Harvesting change or RNG love ?

[p]The cost of rares has nothing to do with the value of crafting, it's in the desirability of the final product. Once apon a time i made tons of money selling Handcrafted gear despite the fact that the components had essentially 0 value. [/p][p]The fact is the powers that be a while back increased the drop rate of loot at all levels (Treasured, Legendary & Fabled). Just before Dof came out i had about half hand crafted/treasured and a couple mastercrafted items. Just before KoS came out i had a full set of mastercrafted and a couple legendary items. Before EoF came out i had a full set of legendary, and a couple treasured items that are better than any legendary item. Since the game has released my playstyle hasn't changed and is 90% solo with an occasional pickup group or guild group.[/p][p]Now since MC gear is only slightly better than the average treasured item (worse than the best treasured items) that even at T7 sells for about 16gp and you can buy mid range legendary items at T7 for about 80gp (and it's only that high because of transmuting). Therefore the only way anyone would want a Mastercrafted piece of gear is if it prices somewhere between those extremes. Splitting the difference means on average MC gear needs to sell for about 30-35gp at T7, and since fuel costs aprox 10 gp (i think), you have to be able to buy rares for 20-25gp just to break even.[/p][p]The abundance of rares is actually a boon for crafting since the lower prices will mean a greater demand for our product, greater profit margin and therefore more profit. As it is about the only sales we make are to twinkers who want the convenience of a buying a full set of armor, and the occasional piece of gear that doesn't have much drop lot for that slot.[/p][p]The person above is mad because he speculated on the market (buying cheap rares, and reselling them for more) and is getting burned. I feel sorry for him, but this has nothing to do with crafting whatsoever.[/p]

[p]I have 12 adventurers and 9 crafters, i also don't raid, and i predominantly solo/2box and still make enough cash to get buy. [/p][p]I for one have no sympathy whatsoever for those who horded rares trying to get rich. Plenty of us harvest/craft purely for the love of crafting and not to try and get rich, unlike all those level 70 adventurers/level 1 artisans i see cherrypicking just the ore nodes for rares to sell.[/p][p]While the drop rates were a little high, i wouldn't like to see it reduced back to what it was, somewhere more in the middle would be perfect. [/p]

Kudos to you Domino for addressing this. Too bad the forums didn't dissolve into a single negative point of singularity while you were a Fan Faire. Take some anger management courses people! Sheesh!

Jrral@Unrest wrote:

[p]Bingo. How many are in it to have fun and how many are in it to play Monopoly? Fool a little with the market in real life and you run the risk of getting burned. [/p][p]How many PvP crafters are honestly upset? I know that there are two sets of rules for the game, if nerfs or adjustments are coming, hopefully they'll take that into consideration. I can sell a pristine imbued steel rapier for more than I bought my xegonite one for. :hunf: [/p]

[p]I love the fact that we now get an idea of how harvesting rolls are calculated. Makes me feel that those buffs are worthwhile now.[/p][p]As to the "problem" of rares increasing in drop rate, I don't mind a bit.[/p][p]If you're a casual player it means you can finally get some decent armor at the lower levels without having to spend mega cash. 1PP for 1 piece of steel ? Crazy. Now I can buy 1 for a lot less, perhaps only 30g or so on my server. This makes it possible for me to buy a whole set of armor. Previously I just wouldn't have bothered with any MC, so this change is actually making me give more money to crafters, not less.[/p][p]As for those who have stored up items and now complain they are worth less...well, I don't even know where to start on how wrong that attitude is so will just say "You know what, you're right. Now move along".[/p][p]If rare prices drop then hopefully the farmers will stop. Same goes for those players who run bot harvesters whilst they are AFK.[/p][p]In my view (I have level 4 lvl 70 crafters BTW) crafters should make their money from their time and effort, not from marking up the costs on the raws. I spent a lot of cash on those recipies and also a long time levelling, and if you don't want to pay for that effort then you can level your own crafter to make your item. People sometimes say "but making the item is only a few clicks of the mouse" to which I say "it won't take you long to make it yourself then will it ?". They usually accept that they're not paying for the act of making the item, but the time and expense of getting to a point where you are able to make it. [/p][p]If rares drop in price it won't effect my business model at all, it just means there will be more people looking for a crafter to make stuff so I have a much larger potential pool of customers. I guess there will be other crafters than undercut me on the amount they charge, but hey, that's market forces and I don't have a problem with that at all.[/p][p] [/p][p] [/p]

