Can only DPS at about 40% of normal with new pet aggro changes

Damage shields, lol.

It is a utility .

It's more utility than ports are for this expansion.

#1 While our DS are a little better than DRU or RNG versions, I think, it's not a factor when chosing a group member, especially considering, DS can be buffed from outside the group and holds for 2 hours

#2 There are melee's also. All of them provide a much higher DPS in a group setting than us, which puts us at a solid #6 / #7 of the DPS ranking for groups (depending if the mobs live longer than 30 seconds)

#3 If you refer to CotH - you should probably teach your group to move through zones

#4 Again, if you refer to CotH ...

#5 This used to be a Ranger spell, it was later given to WIZ as an AA, and even later introduced for all INT caster classes

#6 Seriously? Let's turn it around - magicians are most dependant on getting as much aDPS as possible to function properly.

#7 ENC, WIZ, MAG have access to both Invis AA and IVU AA, NEC have access to IVU AA only. A ranger and a cleric in group do the trick also (and some other class combos, including neco

#8 "With a real healer" the following classes are able to tank and kill most group nameds: WAR, SK, PAL, NEC, WIZ, MAG, ENC, RNG, ROG, MNK, BER

#9 As do Enchanters and Necromancers. But I think, I'll call "bard" here ...

#10 I'd put it more like: one mob for the mainpet, one mob for the RS if you want to play it safe. A second mob on RS might work, if the mobs don't kill the RS too fast. Most heals don't apply on RS and thus, they can hardly be healed (Counterbias heal from SHM lands, e.g.).

#11 Bandages anyone?

Oh, so you are discounting every type of utility another class has? Then no one has any utility.

All I did was pointing out, that every single Utility a magician has can easily be done by other classes, in some cases better as well, most of them have even more utility and / or more damage.

Especially as Makavien insinuated that these abilities were somehow unique to MAG.

And the same can be said of Wizards' "utility" which mages seem to love trying to build up as being the end all be all.

WTT my DS for your Manaburn?

I'll trade your awful awful worthless pets for it.

Igniz I will just reply with one thing other than "stuff"

You could not keep up with me for 8 hours straight in this game I would say you would give up after 30 minutes . Considering since I don't think parses mean anything about a player's skill and I'm usually at the next spot with my mage before the other step is even finished.
And you really are discrediting how fast you can move a group around killing 1 - 2 mobs when they are phs and then moving on before most other players even knew you was there ?

And with tactical binding my goodness are you sure you don't want to just reroll a wizard because everything I posted there is what makes a magician a magician ?

So, you literally mean you don't think parsing has anything to do with a players aptitude at their class? If so, what do you use as a barometer for a dps class?

Well I didn't say that it is just not the end all be all to base a player's skill on . I should of phrased that better I guess.
You have burn parses to look at .
Reaction times .
Learning time .
How fast they can traverse.
How likable they are in a social setting.
How dedicated they are.
How much knowledge they have about their own class and mechanics within the game.
How much they help others progress.

I think I should add this too I think servants need the aggro fixed I think the demeanor spells should be turned into on and off aa that autocast on any pet summoned when on. I also believe the recent nerf needs reverted by a % from 10 - 25% to start with.

I think magicians also need another magic bolt that is lower mana cost and a faster recast or something like that , that helps close the gap between you and the other dps maybe the nuke based on # of pets should be made to do more damage per pet up and the fire bolts should be lowered in mana cost .

I could also see earth pets mitigating a little bit better when solo or molo but, in a group with the correct buffs they should be able to tank 2 - 3 npcs if done properly. So, it should be a buff that is like the line Shining defense which would not stack with shining in a group setting with a cleric. With a flat % of absorbed damage and without a low end threshold.

But even without all these fine tunings your class is still wanted in groups .

You literally just did.

Part of that sounds like you're looking for someone to join an enjoyable social group of friends, not a skilled individual at a dps class. At least in the raiding environments I'm part of, where skill is the only thing we really care about (yeah, some people are kept cause we don't have better options at the time), we care about parsing, the most empirical measure of a players "skill" on their dps toon, very much. To think parsing means nothing means your opinion literally caries zero weight when it comes to discussions about dps, since you wouldn't be using 100% relevant information. As a magician if I see someone in a group setting, or raid doing half the dps I am doing, while playing a mage (and I too am on a mage), on a consistent basis, they're just not good, in my opinion, at the class. Same would go for any dps class in group or in raid; if they're doing half what someone else is doing, with equal support and primarily focused on damage, they need to improve drastically.

There have been only a handful of things in the group content area of this game that have required perfect dps in as many years that I can recall back . And none of them required the absolute best burn from everyone in the group . So picking people for a group based solely on dps is overkill . And will literally only help you if you can pull endless npcs for exp . You really should of let me finish my post ) Because as you see I do believe your class needs boosts in areas that you only judge people on .

