reduction spells (e.g., null caress, blink, phase) are worthless as an escape mechanism. The only time I use blink is to reposition myself in combat (with my illusionist alt and or my warlock via the arasai racial ability). Even then, I find this most useful if there is a tank or pet to distract the mob(s).
It's difficult to compare our AAs with those of wizards. I feel that we have more useful class-specific trees than wizards do. However, we have nothing to compete with manaburn, and the change to propagations reduced the usefulness of that end-line ability. It would be nice if SOE would reconsider giving us the AE version of manaburn that we were originally supposed to have.
I do not want to see the warlock become a more dot-focused class. If that were to happen, then we'd be in direct competition with the necromancer, and there would be little reason to choose a warlock over a necro. The necro has lifeburn, heals, rez, and a plethora of pets that add dps and/or tank. All we'd have would be some novel slow-casting dots that do more damage than the necro's **personal** spells. There would be little reason to choose a warlock over a necro. Further, I am not a big fan of dots. Mobs frequently die before dots run their course. Dots are terrible for breaking roots, and I believe that with the latest update they may no longer trigger certain types of reactives (e.g., spell lash). [Note: I've read some posts today that have suggested that the change will only affect mobs' reactive damage shields. Others have questioned whether mobs dots will now cease to trigger reactive heals. I have not yet seen a definative response from SOE regarding these concerns.]
I cannot understand why SOE has not sought to make changes to the warlock class. Coercers were in dire need of a fix, and we should be next in line. Things need to be done to put the warlock on par with the wizard (and both classes on par, dps-wise, with the assassin and the brigand). Given the ratio of encounters to single mobs, I think that the warlock should be redesigned to out-dps the wizard on groups of 3 or more mobs with the wizard winning on groups of 1 or 2 mobs.
Thank you. Let the verbal abuse commence.

This isn't to be flame in any way. I'll throw these in points though, for easy reading.
- Firstly, what level are you? How many AA's do you have? Are you a soloer/grouper/raider?
- There isn't a class in the game that can out-perform us on a multi pull of 3 mobs or greater. If your a really good warlock, you should be able to win most 2 mob encounter pulls as well.
- RoK has virtually no Multi-Mob encounters. The Developers are aware of this, and have been designing the next expansion to cater to that. We should see our characters become much more enjoyable to play after that, although our hate problems will return. (Which really, isn't a big deal. I actually prefer it that way)
- Our curse spells suck. They absolutely need a complete overhaul.
- I agree we should have evac. However I do think that we received Null Carress in its place. If I had to pick between the two, I would certainly rather keep Null Carress.
- Our AA's aren't too bad overall, but need a few tweaks. They've been nerfed, and nerfed and nerfed and nerfed. I'd love to have the 4% extra base damage back on brainstorm, and I don't think propagations should have ever been touched. Aftershocks is a joke, and I question why I even blew the AA training it, although the line leading up to it is nice.
- We are a DOT based class. Our best damage comes from DOTS. I wouldn't want to see us move away from that.

Technically we are capable of doing far more damage then a Wizard can if the zones have been setup with multi-mob encounters. As your new to the class, you probably didn't get to experience well setup zones.
If we have a good mix of multi-mob encounters with solo mobs, we do very well.

Zahne,

I generally agree with you.

I hope the new expansion includes some group stuff for us. However, that is 3 months away if it stays on schedule. I also don't see why they couldn't fix up some of our AE abilities now.

(appologies for not remembering the actual spell names, I'm trying....)

Our current main PBAE is good. Rift is 'ok'. Our main group AE is great, if an agro magnet.

The 'gas cloud' AE nuke doesn't fit, its just too weak. I think I ran the numbers on this a few levels before and I can get better DPS out of using our big single target nuke. I'll run them again though. (Oh, how long is the stun on this spell? If its decent I might pull it out more but I always assumed it was 'very short' since I don't think is says specifically).

Overall on multi mob encounters I feel one AE nuke short of having a good set of AE nukes, probably a PBAE nuke.

Maybe its the STR AA line nuke, but I spec out of that so long ago that I can't remember if its worthwhile vrs our single target nukes.

My assumption on the racials is the AE racial abilities also aren't worthwhile vrs our single target nukes.

The Rift spells are nice, but feel underpowered compared to the wizard Fusion. 4 Rift targets should equal a 2 target fusion. 5-6 Rift targets should equal a three target Fusion. I don't believe it does right now. I wouldn't mind seeing the casting timer on Rift lowered to reflect this or the damage increased.

I also would like a PBAE debuff. Maybe put it on the same timer as our current debuff and let us pick which we want.