[p]The one part of all of this that people are ignoring is the supply side of the equation. Not just harveting increases, but the price decreases making it less likely that 'bots' and professional harvesters will want to spend their time doing what is no longer worth their time. This will cause an over all drop in the supply which will, in the end, counter some of the high supply we are seeing now.[/p][p]I see the prices coming down more, but IMO, this isn't a bad thing, since MC gear is supposed to fall between treasured and legendary, that is where it's cost should be too. Right now, MC gear runs with alot of legendary in price and well over the cost of the treasured. This should allow for pricing to be more within the tiering as it should be.[/p][p]and anyone who thinks 1pp+ for a steel cluster was a good price... Well, let's just say, I think you need to seek medical advice for head trauma.[/p]

People say they craft for the fun of it.... other say I love it it will level the palying field.... easy mode!.... Others say hey I can now sell a ton more! I will make more money as rares are so cheap! Come on people extrapolate beyond your noses Yeah palladium is down to 9g.. and still going lower.... so now you can pick up a palladium and craft it into that 60g item? Sell 10 a day? Nope.... hey maybe you could craft it into a 40g item? Nope I know you can currently craft it into a 22g item with 10 other crafters buying palladiums for 9g and all list em at 22g.... BUT WAIT IT GETS BETTER.... hey my 22g palladium jewelery isn't selling... why? ohhhhh!!! becuase 5 other people undercut me..... I guess I better lower mine.... ok hmm 12g for a finished palladium piece.. and there are still 10 people trying to list and sell to the limted consumer market.... So if you arguement was you will be making more money.. nope.. and it is getting worse hour by hour.... trust me you are not going to sell 50 palladium bangles to make up for the 2 you sold before patch..... OK OK OK so now we look at the adventurers view... hey buddy I just got full mastercrafted... all adept ii's for my toon at lvl 20 and only paid 2 plat!..... SO? Everyone has that now.... ohh ok nothing special then.. just the norm... Taking out the incentives is stupid.... someone pointed out that why not make a button that poofs you to lvl 70? OK OK people complain about the grind.... leveling from 10 -70.... but you know what? with all great gear and your whole groups having great gear..... where is any sort of challenge or feeling of accomplishment? It actually becomes more of a grind .... and leveling is just time consuming and boring... I could go on forever..... but I don't convery my thoughts as well as others.... Here is an example about a year ago they made it so every named dropped master chest for 3 days... like the goblin easy named in dof etc... masters where being farmed 10-40 a day lvl 50+... people told the few who said it was going to kill the master market to shut up! They loved the drop rate.... They only pictured what they were getting and not how it affected the server market.... soon masters where everywhere.. evryone was fully decked out and masters were dirt cheap.... everyone started to say hey this is no good.. masters are worth nothing and no fun to get... More thought has to be put into these changes... and next time maybe done gradually?... keep tweaking the rate until the desired affect happens to the servers.... I highly doubt they wanted to make rares like 5g etc for t3.. if I am wrong.. then there is no point arguing or posting anymore anyways.... I am all for getting rare stuff to the normal players etc... but don't we all want it to mean something when it does? I am sure people will pick a line in my bable and flame the heck out of me... that is ok... Even though I took full advantage of harvesting masters those 3 days they dropped like water way back... I was then one of the few who was saying they needed to nerf it fast... took 3 days and 2- 3 nerfs... before it did all the harm. Anyways.. this is a forum so debate! I just see no possible good coming from this big and deep a change.... And yes, I think steel, feysteel etc should have been upped some also ...... but like I said I got 67 t4 raws other day 2 hours.... that is insane.. yeah you say I should be happy but not when it means nothing...