While Makavien has his opinions (and I'm always interested in reading them), he doesn't speak for everybody (I certainly don't either).

My barometer for a DPS class is:
#1 Can not fill the tanking role in a group (where group is anything greater than a single toon without a merc taking on content).

A DPS classes tanking ability should be no better than my (a Warrior) ability to fill the DPS role. Let me be perfectly clear - a Warrior is only wanted when other classes who can also contribute utuility, greater DPS, and/or greater healing can not do the job. So long as the group's healer isn't run out of mana "better" tanking in group content generally doesn't matter. Which may be why so many Warrior box. Play a Warrrior/want a group/you better be able to make your own since so many can do your job AND contribute other things.

Usually there is one tank spot in a group. If a real tank doesn't get that spot he/she does not get a spot. There are more than one DPS spots. (In fact, all classes should be able to DPS. My (virtual) sword is not made of sponge rubber despite many casters suggesting it should be. Their contention is insulting and wrong.

And I'll have to express a different opinion.

Not tanks (Mage pets, Necro pets, Warders, Monks, Rangers, Enchanters, Clerics) ought to be able to
1. briefly protect their owners vs. even dangerous mobs
2. And even tank trivial experience and older tradeskill dropping yardtrash one mob at a time unless they are seriously trivial (current content ought not be that seriously trivial) - EQ's equivilant to if you can't find a real group at least you can do something ala WoW.

And even with class balance partially adjusted toward what it should be Mages will still be desired in group content (pet tanking adjustments should not affect their raid role. IF it ever would have then Mages were at that time even FURTHER OP than everybody knew they were all along).

Ya see, I don't box a Mage. I play a (single account Warrior) and if every Bomb, Nuke, and Fingerwagler can function in group content without a tank, tanks (who don't box, particularly those who don't raid) take it on the chin - hard.

Close the DPS gap between Warriors and DPSers a lot and then and only then is allowing not tanks or their pets tank justified in any way.

My dirtball is not made of cotton candy, despite many warriors suggesting it should be.

Why do your own rules not apply to your own posts? Unless people (vocal warriors e.g.) suggest nerfing mages, you won't find mages expressing their belief that warriors should be treated equal.

See OP's post where he oh so conveniently levertages a DPSer having a pet that allows hin to solo a little into a one man army...

Yet ignores the Warrior Class Descriptions which note that Warriors should be "dealing heavy DPS". He suggests that in an era of tank parity with Warriors, SKs, and Paladins able to tank all group content, not tanks and pets able to tank group content, Warrior group dependence should persist.

Cornerstone of a good group,(just another tank in group content where even not tanks or their pets tank), heavy damage, doesn't fare well alone. Warriors have all of their class disadvantages and virtually none of their parent class advantage (except in raids). And a class which is both DPS AND Tank, a TankMage, complains? Give me a break.

That kind of group dependence can only exist where there is meaningful parent class superiority on the narrowly focused classes main role. That kind of superiority no longer exists. Warriors are selling coals in Newcastle.

Compare the tank/not tank tanking gap vs. the not DPSer/DPSer DPS gap. You not tanks have got Unbelievably OP great.

SO....why shouldn't the OP and Mages in general apply their own rules (Warriors are a tank class and therefore should have vastly inferior DPS and be group dependent) to Mages (Mages are a DPS class and NOT A TANK CLASS).

Hmmmmmm??

Not being shy, the TankMage with a sword in one hand wearing a landshark helmet with laserbeam eyes which he uses to lay waste the battleground asks for more Tank AND more Mage. Just give back godmode kpksthnks~ Warriors? Tanking OR DPS - can't do both you know/#wouldn'tberight certainly not enough to solo like the favored classes.

Mages have been LONG overdue for a nerf. I play on Live, and I've seen their pets tank raid mobs in COTF that warrior after warrior were just going splat to (DH1 and DH2) among others. I also played on Lockjaw, where mage pets were again tanking nearly all raid mobs in classic, and were so overpowered that it seemed like half of the characters on the server were mages. They have been so overtuned for a long time, I'm surprised anyone is surprised by this nerf. Incoming 10 mages below me crying because they can't solo named and tank raid mobs anymore. whaaaawhaa

You ARE aware of the major nerf since CotF, are you?
Pet tanking Raidbosses on Live has been disabled since two friggin years ...

Battleaxe, what does this ax you're grinding have to do with mages? If you think we need to 'wield a heavier ax', then maybe make a separate post suggesting as much. But I don't think one class's rightful stress about these new aggro issues with their pet should become a, "well if you guys get this, we should get that", -for-tat discussion. And, you don't speak for all warriors, by the way. One, I love where we are right now - we are doing the best dps than I can recall us ever doing, and they didn't nerf us to death for the privilege. Two, are you really having that much trouble finding groups? Really? I have a hard time believing that.