So to sum up quickly and I realize it got a little off topic...

One more AE, which really ought to be PBAE
One PBAE debuff

I'd feel a lot better and focused about my AE capibilities, even given the single target world of RoK.


Fendaria

Windowlicker:

Thanks for the comments. In addition to the warlock, I play illusionist, necromancer, and swashbuckler alts. In real life, I am a university professor and have my own research consulting firm. As such, I am not able to play EQ2 as often as I would like (and, therefore, have less exp than many others who play the game). I tried to limit my comments to my in-game observations. I am also an avid reader of the posts in this forum and EQ2Flames as well as many other sources of information about EQ2.

As you might infer from the above, I solo and group mainly. I am not suggesting that the warlock class should exchange its dots for dd spells. In theory, dots are preferable for an AE-based caster since they generate less threat. However, I do not want to see us exchange the AE focus for a dot focus. A dot-focused caster already exists in this game: the necromancer. I cannot envision anything that could be done with a purely dot-focused warlock that would render the class more interesting or useful to groups than the necro (which has significant utility and dps capabilities).

In general, my observations about the game are consistent with those of Fendaria. The spells in the gas cloud line are too slow and do not do enough damage to warrant their consistent use. The poison cloud line is good for weakening mobs if one is operating in a group and is able to avoid adds. It does too little damage to be of much help in solo play. I have not used rift; however, the disparity in damage caused by rift and fusion is obvious and disconcerting to anyone who has ever considered playing a warlock instead of a wizard. With rift, one needs to hit 5 or 7 mobs just to equal the damage caused by fusion. In my limited experience, the only time I am faced with that many mobs is when most or all of them are trash. In such cases, it is more efficient to take down the lead mob (if there is one) using dd nukes and then hit the trash with whatever ae/pbaoe spell is available. Unfortunately, our lvl 65 spell and its upgrade are designed specifically to kill trash. Accordingly, from what I have seen in game and read, rift/upheaval don't factor into many warlocks' spell rotations. The distortion and absolution lines are good, though the former returns too little power to warrant the difference in damage when compared to the wizard spell equivalent, and the latter has a ridiculously long casting time that is not reduced sufficiently through existing AAs.

As it stands, the warlock excels at killing large numbers of trash mobs in solo or group settings and weakening encounters for others to kill in group settings. The existing AE abilities are not terribly effective in solo play. I realize that the class has always been more dot and group oriented than the wizard. However, the existing problems go beyond the inavailability of linked content. Adding more encounters without altering the class will increase zonewide dps, but the increase will be realized solely through trash mobs. Holding the strength of mobs constant, I would like to see the wizard excel at killing one or a small number of mobs and warlocks excel at killing larger numbers of mobs. Unfortunately, the only way I can think of operationalizing this would be scaling warlock spell damage with the number of mobs, which would be complicated.

Econometrix wrote:

I numbered these for easy responding:

1. I don't think we are exchanging the AE focus for a DOT focus. However, some of our strongest AE's are DOT based. So in a way, we get the best of both worlds. (Armageddon, Brood Infestation, Acid Storm, Cataclysm, Pillaging, and in a way Netherrealm as some examples of this)

The Necromancer is actually a little better with 1-3 mobs, where we're far better at 3+. The problem right now, is in the fact RoK wasn't designed with 3+ mob encounters in mind. That will be changing in the next expansion.

2. In groups, I'm usually the one killing all the mobs unless we have some scout or mage burst DPS that beats me to it. We do not shine in the short term, and personally I would prefer it that way. We really come out ahead when the creatures we're hitting require a little more DPS.

I would agree with you regarding our AE abilitiesnot being terribly effective in solo play. But then again, creating a character that could easily solo multi's would be very overpowered. I'm not sure how your experiences with soloing are, but my Warlock can easily solo yellow triple up heroics. In some cases, I've even solo'd heroic named that are my level or higher.

Quite a few classes can't do that. And personally I have no complaints as to how well a Warlock can solo.


3. You shouldn't be beating a good Wizard at single target. Wizards do excel at fights with 1-3 mobs. And we absolutely own everyone on pulls with 3 or more.

Fendaria wrote:

Radiation is a pretty lack-luster spell. I do agree it could use a little in the way of a boost. I'd very much like a second AE that was similar to Catacysm. Especially in the way of reuse/recharge.

Our Debuffs are an entirely different concern. Really the only debuff we have that's worth beans is Vacuum Field.

