That would be because you don't care for me as a player and are cherry-picking portions of my suggestions and responses to create a caricature of a serious proposal. And, no. Have just pulled Klandicar, his power drain has been reduced 80% from where it was Monday. While it's perfectly within the bounds of reason, now, it doesn't change the fact that the fix to flow had a significant impact. As to the voice of reason, you were the one claiming in the other thread that 2-group flow worked just fine post-patch, and...yeah. It doesn't work at all. Now, I've taken suggestions from both of you seriously. Try responding to them, seriously.
Ssaerasha you are filled with so much anger it seems, I don't understand why. the power drain change was barely a change people said. if it is well within the bounds of reason, why haven't you killed it yet? your claim was that the power drain was the only thing stopping you. and now you are claiming it's fixed. I never claimed such a thing. I said a friend said he could still do it. let me explain to you, that doesn't mean I claim it as true. I am glad it doesn't work tbh cause it shouldn't, they finally fixed a bug needing fixing and it doesn't change raid content at all since all the fights are within reason less QQ on the forums
And cue the accusations of anger. Followed by minimizing my claims by claiming that "people said", and then "just because [people] said doesn't mean it's true" to deny the next. By looking through my ACT logs, I can see, in hard numbers, that his power drain was nerfed by approximately 80%. That's good enough for me. As to why we haven't killed it yet, we can't seem to figure out the DotW/Bubble/Curse mechanic mix, and aren't running 10 healers. So...one obstacle fixed, another to deal with. Completely irrelevant to the actual point of this thread, and, just in case anyone actually is about to fall for your strawman, I never claimed that the power drain was the *only* thing stopping us from killing Kland. Now, we have four logical fallacies you've employed in one post. Your trolling has hit the point of being dull. Go bother someone else.
it's amusing cause you think I am trolling. I am stating in plain normal text that coercers are fine, the fix was indeed intended and should have happened and perfectly fine since it changes nothing except causes coercers to be slightly more alert. people these days tend to think "trolling" is just something to call someone when they disagree with you. but maybe your ideas are bad because they aren't needed. I'll fight the good fight for coercers when it's actually needed
"it's amusing cause you think I am trolling." - Okay, let's assume you're not. "I am stating in plain normal text that coercers are fine" - Straw Man Argument. After the subsequent changes to go in to encounters, yes, they are "fine" in the sense that they have not had an effective nerf from their pre-change performance. I've agreed with this four times so far. This is number five. Please stop pretending that this is still a point of contention. "the fix was indeed intended and should have happened and perfectly fine" - Straw Man Argument. Again, agreed, and in fact...hmm...let me go check here...oh, yes! The first sentence of my OP! "Mana Flow, yes, was bugged for 2-group flow, and yes, it really needed to be fixed". "it changes nothing except causes coercers to be slightly more alert" - Flavors of Ignorantio Elenchi and Dicto Simpliciter. It actually has no effect on forcing a coercer to be more "alert" (spike drain across two groups just means only one is getting a flow, instead of both). It does have a significant impact on raid power levels in certain encounters, but not, after mobs have been adjusted, an unrecoverable difference. "people these days tend to think "trolling" is just something to call someone when they disagree with you." - Trolling is baiting in an attempt to get a rise out of someone. So far, we have you attacking my proposals with hearsay, selective attacks, changing your position every time you're countered, and just straight-up ignoring facts that are inconvenient to your actual position ("Ssae is bad and has no ideas worth listening to!" is the best summary I can come up with). And, when called out on your rather obvious efforts, your response boiled down to, "UMADBRO?!" "but maybe your ideas are bad because they aren't needed." - Petitio Principii, Argumentum Ad Ignorantium, Non Sequitur. My ideas are the only ones being presented seriously, and I've made multiple attempts to engage you, Voxom (Kookiez), and others in a serious discussion. Every attempt to do so has resulted in the effort being ignored. Voxom - "Something needs to be done to spice up this class, there's a reason why every guild in this game is recruiting Coercers." Ucala - "but Voxoms idea to increase some kinda utility for melee dps they bring I am all for that" Huh. You had agreed with me, and now that it's no longer convenient to attack me from that position, you change positions. "I'll fight the good fight for coercers when it's actually needed" - Argumentum ad Populum. Huh. That's...a lot of logical fallacies and complete failure to discuss any premise of the OP. At this point, I'm going to cease responding to you, unless and until you produce something relevant.
