Where do we draw the line on a Truebox bypass?

I will start this off by saying my primary intent was always to hopefully enact change to the current TLP rulesets because it seems that the majority of players are unhappy with how Tormax ended up. My hope would be to see Tormax as a Teek clone with boxing allowed.

However, given that I may have to prepare for the unfortunate conclusion that nothing will change, I'm bringing up this discussion because I'm truly curious how people think about this because as long as I've played the game it just hasn't made sense to me.

I realize there's reasons behind Truebox. I understand that there is an intended purpose to motivate people to play with people. What I don't understand is why multiboxing with multiple PCs is okay in DBG's eyes where multiboxing with multiple VMs is not. If the point is simply to add an additional layer of difficulty (buying multiple PCs) to deter your Average Joe to multibox, then how does that differ from the layer of difficulty to setting up VMs? As someone who is not very tech savvy, I'm much more likely to go buy some PCs and run EQ. The only difference is you're just being forced to spend your own money (none of which Daybreak actually sees). So I guess I just don't really see a difference. Could anyone help me understand?

VMs are bannable, multiplee computers are not. To answer your question in more depth, I doubt that DBG cares and just wants to put on a facade. Truebox puts enough of a barrier to entry so that only tech savvy, dedicated boxers can get around it and people are only willing to have so many PCs, which both limit the amount of people boxing. When too many people are bypassing, they can ban a small percentage of users to show that they do care. The facade is just enough that the forums stay mostly quiet as long as truebox is the standard TLP rule.

It's a compromise in that people that hate truebox have to consider heavily if being banned matters to them and the rerollers that only make it until POP quit and reroll on the next TLP before they remove that ruleset feel like they've won.

With all of the conversations around truebox this TLP launch, it's truly depressing that they didn't just remove truebox on one of the servers and give people that want to box a bone and remove some of the boxers from their premier server, which would both have been big, easy wins.

Having multiple PCs doesn’t bypass the true box rules. Using VMs will get you banned on any server not just TLPs.

But this is my whole point. If the rule is "one char per PC" then what's the difference of if it's a virtual PC vs a real PC? The barrier of entry is still there regardless. Daybreak makes a rule and says one type of PC is better than the other "just cause". Again, whether I'm going through the trouble of buying another PC vs going through the trouble of setting up a virtual PC, there really isn't much of a difference. I've seen some even say using multiple real PCs is the preferable way to box vs the alt-tab way. Which is obviously going to be personal preference, but still. In my head both options are still a "bypass" to the idea of a single person playing a single character, which is what I'm understanding to be the intention of the ruleset. It seems like pointless semantics at the end of the day.

There is. It's an issue of scalability.

A lot of us old nerds have a couple extra computers laying around we can bring in, so dusting them off and installing EQ on them isn't that hard for most compared to learning what a virtual machine is and following a guide on configuring one for EQ.

But if you're looking to scale up to six boxing or higher, VMs are much more scalable.

Beyond the setup difficulty, operation of VMs at scale is much easier because they are consolidated to one PC. Tech that accomplishes this consolidation by remotely controlling other PCs to play EQ is also frowned on, but not as common or acted against.

That being said, huge VM armies exist and aren't acted upon on all TLPs with customers using their services.

The difference is that you can easily fit 12 VMs in a single powerful PC. 12 Physical PCs no matter how small gets difficult to manage hence harder for people to run entire raids without VMs.

I think that's the key point the OP may have missed. Multiple PCs or one toon per hard PC is the point of Truebox. No matter how much you may want to to be, a VM is not a real PC, hence the use of the term "virtual".

The idea I suspect to reduce the boxing as an illusion of doing so. But it only hurts the average EQ player does little to hinder those that have the means to go beyond. I box on Truebox, I have 3 Ryzen 5600G systems and a solid gamer lappie I use along with my desktop. Cost a me a few bucks, but watched the sales and put two extras beyond my media system together to use on Truebox servers over the years.

