Bleed through...from the post in the beta forums, some clarification please

Having useless abilities is hot the same as not being in a good spot.....

Defilers still have all the tools to solo heal in most situations and are fantastic in two heal situations. They can also handle hits over player hp better than almost anyone else. That is what matters.

Druids didn't have even half that good in KA.

So because druids were poorly designed in KA, shaman should be poorly designed now?

I'm saying that shaman need to learn how to be scrappy. They have a ton of healing abilities outside of straight wards, learn to rely on them more.

And to an extent, yes....I think a lot of shaman got lazy and have the mentality that they have to be the best of all the healers. Now it's a much more level playing field. Nobody is breezing through heals this expac.

I've always played a warden and added a shaman to the mix last expac. There is no sensible reason to have so many abilities that ignore some or all of shaman wards.
As a healer who has usually been at the bottom of the pack, I think the 'I've had it bad so somebody else should have it bad now'.. or even worse 'they DESERVE to have it bad' is, at best baffling and at worse detestable.
Right now, healing isn't enjoyable for anybody who wants to do more than spam heals and cures. It's even worse for shaman who lack tools to prevent deaths when the mobs decided ignore wards entirely. There have been fights on my mystic where my group ward doesn't go down in size, at all, while the groups health spikes down to yellow and my group heal is still on cooldown.

The only way to balance classes is merging them.

So everybody becomes warden and will be happy: ward + HoT !

a warden with the templar def temps and the mystic's buffs please !

I am not saying things shouldn't be adjusted, but it is downright childish how many shaman act like the sky is falling because their groups take damage now. Omg, they might have to bring a second healer to a heroic and they might have to use single target heals occasionally.

Healing is definitely a lot more work now and 100% bleedthrough obviously isnt the answer....I just can't stand the sky is falling comments when I see all of our guild's shaman doing just fine in heroics.

Imagine your HoTs and Groupheal dont heal to full and have a recast of 3-7 seconds. Or imagine your single heal wouldnt heal cause a HoT is still running on the target....
Thats Shamans life atm.

We are not complaining cause we have to heal more, its just how wards are working atm.
Its not fun when you cast the groupward, damage is coming in, group goes to yellow and NOT A SINGLE HP of the ward has been used.

Imagine that the tank gets hit for more damage than he has HP and all your heals/hots are worthless. That has been Druid life since toT.

Unless they make all the classes the same or bring back the pace of damage from DoF/KoS...this stuff is going to continue to happen.

Tier 2 heroics have giant hits that require a warding healer. Solo healing is just going to be less common outside of maybe Templar, Warden and exceptional players.

Been there. For years my group reactives did nothing on incoming ticking damage. Hell...as a templar I could basically only keep one person alive...and it wasn't me.

and yeah...bleed through is a bad idea.

Actually, I think furies might be better off for solo healing than wardens. The DR on cheeta is crazy good.

Not sure if its because our channeler is awesome (and she is) but channelers seem like they are in a good spot, too.

Very true. I've heard the same from the channelers I know.

and it was not fun when in KA or PoP u would cast all your heals but the group would die.

So we understand it's not fun as shaman right now, but u still have to remember it wasn't fun for druids in KA (how many times people said no we want a mystic in group during KA) and while PoP heroics all healers could do it - at the begining some fights were almost impossible for non warding healers - last named in inno 1, the 2 giants in torden 2, and in raid --> wolves, giants with circles and so on.
I remember in raid how many times I've been outhealed by BL but also dps classes and their ward. Quite frustrating.

so yeah it's a pain, but remember we've been there. at the start of KA, u wouldn't even dream to solo heal in heroic as druid. Here as mystic it's hard and not fun, but doable.

seems they can't balance heal/wards.

they either mess heals with too big damage or they mess with wards making them not effective.

they should just make heals and wards smaller or not be affected by potency the same way and remove BT. But no they want BT and they keep our heals full heal even with the heal debuff in zones.

Hitting t2's for the first time has begun to change my opinion about some of these changes. I don't think it's perfect, but I actually do think it is going in the right direction.

