I love the "force of x" aa nukes. Cast between real nukes, fast cast time, free, they don't eat prolonged destruction charges but still receive the bonus from PD and during burns they're critting for around 110k if memory serves. That's a nice bit of free damage. My only complaint about wizards remains that GoM is not used while PD/AD are up save for one spell that does work properly.
I agree they should fix that, on the other hand with the current balancing that would put you over the moon for longer event DPS. because you can chaincast longer without having to harvest on a burn.
I don't find our sustained to be overly spectacular still, which is fine. It's definitely better than it was before the update for a number of reasons, but still topped by necros at the very least. Our burn is very sexy now, though.
You name 1 class that is better sustained than you. and they top you very late. in my opinion necros should top sustained at the 5 min mark. up till then id give it to wiz / bers / rog... thats in the ideal world.. You are doing spectacular in sustained and burst. that is the reality atm.
Wizzies are in a pretty good place right now, that can't be contested. Rogues and zerkers were god mode the last 2 xpacs, miles above wizzy in every aspect, but I didn't come to post about it. Everyone deserves their xpac(s) to shine, and wizzy has been garbage for a loooong time. ps. I'm the only wizard in my guild that consistently out parses our necros, mages and beastlords. We're a T1 guild just starting to break into t2 so most of our fights aren't 2-3 minute burns, closer to 4-5.
Why would you list it non critical, when without burning you got 36% chance of critting (if not more with last patch, cant remember). and your crits are modded 450% or something now. so 5K non burn sounds about right....
We did well, and i was in here supporting you to get a bump. We didnt do way too well though. we are melees. we are more support dependent than you guys, that is inherent disadvantages. early last expansion you outdid us because of gear, and thats fine - earlier in expansion you do better because you are less gear dependent. But if we cant get up there later in expansion there is no reason to play either rog or bers. however i am not in this thread to whine. just to correct your understatements... But wizards seem to think melees does well if they cant top every parse. as i said i think you were a bit underpowered last expansion, but not by a wide margin on burst. On sustained i think you needed some work already then. I have never heard a wizard say that they understand their lower support dependency, rune and generally being ranged is worth anything... these are advantages you have over melee DPS...
You said melee quest all the time because of an event where berserkers could hit 140K (VERY VERY rarely and with max support), now we basically hit 160K for the best parse in ROF (except when we were broken on augmented frenzy) on most normal raids we never came close to that, in VOA wizards won some parses, casters won some parses because of the sheer melee mechanics. We gave those up, saying fine you can win those parses because they aren't optimal for melee. I know you couldnt burst as well as us... and so what? is there no price ot be paid for being ranged and having less support depencency?.. again i would have you closer to us last expansion, but i believe ROF is totally wacked, i wouldnt say imbalanced - i would call it not balanced at all..
I didn't know I needed to do a full dps model of them for the conversation? The question was whether they are worth using. I was showing that they are non-trivial (>1k) dps and so are worthwhile to use. If for example, they were 100 dps I would have said don't bother with them.
Voodo i am happy if we arent top every event, but they way they have skill designed us with so much support dependency and chance basedness, we should under the right conditions be able to do by far the best DPS burst. I would prefer though that we were being less chance based and having less problems hitting our max (like wizards), being less support dependent (get HHE 12% like other melees?) if devs dont want to go down that route. but with the way the classes work now i think we should top burst with the right conditions. But as we are build now, if we do not have the chance to blow away when conditions favors this, we will on average be very far behind... I dont think it was melee quest in VOA, it was more like melee + necro quest. HOT berserkers did very very well (overpowered), but rogues weren't too shabby either and i dont think wizard burn was bad at all. their sustained however sucked, so yeah wizards were underpowered there as well... Never been a fan of bad balancing on purpose.. Rog / bers and wiz can all have their spot in the sun at the same time, but on different events, just the way they are made. bers being the extremely high risk / high reward class (reward when it pays off with support, burn not ending prematurely etc.). Wiz being low risk / low reward (wizards are alot more in control of their own DPS, 100% crit rate makes their burn values come out much alike on similiar time frames) rogues being pretty high risk / reward. that was what they had right in VOA. except they put wizards too much to a disadvantage... But i think its possible to balance around that...
There are more than three dps classes. YOU are the only one saying it should be three. Are you saying we are all wrong and you are right?