If you had a good suggestion, trust me I'd be all for it. Basically the gist of your proposals are to make one of the simplest classes to play even more simple when it should be the opposite. The class needs more complexity to it, not less. Improving the current buffs with your suggestions hardly make the class any more desirable. As it currently stands, unless there are significant power drains to a fight, a swashbuckler would provide more overall raid dps and group dps utility than a coercer would, and a swashbuckler comes with a ton of debuffs. Coercer does have one advantage though, it's so easy/mindless/repetitive that it's probably the best class to lead raids on.
The class is busy, not complex. You are correct, there. So consider what I asked about. You proposed some sort of temp buff for melee that required planning, instead of just hitting on cooldown. I tossed around a couple of proposals, but neither of them was feeling right to me, so I asked for feedback. You can find them on Page 2. You're also pointing out debuffs, which I agree on. While we have a lot of resist debuffs, we pretty much lack depth in that aspect in a raid environment. Resist debuffs are also at the point of being underwhelming, due to their prevalence. Mobs are often at their absolute cap for such debuffs. Overall utility, looking at more than DPS, changes things a little. Enraging Demeanor is underwhelming given the source class, but Coercive Healing is an excellent buff (Needs an effect for Channelers!) and Siren's Stare is also a solid buff. Velocity is dated and barely useful, and Plink is also showing its age. What would you do with these?
Meh, I don't really care for coming up for a suggestion to improve dps utility (mostly because SoE would just ignore it and come up with something entirely different anyway) but it would have to be relevant whether it's a static low increase to group wdb/flurry/cb or a short duration "gimmick" spell as you put it along the lines of increased CB or something like Combat Mastery. Really though, now that I think about it a lot of the focus on fixing Coercers should go back to the other half of the intent of a Coercer which is controlling the fight via aggro management (since CC isn't going to happen). Coercive Shout is an OK ability but it is trumped by Troubadour's Abhorrent verse. Thought Snap and Amnesia are essentially dead spells. I think improving aggro management abilities would add a different and "fun" aspect to a Coercer (I'd love to poke fun at my tanks and tell them how I carried their aggro through fights), and hell my Warlock would appreciate it as well.
Bluntly, if we get some stuff hashed out...well. Yeah. Not a good track record for listening, but what the hey, dump something solid on them and they might take a shine to part of it. Static, could probably push to have Velocity changed from multi to WDB or flurry. Or try to get WDB added to something like Signet. A part of me wants to see one of our buffs that nears "completely useless" made good again, but as a raider, I also want to minimize the amount of concentration we're burning. Dynamic, either a large WDB boost (Kind of like CM, except instead of max hits, a big burst of WDB, like 200?) or 100% flurry (Time Warp for auto-attacks?). Perhaps wrap it up with a proc-boosting effect that only works on melee swings, so timing it for during a VC or similar would boost the output there. Thought Snap almost needs to be a 2-part spell, one part that "assigns" a fighter, and the other part that forces a mob to target that fighter. So if you have a memwiping boss, you buff the MT and then can kick the mob back to him, or with adds, buff that tank and force the add to them. Maybe remove any taunt component, and just make it a 4s-8s target lock, to give the tank time to build threat on the mob, without making it straight-up easymode tanking. Amnesia's a hard spell to do something with, because it was originally intended as a pseudo-evac of sorts. Perhaps just leave its function as-is, except make it work on everything. Just if you reset a raid mob, you reset the whole encounter. Would reduce recovery times (reset once it's certain to be a wipe) and give coercers a tool to undo a facepull. The other option I can see is giving it a Swipe-like effect, making the mob take longer between recasts of its abilities.
Add something to Coercers to make them useful to scout dps groups. Add something to both chanters to make them more fun to people want to play them more. (Far too many guilds looking for chanters). Do NOT consolidate a load of already current abilities into less.
