please please please please do NOT put an aggrometer into eq2!!!!!!! thatd make the game prolly almost as easy and mindless as WoW is. how's that sound: put the aggro-log-lines to the test and testcopy servers, let people test out the aggro stuff for a month or two and then remove the aggro-logs again and not push them to live servers at all
Nathdorl wrote: Easy? The real difficulty is in keeping up with all those numbers they're tossing around. By exposing the numbers, the devs encourage min-maxing and increase the demand from the player base for explanations of exactly what every dang number means. They want to know exactly how much benefit they get from +10 to heals so they can min-max down to the sixth decimal position. Exposing these numbers may make the game easier for people who already have a deep understanding of how the aggro system works, but it will make the game a lot harder for Joe Average Tank, because now he has another numerical stat he has to min-max to be considered a "good tank". And don't we have enough such stats already? Powers &8^]
Aeralik wrote: I really hope you are joking? I don't want a new system I like the game I'm already playing. Why does every fix have to be a totally new things? Why is there never a small fix that actually fixes something? Things go from totally overpowered to totally useless; I don't remember ever seeing anything go from overpowered to just good. What's wrong with just making small changes to FIX what is broken?
Aeralik wrote: lastly I'd just like to say that I dislike the idea of being able to "parse aggro"; unless you completely remove all DPS from tanks and turn all their abilities into taunt-like abilities that isnt damaging the mob, but just providing threat.
Aeralik wrote: Hmm, good to know. At least it looks like they won't be merely going through the amends line with a wrecking crew and leaving us to pick up the pieces. Only time will tell from here.
SOE, please think this through. Read this thread, ask some more questions, and look at some more numbers. I love my Paladin and he is the only class I really play in EQ2. As a matter of fact the paladin is the very reason I am even playing EQ2. I hated what blizzard did to the paladin and loved the EQ2 paladin and consequently EQ2 became my main game. As much as I like the idea of being able to control my own agro I think you would be ruining a defining "flavor" of the EQ2 paladin. It really stinks when you don't have a good amends target and is really great when you do. Half of learning to play a pally is learning who to amends and when. I know that even with the new TSO taunts, the fast casting spells (thank you), and all my taunts and AA's; I still have to work to keep agro. Right now I am missing shoulders for the first tier of shard armor and have the fabled epic. I enjoy my pally because even with amends I really have to stay on top of things to keep agro. Isn't that how it should be? What exactly is broken or overpowered about pallies because I just don't see it. Pallies are happy and I don't hear anyone (players) screaming nerf. Leave them alone. If SKs and zerkers need some love then do it. Think about what makes those classes cool and unique and build off of those concepts to help them where needed. I do note that the Aeralik makes it very clear that it is just not amends getting nerfed but all hate transfer and siphons. Has anyone heard any players complaining about this? Why the big change? This seems pretty huge to me and if you have a good reason for it you really need to sell it to your player base first SOE. There is much love out there for EQ2 right now (IMO), a bad move now would be even bigger than the NGE fiasco everyone has been quoting. Please think this through and if you have already - give us more information and get some feedback before you jump!
I don't think you hear many other people screaming about the hate transfer is because none of them are as big as ours or as important to the class. No one elses hate transfer is their class defining skill or what keeps them and thier group alive. I'm not fabled out, I don't have a mythical and I work for my aggro. I hit the new rescues and taunts when I need them and I do to keep them off of these huge dps classes even with amends. I don't want to be watered down guardian, tried the class and hated it. I don't raid and it was BORING as heck. If we're going to be the single target tank with guardians and not be the red headed step child we need something to set us apart. Are we going to have raid and heroic tanks too now?
paladin definitely should not become a weaker guardian version, and if you cut down amends and take away aoe aggro and make single target tanks out of us then we most likely will be the 2nd single target tank that noone uses since guardian can do taht too and better. also i really hate the idea of seeing a aggrometer in eq2, there should not be a way of directly knowing when you have to cut back as a dps or use a big taunt as a tank. the tools in game are allready good enough, and if a player keeps a watch on a dps parse on another screen then he allready gets nearly too much information.
Please just increase the threat levels of our current taunts. Don't give us more buttons! I'm running with 5 hotbars the way it is, we don't need anymore. Game graphics are alot more fun to watch than a wall of hotbars. Oh, and more surviveability, and DPS Please (Hey, it can't hurt to ask).
I think an aggro meter is a great idea. When tanking, I'll have a much better idea on wether I've *only just* lost agrro, which I'll recover with my next taunt, or if some Wiz has Fission'd his way to so much aggro that I'll need to Peel/Taunt instead to recapture aggro. I'm curious as to how it will display each group member's current aggro vs multiple mobs in an AoE encounter - will be a great tool to know if I've lost aggro to an AOE DPS class an add without having to cycle through targets. When DPSing, it will make it so much easier to do the max possible DPS output without taking aggro. Huzzah!
Not sure how many of these ppl knows about "Holy Ground", 45sec recastablable 24postion hate up for about 10sec which is more like cheat hate spell, along with Amend, which might get changed. Some paladin complains about Zerker/SK to have better dps but truth is that PAL can do dmg as much as them. Skilled SK and Paladin sure can do about same dmg atm (which is not fair for SK, for less hate utility) depends on grp and raid setup. Hate wise? No tank can beat Holy Ground (45sec recast) + Amend for single or AoE hate.