Yes, there is a price to be paid for range, it's called "defense" of which we are the worst in the game: 1) We have the lowest AC softcap due to cloth armor. I know the whole thing was revamped a couple years ago, but I'm pretty sure cloth is still the lowest. 2) We get (one of) the lowest return on AC over the softcap. Druid was supposed to be the worst, but a lot of this information is dated so I can't speak for exactly how accurate it is today. 3) Of the silk classes, the others get better tools to stay alive. Enchanters get extra mitigation via AAs/Runes and limited healing abilities. Necromancers can flop aggro constantly (they have to because DoT aggro sucks) as well as pets and decent healing abilities. Magicians have their own tank with their pets as well as limited pet heals. Wizards have none of these. (We did get some of our runes improved recently, but they don't come close to Enchanter runes). As for dependency: 1) It doesn't entitle you to anything because of it. If I have a million dollars of my own money to start a business, (aka I'm independent), and you have to take a million dollar loan from the bank to start yours, (aka you're dependent on the bank), is your business entitled to do better than mine? No, it isn't. 2) The game is designed that way, it isn't our fault and we shouldn't be punished for it. Spell mods do not stack like melee mods do. Giving casters ADPS is much more difficult than it is for melee, because we were -designed- to be independent. You weren't. 3) You have mostly yourselves to blame for it. For years we casters, and Wizards specifically, have constantly fought -against- getting ADPS or Utility. We don't -want- it. We -never- wanted it. I don't recall ever seeing melee fight against getting more of either a few years ago at the beginning when this mess started, and now a few years later when it's come to bite you on the you want -us- to pay for it. I don't think so.
There's really no risk vs reward basis for arguing dps anymore. Every AoE that hits you is hitting me too, if you're taking AE ramps well, you're wrong. If we really want to argue RvR for dps then rogues should smoke zerker and wizzy due to having all of the negatives + positional requirement. However, that's not how it works. All DPS classes need to be competitive. Pures should have a slightly higher ceiling but certainly not "be by far the best DPS" as you claimed for zerkers. 5-10% higher ceiling/potential for pures should suffice. Even WoW has a 5% pure bonus. I for one am glad to see casters holding their own in this xpac, I was nauseous from hearing melee gloat for the last 5 years.
Have i talked about AE ramps... even though YES, they should also count. please read what i say, i am saying we are more support dependent, got detrimental discs. have a very high disperity in the numbers we put out even if we do exactly the same thing.. Please atleast try to understand how we are built before answering. look, try read our skills. we got so many things that can and will go wrong in a burn that are out of our control, devs made us this way, so with current skill built, if we cant blow away for the top spot when conditions go our way (without having others whine), we are not competitive at all. As i also said i will be happy to be less chance based and have less support depencency and give potential top burst for this. But i think its a wrong way to go down as dev. because Wiz / bers / rog then will be homogenous and have the same strength and weaknesses...
Can we agree that risk / reward on burn is a factor that should be taken into account? Or do we just want to top burst and laugh at melees that have 3 classes to support a mediocre burn?
Halleluja.. of course we want ADPS, we want someone who rolled a bard to be of use, or someone that rolled enchanter to be of use.. we dont just care about our own dps.. The cloth argumented doesnt hold up at all, you dont take damage. you got a 200K dmg rune, and you tank around as well as berserkers that have to eat rampage - we do have a lil more hp though, but that is neglected by having to tank AE rampage, position ourselves on mobs. etc. etc. etc..
And for you Voodo, no i think its fine that necros top sustained. but i think you should top later than you do currently.
Like I said, if you're taking ae ramp you're wrong. Wizzy 200k rune is a 15 minute cooldown, I'd actually prefer the rune component was a) separate or b) not there are all, so the skill would actually last for 16 casts in a raid. Big whoop. Casters must position as well at max melee range on ae ramp/belly casters. Our burns prevent us from consuming Gift of mana procs or using any other mana reduction means. Wizard brings nothing to a raid other than personal DPS. Zerkers bring bloodlust aura, and their shouts (names escape me). Rogues can feed tanks huge amounts of agro, proc raid poisons that other rogues can proc off of etc. Wizzy MUST be competitive or else it's a complete waste of a raid spot as it has been the last few years.