[p]Lathaine, I'm not as handy with manipulating quoted materials as some folks, so I've numbered your paragraphs and will try to respond to them each because I do share some of your concerns.[/p][p]1) just for clarify theory people have, here it's real number, drop rate are not 0,22% better not even 50% better, it's almost 1000% better.[/p][p]Like you, I agree that the percentages we are being given by Domino are not consistent with my experience while harvesting or my observations of price changes on the broker. I don't know that I would go as high as your 1000%, but my guess is that rare drops have increased to 2.5 to 3 times what they were. I also share your concern that the devs seem not at all fased by what this means to the game. (I won't share your focus on the economy, but I think the devs haven't considered how many mobs they will have to scale up and how many encounters they will have to change in response to a massive increase in the number of twinks.)[/p][p]2) When befor you could harvest 3H without have rare, or able to get 10 rare in same period time depend on bad or good run, atm you get 20 to 40 rare in the same time and even in bad run you ll have more than 15 rare where befor you could have NO ONE.[/p][p]Maybe the increase is as dramatic as you suggest, but I did spend 20 minutes harvesting T4 without getting a rare, so I think this claim of yours is hyperbolic.[/p][p]3) Easy to understand how it was important to fix it the first day... in less than 2 day the price of rare dropped half, mean a really BIG increase. One week and price will still drop even long time after it will be fix. It's too late. really too late.[/p][p]Here's where I agree with you most strongly. It really does appear to be too late. People have already stockpiled rares by the stacks of 50. I stopped at 200 coral, 200 silver, 250 alkaline loam, 200 jasper, 150 palladium, 100 malleable loam, 100 opal, 100 ruthenium, 100 ductile loam, 100 ruby, 100 rhodium, 100 pearl, 100 vanadium, 75 moonstone, and 50 acrylia. (Domino is welcome to check my account to verify that horde.)[/p][p]The crazy thing is I am not a big-time player in the rare market. I suspect based on watching the broker that there are scads of more serious players who make my own horde look trivial. [/p][p]These rares are already banked by dozens of players on every server.[/p][p]Now, for the sake of getting somewhere, PLEASE DON'T THINK ABOUT THE PRICE OF THE RARES, AS THAT HAS ONLY AN INCIDENTAL RELATIONSHIP TO THE WAY MOST PLAYERS PLAY THE GAME. Instead, think about the forthcoming release of Kunark and the fact that the new T1 and T2 content is going to be a huge turnoff to most players because it will present ZERO CHALLENGE to them with their AD3 spells and their complete sets of m/c gear.[/p][p]Like you, I'm astonished that the devs appear completely unconcerned about this flood of rare materials. But even more like you, I really think it's too late to do anything about it at this point. The rares are already in banks by the thousands. [/p][p]Since it is too late in my opinion, I don't see the point in complaining about it. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how the devs react when they finally realize that they have to react. Reducing the rare drop rate won't help--at least not for a long while. Horders could keep the market supplied probably longer than any dev is willing to concede.[/p][p]The choices the combat devs will have to make will involve making the mobs stronger (and having to recode mobs for all the T1-T5 areas of the game), setting up a more complicated social aggro system, or nerfing m/c gear. I've already indicated which solution I suspect they'll opt for (nerfage), but it could be that they have a grand plan in place. We'll see how they respond when they respond. But right now, it looks like they just don't see how important it is for them to respond in some way.[/p][p]4) Real mastercraft player cant enjoy this, only player who no want lose time in EQ can enjoy this, you want everything quick, rare was not supposed to be that way.