I have no idea if anyone else as already replied to this because I have not read past this post but I would like to give you my iteration of what it takes to be a good pvper. 1. First and foremost. A complete understanding of game mechanics and how to exploit them (not as in game exploiting as in using them to your advantage.) Simple but not common. 2. An intimate understanding of all classes the game has to offer. The spells they cast. They effects they bring. The sounds they make when being cast. They way the look when being cast, etc. So that you can recognize them and react accordingly. We can call this an extension of point one. 3. Gearing. Not the ability to get the gear, that's a given, but researching every xpac and zone to find the perfect items for your pvp playstyle regardless of the location. This is not nearly as important as it once was but there are still gems throughout the game. Activateables, consumables, even a few items left. 9/10 players have forgotten these exist but I promise you many of them can make or break a pvp fight. (Strangely the most uncommon of the list in my experience even though it is arguably the easiest) 4. "Skill" Using the first two points to perfection. Knowing what to cast when, how to counter what others do. How to bait cool downs (was much more important before 100% reuse) Using terrain to your advantage. Knowing when to run and when to rush. Use of tactics, (and the willingness to use ******** ones to win). None of these seem hard to those of us who have a good understanding of the game. But I can tell you from my years on Nagafen that regardless of whether you call it skill or something else. It is rare to find. I'd like to share my favorite ****** tactics now that I no longer play I'm not afraid of it becoming common practice =P. It is strangely one I have never encountered outside of solo pvp that makes all the world of difference. And for my guild Axeholes it meant lots of raging and claims of hacks. Eventually leading to the forced renaming of our guild. I remember the day fondly now but man was I upset when that happened. Anyway... Many of us understand the use of Alias macro. And many of us understand how to use implied targets in pvp to make it difficult for those you are fighting. (I.E a pet class targeting through their pet when fighting a healer forces the healer to target themselves every time they wish to heal do to their implied target being they pet, not themselves.) Well back in the days of my guildies and I roaming SS at 65 we employed this in group pvp with devastating effect. Using alias macroing we cast everything but heals through the pet class in groups pet. We used a defiler pet due to its AOE imunities in the shaman tree. (also because it was the only pet class we had =P) What this did was not only make it more difficult for the healers to heal themselves because of taunts and targeting problems but also because our pet never got taunted that all our spells ALWAYS went on target and burning the healers was cake.
It has always been my opinion that the seed from which most negative pvp changes stemmed was the original removal of level locking. Level locking gave all us filthy casual players that did not have the time or will to raid a place to feel competitive among ourselves. We can blame this on the bluiebies rolling on our server then raging at getting owned by twinks but I remember a lot of level cap players on naggy that wanted it gone too. But however it happened, when it did, some of us left. But most of us lvled up and had no way to become competitive.. If you were like me you changed your entire work schedule and raided but not many were like me HA! Most got frustrated and quit or stagnated and bitched on forums. Next thing you know we have changes coming to pander to their needs. Many foresaw this but it still happened http://archive.eq2wire.com/showthread.php?t=364914
This list is essentially what it takes to be good at any aspect of the game. And I agree completely. Unfortunately, plenty would argue that "NO! Blue players don't know what it's like to be a good PVPer! It takes a unique set of skills only honed and obtained in the crucible that is the Nagafen server!" Not only do I find that to be impossible, but I have always wondered where the sense of superiority came from. The idea that "Those blues wouldn't stand a chance against us!" either in battlegrounds or otherwise. EQ2 just doesn't have that level of PVP depth. The differences between being good at PVE and being good at PVP are so minor, I don't know how an argument can be made that "Onyx was bad at PVP, they got carried by gear and numbers", etc. It takes 5 minutes in PVP to understand that you avoid mage LoS if possible. Boom. Skill. So far as I've gathered, the only DIFFERENT claim to excellence that can be made in PVP opposed to PVE *IS* in fact having the number advantage. Not going into fights where you are at a disadvantage number wise, or organizing your players to be at the appropriate locations at the appropriate times to give you the numbers advantage. You can't do this in PVE content. As for the level locking thing, I can say for certain that removing it is what stopped ME personally from participating in EQ2 PVP. I think the gear and AA choices at lower levels, as well as the significance of ranking your skills up and building correct groups with friends.. I think all of that is much more in depth prior to level cap. Prior to being able to take every good AA in every tree, and being capped on stats such as crit chance and the like. The only reason I hadn't mentioned it is because I honestly didn't know when that change took place. It does fit well.