I have 20 computers to run my TLP bot army and 25 accounts. I just added 3 more computers from goodwill for $29 each. I had extra SSD drives, and video cards laying around for these due to a failed ETHER mining venture. Then you just download the insider edition of windows and you're good to go. I easily fit all my computers under my desk and and an 8ft table. Then you buy a lot of KVM 4k switches and you're good to go.

After hardware is setup then all you need is your macros, and you're ready to take on some epic raid targets as a boxer on truebox server! The amount of work you have to due to take down one raid target is CRAZY, but totally WORTH IT!

HAHAHA sounds cheaper then VMs in the end. Ever tried a large IP based single KVM?

I guess that's a fair point; I tend to look at this issue through the eyes of a casual gamer. I enjoy playing 6 chars, but I'd like to do it on one PC so I can hang out on the couch with my wife after we put the kid to bed. Retiring to a dungeon of PCs every night just to play EQ the way I want to play it doesn't sound as enticing at this stage in my life.

Since this is the internet, I will attempt to stay hip and put my argument in the form of a meme:


I also have no idea how these guys set up raid-size VMs. Just out of curiosity I decided to learn to set up a VM and ran two instances of a game and my fans were going wild. And I have a pretty powerful PC with lots of RAM. I probably couldn't run 5 even if I tried.

DPG is probably sponsored by manufacturers of mini PC boxes at this point. They probably hate the environment too. Darkpaw wants to destroy earth faster, obviously.

That being said almost any online game bans VMs, not just EQ so there isn't much ground to stand on when complaining about that. Now why relaxed truebox or no box restrictions isn't how things start out for more servers - well that's just anti-earth agenda.

And that is the point... the one that has been expressed to you a number of times already but you still keep being daft to.

The ENTIRE point is to make the threshold PHYSICALLY more trouble - that said the "it needs a whole dungeon" is simply a hyperbolic myth. My wife and I set up enough for a 6 box setup between us, and with room for seating two and big monitors (3x 55", 3x 26") and real KBM (although minikeyboards for the boxes) setups because I don't care to use extra software or specialized hardware - we use barely more space in our office than our entertainment center takes in our living room.

[Really, with the nature of our shared office setup - the only "additions" are the 3 machines on the 26" monitors when we are away from EQ - the middle 55" is our HTPC that we have for YT/Streaming/etc during non-EQ times - entire difference to us is pulling out an extra cube organizer that fills in the ~6 ft space between our desks and mounts the monitors]

And mind you, we don't tend to use laptops, which are an easy cost (and space!) reduction. If we cared to make this small, with only one us us playing, we could probably swing 6 ft x 4 ft or so.

Also, if this is a concern of yours, but you intend to play longterm - remember, starting in OoW or so they relax Truebox these days, at that point you can box three on a single PC w/o any tricks. (With a full group a year or so later I think?) [I may have those timeframes a bit off, I find I prefer real boxing even once it's available, so I only do it rarely to drag a friend for a flag or similar]

You will get no arguments from me. Having a non-truebox option server on big launches like this just makes sense to me. When everyone is going to play Teek, it'd be an easy way to send a few people to the alternate server. It'd be an easy win for everyone, too. Less people boxing on the premier server, less complaints about boxers, people playing with others with more similar playstyles. It's definitely an intentional choice even if it's a poor decision in my opinion.

This would be an interesting take - making an overflow server w/o boxing limitations and a primary with during the initial time of server stress w/ player volume.

The "average" player does not 6 box (or more). This doesn't hurt most players. Nitpicking over VMs missing the forest for the trees. The basic idea is to limit and decrease the number of massive box groups out there. There will not be a perfect rule that stops all box armies, but rules like this do limit them.
Don't let good be the enemy of perfect. This rule helps limit box armies, which is a good thing. If you're upset at being limited by these rules, then it turns out they are specifically targeted at you - hence they are doing their job.

Not all of us want or need box armies. Some of us just don’t want to have to have a desk full of computers to play a couple of characters. It is silly to think that to box an additional character in 2024 you should have to have a totally different computer. But I also agree that truebox has its place for new TLPs. Should just make a server with no true box since the perfect fix isn't here.