[/p][p]Here's a rebuttal that I can imagine to your take on this point (which I happen to share): Maybe their market research indicates that most players really want to blow through the lower tiers in top gear with no challenge at all. Maybe they intend to leave drop rates at this level and to allow m/c gear to stay just as good as it is so that folks can get to 80 lickety-split. But my suspicion is that they don't really "intend" anything--that this rare flood is a glitch that just isn't receiving attention because Domino has tradeskill writs to think about and Smedley has his card game to think about and no one is really thinking about the longterm consequences of universal twinkage.[/p][p]5) And sorry domino for me with this you lose all credit for all great thing you have done befor, why give some love to crafter and then kill it ? A real attention was need, but i see it's also community here who keep crying, and jumping they dont see more far than their nose.[/p][p]I don't see any reason to cast aspersions on Domino, who is trying to respond to the crafting community according to her best sense of how to do her job. I think it's sort of crazy that whoever approved the change to rare drop rates appears not to have thought through the consequences of doing so on the game. I also think that whatever was approved made a sort of mathematical sense to the approving authority that has NOTHING to do with the real in-game consequences of the change.[/p][p]I'm beginning to think that SOE doesn't consider MMORPG economies very thoughtfully. I always assumed there were statistical models and sound theories behind decisions to drain __ money from or pump ___ money into the economy. I assumed there was someone at SOE who watched certain economic indicators for signs of duping or other exploits. I'm pretty well convinced at this point that there is no such person--no system for monitoring the economy. The decision to increase the rare drop rate, multiply the number of potential sellers by 7, and increase the amount of time each seller remains active by 7 days is a fair indication that there is no careful monitoring of the EQ2 economy (a pity in my opinion--since there are presumably scads of grad students in business/economics who would be happy to do it as some kind of work-study). The powers that be clearly think nothing of introducing multiple huge variables into the economic equation all at once--so that there is really no pinpointing which causes prompt which effects. If SOE bothered to appoint an Alan Greenspan type figure to each MMORPG economy, I suspect their crackdowns on RMT would meet with far greater success, but how could such a person perform his job when a single update can introduce so many new factors into an economy?[/p][p]6) PS : for people who say price no want say anything, that go up and down, it's nothing real. Price is EVERYTHING, humanity is rule by money, economie is everything. It's the only way to say if thing have value or not. and the value of craft was never so low, and will drop a lot in several day again, perhaps week or month. And dont think price of mastercraft will not follow price of rare.[/p][p]Although I am able to follow all of your points, it sounds to me as if English is not your first language--which may be why your tone comes across as shrill and desperate. Whether you horded rares for profit or not, the way you've phrased this argument makes you sound like a failed speculator. You aren't going to get any sympathy that way--not even from me, since I'm one of the failed speculators who bought rares while they were on the way down. (They still appear to be a ways from bottoming out, so I've lost money on my "horde" as well as on the m/c gear that I crafted and put on the broker before the rate change. I estimate that I have lost more than 200 plat as a consequence of this change, but there's a lot to be said for an "easy come, easy go" attitude. Seriously, dude, it's a game. We took our chances and lost. Try something else. There's no reason to get upset.)[/p][p]As long as you keep barking about the economy, the adventurers are just going to ignore you. You have to focus on things that matter to players. Then again, the devs' lack of attention to this crazy spike in rares has me wondering whether you are the only one who is failing to think about what people look for in a game--a sense of challenge, a sense of accomplishment, and fun. [/p][p] [/p][p] [/p]