I would say that there is no difference between a great player in PVP or PVE. One can be good at PVE and **** in PVP or **** in PVE and good at PVP. But in order to surpass "Good" and become a "Great" player you must understand all facets of the game. Where most PVE players miss the mark is going it to PVP expecting the same mechanics or at least not understanding the differences fully. The players that understand both fully and play accordingly are simply great players, regardless of their preferred playstyle. When you are talking about the top of both worlds, the great players of both sides of the coin, then yes... Numbers or whomever makes a mistake first would decide the fight. But the average PVP player will bet the average PVE player at PVP because they understand it better. The difference is one of rulesets. Plan and simple,
Oops logged into wrong account =P i was wondering why your reply didn't show up as an alert. And I meant the average PVP player will BEAT the average PVE player not bet =)
The only skill that cannot be gained through any means other than experience PVPing is the ability to anticipate what other players are going to do. Its more often than not something illogical. =P
It's not negativity. It's realism, and caution. If you "revamp" PVP in EQ2 under the assumption that it will bring back enough people to populate a server properly for PVP, and the people just don't come back.. that's it. Game over. No more PVP, no more major attempts to fix it. Not just that, but if you simply revamp the Nagafen ruleset, you are ONLY doing that for Nagafen players, unless you implement a way for EVERYONE to participate and benefit from the new changes. The only way that happens is if people don't have to reroll to PVP. Allowing people to play on Nagafen at will, incentivized or otherwise, instead of restricting Nagafen to characters created there, will fulfill a pretty powerful desire for blue players, and provide population for the server. Not only does it suddenly justify dedicating development power, since those changes are potentially enjoyed by everyone, but it provides enough immediate, albeit potentially temporary population as a launchpad for enjoyable PVP, and the return of the Nagafen population in general. TLDR: Accessibility = More people = more (hopefully enjoyable) PVP, and including more people = justified development dedication. I'm not saying you can't bring Nagafen back. I'm saying you can't do it without the help of the other servers, and the current EQ2 population to provide the numbers necessary for proper overland PVP. In my mind, the only reason not to open Nagafen up to battlegrounds-style temporary transfers is because of the additional time it takes to enable such a system. Any fluctuations caused by "part time" players is much preferred to ZERO fluctuation because nobody is playing there. And no matter HOW GOOD pvp is, following those changes, if there is no one to pvp with, nobody will be coming back. So the solution is to wait and do it correctly in a way that everyone can enjoy, opposed to rushing it, smashing the little bit of hope that PVP players have left, and abandoning PVP entirely. @Slant, The best thing about bad players is, it doesn't matter if they stumble across the right actions or not, they're still bad and they will lose with any effort whatsoever by a good player. The best thing about good players is that they will make the right decision every time, which makes them predictable. So, it's safe to always assume they will make the proper decision, because worst case scenario, you get surprised by a bad player doing stupid things, and then you whip them anyway.
Thank you for finally saying what you were so transparently inferring from the start... You, a blue player, want to define how red servers and the PvP ruleset are handled. Sorry...the red servers were already sacrificed for you and all the BG jockeys who want to have all the fun, yet none of the difficulties of a red server. You have been given that...it is BGs. Enjoy. If by some slim miracle of some forgotten god of Norrath, somewhere there is a Dev who happens to have a rez stone in his bags...and is willing to cast it, knowing full well that the group might wipe again...then I hope he does it with zero regard for blue server players and BGs. I don't mean that heartlessly or with no love for the game. I mean that in the aspect that if a red server is going to be rezzed, and survive the next pull, then it is going to be as a red server...not a blue server, not a blue/red server...but as it was before, when it (I'm sorry THEY) were ridiculously successful. Sorry...no one cared what you thought when it was done the first time. Why should they care what you think now? Would you lose players from the blue servers? Absolutely! But they are only back on blue because your whining ruined their game. I can only hope, with fleetingly little hope, that SOE takes the risk on a new red server, modeled after the wildly successful environment it used to have, and in so doing leaves you sitting there in BGs...beating up your guild mates, useless queue after queue, zerging over useless objectives, to get useless BG cred to brag about to your BG friends. All the while the "bad" players would be back to the game they loved, EQ2...the whole world and all the zones, the quest and HQs, all the boring things those players have done before, but with that boredom erased by the threat of the other faction...wanting the same quests, and mobs, and traveling the same paths. Forming guilds on opposite sides, where you know who your friends are, and enemies are, as they don't change on the next queue.
