Nice post Kamea. A paladin complaining about DPS is pretty hilarious as a healer hybrid they should be at or near the bottom. A Warrior should be exactly in the middle as far as Dps go's.
I can't open that link. But any numbers I quoted at any point in time were what was happening at the top end of raiding. The paladin numbers were low because I excluded 7th which is a major contributing factor as it doubles paladin dps but when we got an upgrade to holy forge without it after the valorous rage nerf those were the numbers on a non undead fight. Kilrek the cleaner was the mob we used with 7th before the nerf pals were doing close to 60 k iirc. I'd honestly have to read that thread which won't open on my phone to even discuss numbers. I'm not misinformed. Paladin and sk dps have spells as a major contributin factor casting every global refresh. War burns do not. I beta buffed a warrior during hot and was able to use adps plus those discs to get those results with auto attack. My tune hasn't changed I don't raid anymore so I have no current numbers to speak of. So I'm only speaking of practicality and the theory of getting warranted boosts. I had no part In any nerfs, not a single pm sent about it to a dev. Everything I said was on the boards and the devs dont listen to me any more than anyone else. I didn't say wars don't need dps boosts if they do then good luck. I said that gaining moar dps isn't going to revive the class because it isn't ever going to be enough because I the ceiling the dps classes place on you. You are at this point arguing outdated information in an attempt to prove that I talked about dps a lot congrats I already admitted that I did. I also never said don't boost wars I said boosting their base melee is a terrible idea.
You chose that class to push more buttons to do better things. We chose a warrior to not have to cast spells and accepted the lack of soloing that still remains today and the huge dependence on other people in the community . Actually as a class in total power we have dipped down to the very bottom of our power curve since disciplines were first introduced . We now have the need to have more combat abilities tied to hotkeys because there is not enough room on our ui piece. The combat ability window. We don't need more buttons to activate we need old buttons revamped into something new and powerful enough while also keeping our class distinction. And you are completely uninformed on how our class works now and how our class should be working now. I remember all the arguments from you shiftie throwing my parses under the bus when the iss nerf happened but funny I was burning with burst dps higher then the ones you used as proof to get us nerfed but that was only on a 60 sec or less fight. But at the same time paladins were burning for 10 k more dps on al kabor. Which was a longer fight .
Warriors in my guild had the same access to weapons/gear as warriors in your guild at the time. Warriors in my guild never get DPS, and not a single warrior (including ones that went to ROI) ever parsed over 30k on an actual event during HOT, much as less 55k..... save for the last 20% of Lilth, but even on Lilth it was only in the 30ks a handful of times w/o aDPS. ---- Here's why I get pissed off at your DPS discussions: aDPS. aDPS should be irrelevant in tank DPS discussions, but since forum DPS posting is about measuring > realistic scenarios, it isn't. The reason why it should be irrelevant is because tanks are (usually) in tank groups, not DPS groups. I've been in CT for 5 years, I've been in a DPS group for a total of 2 events... one during SOD, one during ROF, neither were burn events. Yet the DPS discussions about my class are highlighted by outlier parses like Boogs', not what warriors are doing under the circumstances the majority of raiding warriors are. Warrior DPS -w/o aDPS- simply wasn't that great during HOT. I know that may sound shocking. Even pre-ISS nerf, it only brought our relative DPS back to where it was a few years before. Warrior relative DPS was higher during the L70 expansions (when we got Brutal Onslaught line) than it was during HOT post-ISS nerf. Since then, our relative DPS has fallen off a cliff. Right. Warrior auto attack DPS in 2014 is a joke. Short of the devs accepting your philosophical belief that warriors should be more reliant on activated DPS, as things are right now, 'base melee' is pretty freakin' important for a 'pure melee' class. Look, I don't necessarily disagree with your views on aDPS. But you fail to realize that your view of warrior DPS is highly skewed by our stupidly volatile aDPS. Our activated DPS is either < 1k or > 15k. We can easily pump out 15k activated DPS for 35 seconds on the last 20% of a mob, and even a lot more with some luck. At the same time, if the mob is over 20% HP and heroic blade is down (it has quite a long reuse time, btw), our activated DPS is largely inconsequential. So yeah, it'd be nice if we could do 5-10k activated DPS (while discing) pretty much any time we wanted. At the end of the day, here's all I want. I want to do 30-40% the DPS of a real DPS class on 60s burns.