Just wanted to mention that you gotta keep PVP in mind when aking suggestions. Rift is a REALLY good spell in PVP, but... I sure wouldn't mind a lower casting time >__________________________________________>

But in PVE, increased casting time wouldn't do much difference really. A higher reuse time or damage would be better PVE wise, the problem though is that alot of people would complain. Mostly scouts o'course since it's *so* bad if any other class except scouts gets any form of upper hand.


But enough generalizations and long faces now, I do believe we have the right to get an evac. Wizards get theirs at... 15 I think? Even if Null caress is supposed to be the replacement for evac, we don't get it until level 55. Wizards has already two evacs and they can only use ONE of them at a time, they still have to wait 15 minutes until they can cast any evac after using one.

So why the heck do they need two? Give the group evac to us dammit! We're the encounter mages here, it would only make sense that wizards gets a singletarget evac and warlocks a group evac.

I could care less about evac. It makes no difference to me in PvE at all. Maybe its worth something in PvP though.

I wouldn't mind a few more port locations though.


I meant a PBAE poision/disease debuf. The other debuffs and spells aren't worth casting and I don't want them to be worth casting.


Three mobs should be a 'group' encounter that we excel on and beat out a wizard in DPS for. We don't, much do to that Fusion spell, but we should. Maybe it could be close, but its enough mobs to me that we should beat out any single target DPS.


Fendaria

Fendaria, thanks for following up and for clarifying your previous statements.

Though I respect your opinion, I think the absence of evac is an important limitation for warlocks in PVE. I believe that our substitute for portal and depart is the siphoning line. While I have found this line to be helpful in terms of power management, it is not comparable to the utility provided by evac. I have been involved in numerous situations where group evac has saved the day. Conversely, I can only think of one instance in which blink (racial ability) has kept me from getting killed when used for that purpose. Evac is far more reliable than blink or the other random teleportation spells. While siphoning upgrades at levels higher than 38, it really doesn't return all that much power. It's nice being somewhat more power efficient than wizards, but it's not worth the loss of evac. At the very least, I would like to see us have a personal **or** group evac spell. Perhaps it could be made something obtainable through questing.

I think my comments regarding AE procs/buffs were consistent with your own views.

Your last statement was not fully clear to me. Are you saying that you feel that rift and fusion are comparable or that the latter is superior to the former? In my view, the warlock should be the most proficient of spellcasters at dealing damage to multiple opponents simulatneously. We do very well in terms of causing damage to encounters. However, wizards have better pbaoe nukes than we do. Consequently, it is difficult to argue that we are the kings of AE damage since pbaoes can be substituted for encounter spells. Additionally, while we are capable of dealing damage to several mobs at once, this does not necessarily translate into an increased ability to kill opponents since spells like rift are geared toward eliminating weaker mobs.

Nobody beats us for cool spell effects and spell names, though.

Hey Hey


I could care less about evac, but i do not see it game breaking and do not really see a reason why we should not have it. I actully think the warlock is not the issue it is the content.

I rember the first time i logged in took the boat over to KP and was amazed at the uter lack of linked encouters. I had some idea that there where few from some Beta Testers but in the back of my head i kept on telling myself they would add some in the next GU , and if not that one then the next one.

I keep hearing that the next xpac will have more... We shall see. If not the warhammer open weekend was interesting.

Welcome Home

Rev

If dying in EQ2 really bothers you, I suppose evac is nice. I could care less if I die You get a little XP debt and a repair bill.

My wizard has realistically cast evac exactly once trying to keep the group alive; it popped us out of the instance we were in and we were locked out. Also, while I'm not completely positive on this, I believe evac doesn't wipe the hate list. I've evac'd in some small instances and had the mobs come running after us to beat us to a pulp at the zone in. Quite funny actually

Plus, we're a DPS class. I always tend to think a few more good nukes and we can kill the mob instead of running away.

The real use of Evac and why I like it is hoping around the zone and speeding up trouble. Enter BB, evac, and your at the quickly. Done with the dungeon, evac out. Evac isn't used to 'evac'.

Plus scouts get evac too. So it isn't like wizards have something 'unique' with regards to evac that no one else has.


Wizards and Warlocks are extremely comparable. Probably more comparable than most other classes and their counterparts. Roughly guessing I'd say about 50% of our spells are nearly duplicates of eachother. Another 25% are close versions of eachother (ones a dot, anothers a nuke). Up to lv 50 the only major difference is Wizards have ball of fire and Warlocks have the Absolution/Distortion combo.

After 50 we almost always gain spells in pairs. They get one, we get one. If you assume wizards are supposed to be the best single target nukers are warlocks are the best AE nukers, I don't see how you can not compare the new spells and their DPS potential for different fights.