How do you figure it was a derail when it was a direct response to one of your comments. I even did you the favor of quoting it for you in case you had already forgotten. But nice try. Regarding Klandicar specifically, when you figure out where the bulk of the drained power comes from, it is easy to "manage". But that wasn't an "80% nerf" to Klandicar, it's just a by-product of your guild making progress in figuring the fight out.
I have a couple of hard suggestions right up there if you care to provide concrete thought and feedback. Four posts above your own. Go ahead and reread the rest of that post, and not just the snippet you selected. Note the part in bold. Wrong. I was not counting Curse of Chaos for either number. Cognitive Evisceration dropped from 9.5k average drain with a frequency of 3s to a 1.7k average drain every 4s.
You mean the part where you stated that your previous estimate of 5 was an exaggeration and that now apparently the magic number is in fact 10. Yeah, I saw that. That's why I had quoted the 10 instead of the statement about 5. Actually I'm probably one of the few people well-positioned to look at this objectively, due to having my coercer as a 'raiding alt'. Coercers are currently one of the simplest classes to play and play well - but, because of that, one of the most boring. The class itself needs some depth added to the gameplay aspect, because spending 90%+ of your time pressing the same ~half a hotbar of abilities is far from engaging. I can't comment about the level of the drain on CE post-Thursday's nerf, because we had already killed it before then. But I can say that we never ran into any real power issues with our 2 coercer/2 illusionist setup (and that was at the frequency of 7-10+k drain per 4s on CE), but it is entirely possible that our two new chanter apps are amazing.
Not one of your suggestions make the class any more fun in any way. Which to me, is one of the biggest issues for Coercers and getting people to play them. All the suggestions are basically copies of other buffs (Timewarp, Combat Mastery etc etc). If time is going to be spent, it may as well be something unique. Could be something totally random, like a buff you cast, which activates and lasts for 10 seconds. You then have to cast a 2nd part to it before those 10 seconds end. The closer to the full duration, the more power you regen. Miss the 10s window, you lose it all. (I know Lag etc could cause issues, its just a random idea of how you can potentially make the class more challenging).
Swapped from playing Dirge to Coercer about 4 months ago in raids due to the fact that Coercers are rare and trying to replace one who finally says enough with this class is tough! Got to say that I quite enjoy it and it has many tools which make it a kinda fun class to play (but then I was playing a dirge!!!!!!!!!) On the original post, I have to say it is not a issue, power regen in the new expac, and we are currently on Grendish in ToV is minimal, in fact the only tricky power drain fights have been in Siren's when people are incapable of dispelling mobs! However it is all doable so as long as they don't suddenly insert POW mana drain fights then the nerf is irrelevant. The bigger issue though is the simple question, why are folk not playing coercers? Nerfing power regen is not the reason....
They don't play coercers b/c there is not many and serious damage buffs to a group or a raid to even talk about. Everything is outdated. And they are on a bottom of dps list. Barely above healers and tanks. Depends on a player of course. But at average even bards outparse them. If there is no buffs like illys have or no any spells can give something to coerces to shine in their own damage output why to bother. People in general by nature are competitive and prefer to be on top rather on a bottom.
Have to say that is not my experience on the DPS front, I tend to hold my own with the bards (usually around 1.5 - 2.5 million) and only the Fury regularly rocks the parse. It seems that at my level of raiding T1 is 3 to 5 million, bards and chanters 1.5 to 3 million, tanking tanks around a million with the healers. With the exception of a DPS setup tank (SK or Zerker) or a Fury it kinda sits around there and that is quite balanced. Obviously there are some fights where you parse higher (mutation for example) but this kinda holds true. What makes the Coercer dull though is what they do to get dps etc is rigid, this is the casting order period, so although there are a batch of buttons to press its almost a case of simon says, this is the order or your dps falls. Personally I don't think there is a massive amount of balancing needed for them, but by God they need something to make them think. For example on Dirge, you can think about timing charms, diety spells, buffs etc to build a awesome VC, you can chat with the group to buff you at the right moment etc. With the coercer its just a case of press xyz and you do well, press zyx and you fail and this is kinda dull