And was also undead. Glad you spent the majority of that discussion lying that speaks volumes to your credibility in a discussion. The game is no longer vanilla it changed and if you refuse to adapt the same things I said before hold true now. Passive dps is going to put a ceiling on your dps because of the function of adps. But keep on keeping on it seems to be going well for you.
Is that the dps of a real DPS class with or without aDPS? aDPS is where the game is right now for all DPS.
The problem with Warrior DPS clicks is most of them are Discs. This means that lock out our disc window, there are timer constraints (Both refresh and what timers they are on), and most of them haven't been upgraded/revamped in years. Our NEWEST one locks out our defensive to the point unless I KNOW I'm not gonna be tanking in the next 10 min it's not an option, and realisticly I never know that because either I'm tanking in groups or the situation can go sideways and I have to be ready to tank at a moment's notice. Prior discs typically had a 20-30 minute refresh and a duration of 1 minute or less. Several of the ones that DIDN'T have the massive refresh shared timers with our agro abilities forcing the choice do you want to use the agro abilities with all the hastened AAs or use the 1 DPS click that isn't hasted so it locks them out for the full 30 seconds. New activatable AA/Disc DPS boosts could be good IMO but they would need more realistic timers and refreshes. IE NOT on DEFENSIVE or our AGRO timers, and 1-10 minute refreshes giving buffs not locking out our disc window timer.
No wonder the community is complaining when: S&B DPS adjustments clearly state DPS will be nerfed (heavy collateral damage here) DW is lowest DPS stance but not getting more DPS (really, more DPS is all it needs) 2H which already has certain situational applications may be nerfed (incoming damage mod) I definitely agree that some infighting is not helping the class, but the proposal does not look like a fix - Two nerfs in exchange for a sidegrade is not a good deal.
Aa short refreshes are what I had in mind. If you look at paladin disruptive persecution, inquisitors judgement etc as an example or beast lord aa lines you could open up new branches of dps abilities. These abilities are inherent to the class and are tuned for them without having to figure adps because it does not mod them or not much at all by design. That is dps wars can take with then into all facets of the game and goes away from skill attacks that are modded disproportionately by iss. It also alleviates the disc timer problem.
I could probably spend the whole day discussing this with you but it's a bit off topic for the thread tl;dr - We have a couple of these, but "fast refresh" abilities for pure melee should typically be Ranked Tomes. See: Monk/Rogue/Berserker
I'm talking realistic raiding situations. The DPS would be, well, in a DPS group, the tank would be in a tank group but have AE war cry/auspice, fero, etc. Paladins are the only tank class that are in the 30-40% range atm w/o aDPS. From my experience, the following is true (atm.) Pal > SK, but SK+aDPS is > Pal+aDPS. I think SK has the top 60s potential atm for any tank class, but I think the paladin DPS setup is much more appealing since their DPS superior under realistic raiding scenarios. Look, if I were to make a long post about activated DPS and warriors, I think we'd find a lot to agree on. I also agree strongly about becoming less aDPS dependent, and see pallies as the only tank class that have anything significant in that regard (SKs are just as aDPS as warriors.) But in the short term, what's important is to keep us from getting nerfed. I think your view of ISS is out of step with the times. The only reason why ISS looks strong is because warrior DW and 2H is a joke, but ISS after all of the nerfs (FYI, they didn't stop nerfing it after first one in HOT) isn't all that.
This thread was started in the hopes for actual discussion about returning, under-leveled, under-geared players trying to catch up. AA auto-grant was a good start (though I think they should have just increased the XP gains further for AAs), but there needs to be a smoothing of the curve between ROF and COTF, or at least give reason for players to even consider leveling up in ROF by increasing XP gains or ---SOMETHING---. Run through those zones and they are empty. Not a good thing considering COTF is only at T1 and still being piecemeal released... it's a major indicator of the health of the game. As my first post stated. Gear goes from Reis/Rustic to T1 ROF and then the dead zone from 92 to 100. ROF is a dead zone.