Devistation = Ice Comet
Dark Infestation = Surging Tempest
Rift = Fusion


I believe Warlocks should be AE masters and wizards single target. Looking at the state of the game today and the zones across almost all levels, 3 mobs appears to be 'group' or AE content. 3 mobs should be what warlocks excel at. If you put 3 mobs in the single target category, then the AE content isn't just lower at the upper end but in the whole game. There are very, very few places in the game with 5-6+ linked mobs. There are more, but not a whole lot more places with 4 linked mobs. Even for 6 man groups, 3 mobs seems to be the norm. If your fighting more than three, chances are they are unlinked.

Fighting AE mobs also has a serious problem on the tank side. No tanks class really appear to be focused on keeping agro on AE mobs. Maybe they can do it, but warlocks can still rip agro off them. I don't see the tools for those tanks to keep agro off of the warlock.

When the new expansion comes out will it have AE content? Hopefully. The devs have claimed they are trying to address this issue. Will it be filled with 6+ linked mobs? No. I think the most reasonable idea is there will be 3 linked mobs and that is what Warlocks should be excelling at. That is the AE group content. If your fighting 3 linked mobs, warlocks should be out DPSing wizards.

And what does this really mean? Our AE nukes need to be equal or better DPS against 3 targets than a Wizard's single target nukes.


This then leads me back to the Rift vrs Fusion spell comparison. These spells are our big nukes. Fusion lets the wizard do more damage against 3 targets, which is as I argued above, is the AE content for the game now. Warlocks don't have a spell to really compare to it.


Fendaria

Fendaria:

Dead on! Your comments regarding the critical number of mobs above which warlocks should do more damage than wizards are absolutely consistent with those I made in my initial post. Most fights involve a single mob, while most encounters involve 3 mobs. Therefore, it would seem reasonable for wizards to out-dps warlocks on 1 or 2 mobs and for warlocks to out-dps wizards on groups of 3 or more. Most of our lines are fine, but some spells (rift) and multi-mob lines need tweaking. I'd also like SOE to revisit our class-specific endline AAs. Give us an AE version of manaburn or something to account for the recent reduction in the utility of propagation.

3 suggestion.
1.pls give back us propagation.(can all item apply) and increase to 5%.
that only useful buff for warlock.
2.Devastation line must max count break.
Devastation is AE spell but why have MAX count 5?
3.about Acid storm.
I think acid storm max count is 8. right?
If max count is 8...need incease count to 12. same Upheaval count.
possible?

Fendaria wrote:

Actually this sounds like a good idea for dealing with the issue of "if you ain't a guard, we don't need you" tank problem. Let one of the other class of plate tanks (or leather tanks, if it could be worked out) become the AE tank specialist. I'd love to see SKs for something like this, as their spell line parallels the warlocks nicely, being disease (or poison, can't remember off the top of my head) based. The SK are being dis'ed at raids as well, even as off-tank because pallys can heal others, where as SKs are self-healers.
I wouldn't mine if they set the SK/warlock combo up to be extra effective together. Both classes are needing a bit of Dev love, the spell lines compliment each other, and for RPing, you can even see why the SK (who should inspire fear and intimidate the masses) would hang out with Norrath's 'kill them all...' style mage.

They are rebalancing the tank classes soon(tm), so we can hope they DO provide the means to hold aggro off us this time around.

I'm sorry but am I the only who -really- enjoys my lock?
First: put a TON of aa into your sheilding, go down the INT and WIZ line.

I never have a problem taking down mobs.... if you are gaining a ton of hate...let your gruop take the hate first and target though somone....

and locks -are- posions, poison takes time to work and kill so...locks are dotters...

Wanting some things changed or improved doesn't mean you don't enjoy the class. And about poison acting slowly, well, if we applied real life to our entire class, then mobs could take several months to die from our disease spells

FetishStar wrote:

Unless you are soloing or pvping, putting a bunch of AA into your shielding is a waste. Specing the int line also makes it harder to keep up with other top end dps classes.

Have to agree with Daemius that enjoying your lock doesn't mean they don't still need some work.

Fendaria wrote:

First off, I have a conj and a warlock. The conj is the dominate of all classes when it comes to group encounters. I have yet to play any class that can out dps a conj in group encounters. They have several AE dots and then two AE nukes. If they can get all 5 off then they will double the parse of a warlock because of warlock casting timers.
Other than that, I agree with everything you said.

aciddragon340 wrote:

I really, really, really disagree with you on that.

Come group with my Warlock sometime, I'll show your Conj how it's done.