kukubird wrote:

There is NO way a piece of mastercrafted gear should cost 2-3x the cost of a piece of legendary of the similiar tier. It is 'itemized' to fall between the treasured and legendary, so that is where it's price should be too. That is where the difficulty of obtaining it should be as well.
This 'increase' in raws is something that has been coming ever since LU24 and the supreme nerf crafted gear got, it is just now going to be 'worth it' to get mastercrafted. I refused to make any of my alts feysteel armor. Why, might you ask? Because I could come up with no rational judgement other than vanity to purchase armor that would cost AT MINIMUM of 7p to make for a level 32 toon. Not when treasured gear (while not nearly as good) would suit me nearly as well.

[p] [/p][p] In a guild with 200 accounts no one has experienced the kind fo increase in rare finds that some folks talk about. 67 rares in 2 hrs? Exaggeration or flat out lie. I have been out gathering and still feel lucky when I find one. From t1-t6. I have toons all diff lvls and I gather with them all when I play them. [/p][p] You say you have lost estimated 200 plat? How did you lose it? You harvest your rares therefore anything you get is profit because it cost you nothing. You dont lose what you never had. EXAMPLE: So you had 10 items that went for 1 plat each. Now you have 10 items that go for 10g each. Does that mean you lost 9 plat? No you're gaining 1 plat. because you didnt have the 10 plat to start with you had 10 items to start with. it is profit either way you look at it unless you're a speculator and lost out, tough break get over it to thsoe who speculated. [/p][p] Some say it makes the content of game to easy PVE that is. Umm so if I have a high lvl to give plat to my lowbie char or just buy plat from china that means i have the right to breeze threw content? If MC makes game to easy thats an entirely diff issue that what it costs or how its obtained. Not even taking into account PVP servers where MC is the minimum required to survive one you hit lvl 12+. W/o mc and adept 3 you most likely wont stand a chance vs all the twinsk faction/title farmers.[/p][p] There is one reason only for complaint you dont get to make tons of plat anymore by selling t2 rare for 80g to twinks and plat buyers. Don't hide behind newbs want the content to be easy because noobs dont buy your gear or rares they can't afford it. Now they can. Twinks and plat buyers are your customers at low levels not the new player. So now you cant milk twinks and plat buyers as much but you gained new players as your customer. evens it out. Speaking of higher tier.[/p][p]The higher the tier the lower the price of rares I have noticed because less demand in general due to having other armor options. We can kill names for good items or camp a name or raid or buy pvp armor.[/p][p]Good deal it is.[/p]

Judge... flat out lie huh? Ok maybe you should go try it and then see what you say.... and it is only for t4 and below. Again, you included being lucky to get a rare in t2? Come on you didn't even try for more then a node..or would know that t2 currently you can get over 30 rares in an hour.... It is completely insane. But thanks for calling me a liar.. I appreciate it. Also I welcome the Dev that is working on this to go check my logs..... and see if my number are correct... and when you see they are.. was this intended I ask again. You further assume that my only concern is that I can't make tons of plat, like I had some magical stranglehold on the economy that nobody with a little effort ( gasp! ) could repeat. Sorry, that is not the case, even though I don't see why effort shoudln't be rewarded. I am posting this because I am concerned for the game I have played for 2 years.... You sound like the people in general chat when almost every named ( trash or not ) was dropping master 50+...... Yay! this is great! Don't nerf the master drops... well it devasted the market... evryone 50+ had masters and tons of extra selling for nothing on broker... until they nerfed it back to normal. I am afraid people that make the arguments they do for a non challenging game whatsoever are not looking at the big picture or will be gone after they are bored in a month. But I truly do thank you for calling me a liar! No why don't you go actually try it for 1 solid hour of gathering to see. Lastly, just becuase you choose not to equip your toon in mastercrafted and adept iii's etc.... and treasured was fine for you.... I ask why shouldn't there be different levels of geared players... with reward given for effort in attaining items you have to work a little for? Now there is no effort... and well with it no sense of reward. If you don't think there should... maybe a first person shooter with just one type of gun is more your playstyle.

Whoa. Dudes. It's a game. Domino is tweaking. Relax.