Plus the 5% transfer coming from your friendly monk in raid....should always be on MT in raid situations as hate transfer and uber avoidance check.
MirageKnight wrote: I'm sorry, but Holy Ground's recast is 1min 30s. Still a great tool mindyou. But has everyone forgotten the earlier hate transfer nerfs? I remember my swash's transfer almost halved. So I don't like our chances of amends staying "Powerful".
And yet if Amends was halved it would still be the single greatest hate transfer out there. A testament of how powerful it is.
What blows me away is why are they trying to make us single target tanks? Depending on AA build we have 7 or so AOE’s We have 2 Agro siphons (one single target, one short term group) We have 2 direct taunts (one single target, one group) + rescue which all tanks have and the choice of one new taunt just like it that all tanks can take from the fighter shadow line. We have 1 direct attack that also generates hate We have 1 take us to the top of the agro list for a short time ability that works well with our AOE’s. It’s painfully obvious to anyone who looks at our abilities that given our large number of AOE’s and few number of direct attacks with a agro component that we are geared to be AOE tanks more then anything. I look at that list and see all the things SOE is going to have to change to make us single target tanks and it really scares me. What are they going to turn Sigil and Amends into? How many of our AOE’s are they going to take away? Which single target abilities will get hate added to them and which will not? How will they change Holy Ground if they leave us with AOE’s? Are they going to change the 6 piece bonus on our level 77 fabled set gear? What is being talked about is a huge change to the very core of our class and if SOE isn’t extremely careful they could very easily make the entire game unplayable for any but the most perfectly constructed groups. Holy Ground is a nice ability but it’s not the end all hate tool that a lot of non pally’s think it is. It puts us 1 hate point above the next highest person on the agro list whenever we hit something for a very short time. That means I can get agro but I can’t hold it unless I’m out generating everyone else. You can get the recast down to 45 seconds if your wearing a full set of VP set gear and dump some points in AAâ€s but it takes a lot of work to get the recast down that low. As for Amends, we have one direct attack that has hate on it and two taunts on short timers. Compare that to how many on Guards? As a raiding Pally OT I can say that agro is pretty well balanced between Guards and Pally’s right now. We each have our strengths and weaknesses but on the whole I don’t see either one having an advantage over the other hate wise. Now if SOE wanted to do something about the avoidance gap between our two classes go ahead.
I think Aerlik is looking at the fighter archetype problem from the wrong angle. He should look at the balance question in terms of Main Tanking and Off Tanking, rather than single target tanking and AoE tanking. The Brawler classes have never seemed really tanky to me, but more scouty than anything. If the devs could think in those terms, I think they could find a solution to balancing. As it is, I think they're about to 'fix' a class which is not broken. I have to wonder just what percentage of Paladins will betray to Shadow Knight after LU51.
Bruener wrote: If they halved it, it really wouldn't be much of an issue because threat transfer is capped at 50%. Given a typical, reasonable group build, you're already over cap and the effectiveness of Amends has already been reduced. The problem isn't just Amends, it's that they're apparently looking to nerf all forms of threat transfer. They could do that several ways. Reduce the percentages outright, reduce the cap, or some combination. For example, they could make the M1 version of Amends transfer 20%, but they could also set the transfer cap at 25%. I have no problem with them reducing the effectiveness of Amends if, and only if, they give Paladins the tools to effectively maintain the same amount of control over encounters. In fact, allowing us to be "more responsible for our own threat generation" could be a positive thing overall, but it does remove some of the uniqueness of the class. It's also a problem if this is balanced by only providing additional threat tools as high-end achievement abilities; it would disproportionately hurt lower level Paladins, as well as those who (for whatever reason) don't have as many APs.
Aeralik wrote: Well thank you for at least responding Aeralik and clarifying. BUT, if you truly want to see players control their own aggro, including the tanks, and especially Paladins, then you need to leave Amends and other passive hate transfer spells alone. Many times they are the sole reason hate remains on the tank in certain circumstances like when the tank is hindered in some way, such as by fear, stifle or stun to name a few. Amends working passively, along with other hate transfer abilities make competing with these overpowered affects mobs and environments place upon us, while half of our abilities are completely resisted by the mobs themselves at endgame. Removing such passive hate transfers and relying solely upon one character's ability to actively manage hate all the time is going to make this a game of tank taunting and all the others detaunting instead of doing fun things like feeling like you are actually fighting a foe. DPS parses will decrease and fights will last longer causing power issues, which appear to already be the case here lately for some reason. So, what is the true intent here anyway to go through all of this? Job security, lime light? You could actually work yourself out of those favorable circumstances if you go and seriously mess up this MAJOR mechanic royally in the end. Taking away passive aggro management tools is a huge mistake if that is what you are planning to do. EQ2 will become a taunt / detaunt fest and that is not fun. We like to swing our swords and cast our spells, some active aggro management like what is in place now is acceptable, making it a full time job to watch an Aggro Meter is not. Be careful. EDIT: I love my Paladin's AoEs! Don't muck that up as well please.
What I 'm figuring is we'll get to keep Amends/Sigil/Holy Ground/etc.... but all of the hate/threat transfer numbers will be re-set to 0 and then we can use Station Cash to purchase threat transfers in increments of 1%, 5% or 10%!