Again, hyperbolic nonsense - laptops can easily make it a temporary thing - I don't have a "desk full of computers" at my work office, but yet, sometimes I need to use secondary laptops due to how our medication administration software works - rarely two in addition to my desktop. But then I close them all up and send them back to their homes and life goes back to my normal uncluttered desk I prefer.

That isn't how you use hyperbolic. Just an FYI.

I have 3 work computers on my desktop. I am in consulting. It is hardly hyperbole to suggest it's crazy I need 5 or 6 computers cluttering my area to run 2 or Everquest accounts.

The system has served it's purpose in years past but no longer is relevant. Relaxed truebox accomplishes the same thing as truebox without destruction to the environment and unnecessary cluttering of space.

Since they allow blatant cheating they might as well just allow VMs at this point.

It was hyperbole because they were suggesting permanency with "Some of us just don’t want to have to have a desk full of computers to play a couple of characters." (Even with 6 total boxes, we could breakdown our entire more elaborate (since we're non-laptop) than most setup in probably 15 min? Setup was around 30 when I set it back up but taking down is easier - laptop version could probably be under 5 both ways)

There's an easy mitigation that is available to deal with the issue and not make it something that affects someone outside of when they want the benefits from it.

Heck, you can even run boxes blind and run a tiny keypad from it to pilot it if you're OK with playing them blind - with the "boxes" themselves set a ways out where the only real estate spent is slightly bigger than a drink on the desk per machine. And if you don't want to be blind? Monitor/laptop mounts are pretty inexpensive which makes a machine take up nothing but the tiny keyboard space allocated. (And before you comment about mice - mice are optional if you're smart about your keybinds you write)

To go more in depth for the setup the wife and I have - our main desks are almost completely empty because of wise use of space - keyboard, phone charger, mouse - and some non computer related nonsense on the rest - about 4'x2' of completely empty desk for both of us. And that's with 2 mains + 4 boxes set up in here, just thanks to actually planning out the setup.

Yes agreed average gamer does not 6 box, but most of my friends want to 2 or 3 box, but with the exception of one (thought he will not bother), none have the means to setup extra computers as I have. In fact due to truebox I am playing in the new TLP with out my usual gang, none are willing to play just one toon.

We are very casual and when you play only a few nights every 2nd week, any in game connections made out level me beyond time for 1 or possibly 2 groups. So before too long with out exception finding a solid group is extremely hard. Guilds no matter what is said almost all treat non raiders as outsiders, thus that has proved to not be much of a solution either.

Truebox hurts the casual boxer, not the core box armies or those with the means/knowledge to leap beyond it. Also there are only about 5 zones people seem to group in on the road to 50 (not many more beyond), so if I am alone I box to open up any zone I wish to play in. I also mix it up each TLP, and choose different zones I have not played in some time. My past experiences, I have had issues filling even 1 spot let alone 3 (I formerly boxed 3 toons) playing in the other 100ish of zones, which is why I now box 5. Room for a merc in the future!

So I will 5 box a team on one of the new TLP servers, and just casually enjoy the content I want to play at the pace I want. One thing is for sure I have gotten efficient at writing in game macros!

Truebox in my opinion, for what it is worth, is a failure. It does remove some boxes, but most are like my friends just casual players, and does little to curtail the armies. I have said a million times, boxing isn't the issue, the players are. I have met some really awful "griefing" people in EQ, both boxers and single toon players alike. I have had boxers run ramshackle over me wiping my team, and others help me by breaking a spawn I am struggling with, buffing or a rez when they came across my grave from failure. Boxing does not change the real issue, nice players are nice players, and jacka**** are jacka**** regardless of how many toons they play or do not play.

RMT crowd isn't even phased by truebox. Not to mention the AoE PLrs who do nothing but test the limits of my ignore lists. So where has truebox succeeded? Well power perceived is power achieved, so if an illusion is believed, then the illusion succeeds.