Ignore what I'm saying, and start with silly "red versus blue" arguments. Whatever makes you feel better. Go on, let it all out. And in the end, EQ2 PVP will die for good, drowning in the tears of those who would rather be mad than find a solution. Got it? Great.
Back to the start. Our server is done. It wasn't intended to be a home to temporary players (a glorified battlegrounds). Too many changes that will never be reversed. Will soe allow free transfers? Merge.
I know what Maer's problem is with Naggy being cut off from BG's. He likes BG's and he knows that if Naggy were to be where the PvP is and cut off from BG they would end up like 30-89 ( or whatever the higher lv cap is for them now ) agnostic BG. In other words dead. Waiting for hours on end for others to Q up. He knows players would leave his server and come back to Naggy or start over on Naggy as the population increases. I cannot believe that it took me this long to see it but it is the only logical reason for Maer to be here and arguing with every legitimate good idea posted that could help our server.
Lol. The only ideas I'm arguing with are: 1. Battleground needs to disappear or be disabled for Nagafen to exist as a server and 2. Enough people will come to Nagafen, given proper changes, to make it the highest pop server on EQ2, which is what a healthy PVP population would look like. Both of these are incorrect statements, and the dev team is not going to put the work into revamping PVP if it doesn't potentially include everyone playing EQ2 right now, without them having to start over in an 11 year old game. You should know that I haven't done BG's in forever, and the only time I did, it was just to hang out with friends from other servers. You should also know that BG population is not exactly impressive, and I would much rather have an organic means of participating in PVP combat than having battlegrounds as the only option.
Yeah I would hate for someone to have to spend 7 whole days making a new character or heaven forbid pay to transfer ONE character to Nagafen. They aren't/wouldn't be "starting over in an 11 year old game". Give me a break.
There is legitimately no reason NOT to allow other servers to participate in Nagafen PVP. It NEEDS the population to succeed. You're not going to have a constant shuffle of people to different sides, or a queue to enter or anything ridiculous like that. It's just a temporary character transfer, and if you think the ability to "grow up" outside of Nagafen is unfair.. that is ALREADY the case. Character transfers to Nagafen are already enabled. The only problem is, they cost money. And if "FREE TRANSFERS FOR NAGAFEN PLAYERS!" is part of the solution, then free transfers TO Nagafen would be a better one. Yet, no one would one-way transfer or even reroll, abandon all of their friends on their other server and engage in a commitment they don't even know will be enjoyable. How you can argue that people should be able to transfer OFF of Nagafen for free, but not transfer TO Nagafen for free is absolutely mindblowing. Seriously.
They can transfer with friends to Nagafen. If someone's friends to not wish to join them, then a decision has to be made. Of all the people that have ALREADY transferred OFF Nagafen, did they leave their friends? More than likely they followed friends to AB, and would come back together anyway.
Transfer, with friends, to Nagafen. That is the worst set of 5 words ever to hit this forum. I don't know what game you're playing, but that is not how this works. Nobody is going to pay money to transfer TO a dead server with a high degree of neglect and a questionable ruleset, even if corrected. With that, you're telling me that you're fine with people PAYING to transfer to Nagafen and back, but you're not fine with it being free? Or should it just be free to transfer OFF of Nagafen? So the few people who pay to go there can realize the server is still empty, and then abruptly go back where they came from? Take a moment and read what you're saying. And then ask your Nagafen friends how great that would be. Free character transfers, at will, are necessary in an old game with a suffering population. Let people go where they want to go. If you want them to go to PVP, make PVP "good" again.
Well now we know where you stand. No use having a constructive debate on the topic when you say things like this.