I was extremely pleased to see my wards getting broken and abilities like Kindred Restoration making an impact again for the first time in years. The fact that wards can now break gives gearing and spell levels a new meaning again.

As clintstat stated earlier, the mobs in t2 (at least currently while undergeared) are hitting for well over 100 million (and i had wards absorbing hits as high as 150 million). I don't know how well non-shaman healers are doing there, but as a shaman, I actually cared again about how big my wards were hitting. I needed supplemental heals from our beastlord, but I felt like with more gear and upgrades, this would probably not remain a necessity.

My biggest 'complaint' isn't the debuff. It's the fact that the debuff is a giant blackbox.
It affects different heals differently (on the same toon). This make it impossible to make intelligent choices about AA and casting order.
It means we have no way of telling if this or that art is 'bugged'.. or has been changed since the last time the instance was run.

We don't know why the devs have decided to withhold all useful information about how the healing debuff actually works from us, because they've declined to share that information as well.

I'm not worried about group taking damage.. as a matter of fact I enjoy it.. however what I don't enjoy is this.. I have a single ward, group ward, torpor (ward and hot) oberon (refreshing ward) ancestral barrier (if I choose it and will probably respect out of it, ward), ancestral support (ward) and soul shackle..none of those stack and.... I have to figure out in each zone after the pull of course or having had done it so many times, which ward I really want to cast because of this "magic debuff".. I have a single small heal, single big heal, group heal, and channeling.. guess I can throw in a worthless heal pet just because lol...as mermut has said a few times now, even with wards on and bleed through, even those are sometimes wasted and if, only if kindred restoration hits well, do I get that heal as well.. so all our wards have basically be nulled out, all because of 100% bleed through and we're left with about 4 heals to keep a group rocking and they are all direct, except for torpor and kindred.. just saying.. not complaining, however their "FIX" was to essentially remove all spells from shaman and say go at it...but it did get the game back to where it was originally aiming for, 2 healer groups lol.. at least until everyone has raid gear and then it will be back to solo healing and people complaining because raid geared toons will be blasting through zones again and those that don't, wont' get into groups and it becomes a viscous cycle again.. and yes I have solo healed T1s just fine, more rough and have to figure out cast orders again.. but again not the point

Completely agree with everyone that the black box is a problem. Kander said he'd post more about what the changes were about and why, etc. but I'm not sure that's going to happen now that we're a couple weeks into the expac.

back in the days .. old early days. wards weren't stacking either. they started stacking with BT

also back in the days we had less wards and wards were less strong so u usually had your ward being totally used before expiration


they changed how wards when bleedthrough was introduced and are changing back now.

To me what I hate the most about those BT changes is the unwardable damage. Not the non stacking because in the end it was how wards worked and in other mmos, wards don't stack either. But if u cast a ward, it's to prevent damage. so ward should be used up before HP start droping.



but I also could say now warders start to feel how we, pure healers, feel since KA. As warden I got plenty of heals. plenty of hots

I only need 4. my 2 group heals, my group ward and a ST hot with damage shield. everything else is useless. So your state, we've been and are still there ... got lots of useless heal/ward spells.
hierophantic (your oberon counterpar) is supposed to be this big HoT that last a long time, has even a recurent cost since it's so strong ... well I only use it for the mana part ... I remove my big ST heal and maybe soon my ST small heal coz no reasons to cast them.
the the non stacking of wards is like the non stacking of heals, and now warders are more "in line" with mechanics than non warders.

but they gave wards to classes (templars and wardens) and that's the big problem with the non stacking of wards. it means that now a warder cannot do its job if a warden or templar already casted its group ward.
I was happy I got a group ward in PoP ... but it felt logical with how BT worked. they honestly should have removed both templar and warden group wards (and change them for something else) if they want to change the healing mechanic to be back to basics and make our signature heals more relevant again (aka hots and reactives and wards)

I've played a warden since Shadow Oddessy and there have been tough expacs, but I find that.. sentiment... extremely distasteful. Why should any healer class express.. satisfaction.. that another healer class is struggling?
Also, what is a 'pure healer'? Certainly not a warden. Wardens aren't reaching their full healing potential if ALL they're doing is casting heals.