[p]Whoa all, please keep the input constructive. If this continues to degrade into a fight club, it'll be locked.[/p][p] [/p][p]~Gnobrin.[/p]

I wasnt the one you are talking to here but I have to say, I *did* go harvesting for an hour the other day and definately did not get 30 rares lol Am not calling you a lier, more so lucky as I would have loved to get the rares people are talking about. On a side note I think its crazy that alot of the lower tiered rares go for so much, it makes it near impossible for new players to get the much needed gear made

[p]I've harvested a bit over 5 hours over the past 2 days in EL. I've been getting around 6-8 rares/hour in that time, though it is (as all things RNG) streaky -- I got 3 rares across 3 consecutive nodes last night (1 rare/node for a run of 3 nodes, that is), but also had a 20ish minute run w/ no rares. Interestingly enough, I also saw almost half of my rares from last night as rare woods - seemed weird given the fact that the real upswing is supposed to be in ore/rock rares, although there were admittedly a LOT of wood nodes around (seriously, who is clearcutting Norrath's forests? ).[/p][p]One other interesting point -- the rate at which I'm getting imbue materials now is actually as low as the rate at which I would get rares pre-GU37, about 1/hour.[/p][p]Disclaimer: I speak only for my own experience over few limited runs, & make no attempt to deduce the actual mathematics being applied to harvesting gamewide from this. [/p]

Bear in mind that individual experiences with regard to harvesting will vary wildly based on harvesting tier, time spent, the RNG etc. So people will naturally experience big differences in how much success they have while harvesting. There is no need to discredit other people reports on rares gained/per hour for this reason. The real measure of rare supply is the broker, because it measures the collective rare supply (i.e. a bigger sample of behaviour). And the broker has shown a huge and dramatic price drop that began with the introduction of the update. Having said that, I'd agree with the suggestion that imbuing materials appear to have become the new rare, because I don't seem to be picking them up at any greater rate. The real impacts of the economic changes may only become evident in a month or more down the track, because that is the point where more people will have levelled their crafters under the new higher speed levelling system. The EQII economy may progressively move along the continuum from free market to a more socialist economic model; individuals will not only be crafting for themselves, but also for their guild. Theoretically a guild needs only one of each trade at 70 crafting and it never has to buy from the broker again. However, this may be counter-balanced by the reduced cost of goods, encouraging people to buy more often and not spend the time/resources required to level a crafter. Some people will never have any interest crafting no matter what. It'll be interesting to see how this pans out. The economy is definitely different. But a different economy is not a broken economy. It's just a matter of adapting.

[p]My experience:[/p][p]I set a kitchen timer for one hour and went to Antonica and just harvested. This is the results when the timer dinged:[/p][p]1 Severed Bone 2 Rough Coral 2 Glowing Items 3 Cured Pelt 4 Sisal Roots 5 Silver Clusters 8 Blackened Iron Clusters[/p][p]That's 23 rares and 2 imbues in exactly one hour. That's a bit much don't you think? (Not that I mind getting rares for a change, but they're not so rare now)[/p][p]I am a 350 in all harvesting though, so that might have helped, but it is still a bit much.[/p]

[p]Amen brudda.[/p][p]Even though I have fears about the consequences this will have on the gear I am allowed to make 2 months from now, I am having a blast in the new economy.[/p][p]Powders and infusions are still largely overpriced, but it's a cinch to buy the rares I need for a half dozen ad3s, whip them up, mung them, and make legendary adornments I never bothered with before. I'm also having a heck of a lot of fun finally getting to make the jeweler/alchy ad3s that I could never afford to keep in stock with the old prices on alkali loam. (I know folks think the changes don't really reach into T5, but the simple fact is that alkali loam used to run 1.5 to 2p on my server, and now it's 60-80 gp. Here I think Domino's doubling of a specific node's rare worked just about exactly as intended, but I may be oversimplifying.)[/p][p] [/p]

Well if I sounded a bit confrontational I apologize Anyways, yes I am level 70... 48 run speed mount... the lvl 60+ gather tools.... so basically the fastest you can get for harvesting.... I do know that for example on my lvl 40 tradeskiller I don't get close to that amount of rares.. and maybe even fewer then 8 harvesting for example el. Harvesting can be boring but until it is hotfixed I am making a game out of gathering rares.. see how many I can get t4 with my 70 in an hour.. and try to beat it lol.

12g for a T3 item? Umm... I hate to break it to you, but my formula for pricing's 1g per tier of the item plus fuel cost (which really only becomes a factor at T5 and higher). This may explain why your market's limited...