S&B does not need nerfed. If anything S&B, DW, & 2H all need a boost. Code: Braveheart -vs- 1 Week Parse:(Random Play Style w/3 Raids) -- DMG: 86497992 -- DPS: 5956 -- Scaled: 5915 -- Crush: 70728191 -- Slash: 7701872 -- DirDmg: 4601028 -- Bash: 1601348 -- DoT: 1409950 -- Kick: 452798 -- Hit: 2805 -- Non-crit rate: 59.6% -- crit rate: 39.8% -- crippling rate: 0.6% -- Attempts: 25305 -- Hits: 21442 -- Missed: 3863 -- Accuracy: 84.7% -- Avg Hit: 4044 -- Max hit: 233764 -- DMG to PC: 21896135
What Shiftie needs to realize is that S&B DPS increase HOT > VOA, VOA > ROF, ROF > COTF was dramatically smaller than the DPS gains in any other class, including clerics. When ISS got a revamp/aggro overhaul (think VOA) DPS actually went down expansion to expansion. During this whole time S&B was the only viable weapon type, so it really effected the entire class. The increases in DW and 2H were probably higher, but that was off of a far lower base. I parsed out the difference between weapon types in VOA, I'd predict the difference wouldn't be as big today; but increases from crap to crap are meaningless. Some warriors don't care about S&B stagnating because it will help them make forum posts calling for DW/2H buffs. And Shiftie doesn't care about it (heck, he's still calling for nerfs) because he thinks warrior 'base melee' should suffer because the warrior community sucks and doesn't ask for paladin DPS AA's. However, we've paid $100s in sub fees+expansions and played for 3 years under blatantly lazy and improper DPS/weapon balance. I find it funny in EQ that's acceptable in a bid to (supposedly) help forum posts, while many MMO's don't even last 3 years. =========== They added Merciless Blade in VOA with the stated purpose of rebalancing 2H DPS; that's what a dev (forget who) posted on beta forums. Even after Merciless Blade, 2H only did 90% the DPS of DW and 60% the DPS of nerfed S&B -- this was pointed out on beta forums and merc blade was barely tuned. So, 'in theory' we shouldn't even be having these discussions about 2H rebalancing, it was supposed to be done 2.5 years ago. But the fact the VOA 2H 'buff' was such a joke is why I'm so skeptical about the supposed CotF 2H buff, I have no doubt that if these changes happen as proposed, S&B will be nerfed, 2H will have the penalty, we'll have to click buffs to swing freakin' weapons correctly, but whether or not the 2H buff will actually be strong enough to increase our DPS potential, who knows. Devs are scared of big numbers. That's how you get abilities that increase dodge rate by 20% or something crazy like that. But it's 20% of a single digit number, and 1/2 of those would have been misses anyways, so 20% ends up being minimal. It's clear they don't always parse out the abilities they add to the game, they only enter the number that sounds appropriate. With warrior DPS, 2H would need something on the order of a 80-100% increase to get the levels promised, I simply don't see a dev thinking that's the right number to enter into the program. He'll probably tune -15% for S&B, +25% for 2H, and S&B will still be superior and our overall DPS will be lower. Elidroth implied DW, even after the buff, will be lower than S&B currently is, so I don't see why any DW lover would be optimistic about these changes, and the aggro.
It was last year in RoF that I did the baseline parses that showed DPS had stagnated to the point S&B was then even with DW and 2Hander. However those were parses without ADPS, buffs or Discs boosting DPS.
You also have to consider we lose our main special attack when we use anything other then sword and board. DW will be above sword and board dps wise but slightly lower hate wise(we lose iss) I do care about the nerfing of the damage from sword and board and the negative impact on 2 handers. But I do not care at all about the buffs you pretty much should consider them stances. We have no other place to put stances unless they make a 3 slot buff window just for us. We need special attacks (or activated aa) which many of us have asked for in a multitude of variants. We need more synergy combo moves things happening from us doing what we already do. Just like I said shiftie is completely uninformed about our class we have asked for the very things he says we need. They are right over in the thread I started. They were also pasted into a conversation with the developers between me and another warrior pwning didn't reply for some reason wish I could of invited more people into it tbh. And lastly I like dual wield yes but I can't help it that is how we were designed up till what sod ? It is more then obvious that is how we were supposed to deal our massive amounts of damage while also tanking in group content and the only real utility we had was doing more dps then any other tank . Lets see how many warriors here would not be opposed to never using a shield but having the same defensive buffs that we gain from it ? #1 Or how many warriors would be ok using dw most of the time and having to look like a knight while tanking only the hardest hitters ? ie commander galenth? #2
I would say #2 Being the "master of armor and tactics' and having trained solely in martial arts should allow me this ability.....
To me it's obvious #2 is how it should be, prior to Shield Specialist I would routinely shield up when I felt I had enough of an agro lead over the rest of the players.
