I got a combined 3817 kills on my two cosmoses... All gotten before they buffed the blueshift/gutted the cosmos. I didn't use ZOE to get those kills because it wasn't even revealed at that point. biolab + MAX is powerful, ZOE has little to do with that.
https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2...o-stop-the-whining.128737/page-6#post-1772498 That was one of the last stat posts CupBoy did before he discontinued providing stats (aggregated via the census API). His data will be sorely missed unless someone else takes up the task. Note though, that this only includes people with MAX usage of at least 60+ minutes in the specified intervals, so you could make the argument that VS for some reason have a higher amount of hardcore MAX players that reach the 60+ minute limit more quickly after a patch. But that is extremely unlikely, and most posts in this thread seems to agree with the observations that there are more VS MAXes around after the patch. The before patch data spans half a month and is as such very reliable.
Fair enough. Althogh those numbers really only show usage directly after the patch, when people are tryign the new stuff, and not necessarily the long-term usage. Still, worht noting is also how the score/hour is not a huge difference between TR and VS. I don't really see a problem with a lot of players playing something if it's fun. If the average efficiency is similar, there shouldn't be a huge problem. There is nothing stopping NC or TR from answering with a similar amount of MAXes.
OP is absolutely correct. 95% of the whining about ZOE is knee-jerk rubbish, as are 99.9% of the 'ADAD' posts. Interestingly, those numbers referenced above by Wildclaw show a comparable SPH increase for both ZOE AND Lockdown MAXes. Lockdown is insanely powerful - I've seen entire Amp Station interiors turned into slaughterhouses with coordinated lockdown, let alone how much more powerful it is in a biolab with fewer/more constrained access routes - but because it doesn't come with giant purple warning lights, you don't know if you're facing a Lockdown user until he actually locks down. Ditto the Aegis shield - when used as a team, it can be devastating. It took a while for the NC to work out how to use it, but now they are, it's starting to shine. Almost every NC MAX I've encountered over the last week has had the shield. Each MAX ability is designed to counter the other. Lockdown MAX has insane forward-arc DPS, but Aegis Shields can storm through it, and ZOE can go around it. Aegis can counter ZOE simply by raising the shield and facing the ZOE user. Lockdown will tear ZOE users apart in ludicrously short time if they can't get out of the arc of fire. ZOE should not be nerfed. Quite apart from the fact that it's about time VS had something worth using right off the bat for once, removing or nerfing the agility would make ZOE MAXes unable to counter the other two if using their new abilities. If ZOE gets a cooldown, so should the other two. If ZOE loses agility, then Lockdown needs to provide less of a fire-rate increase, and Aegis needs to take less damage. Changing any of the MAX abilities from what they are now will create a balance problem, not solve one. All three should remain exactly as they are.
I agree, I still haven't seen many lockdowns, but when facing the best NC outfit in our server I realized the effectiveness of the Aegis Shield when used properly, ZOE requires less skill to be effective? Probably, but you should balance skills based on their effectiveness when used by good players, and when used by good players, both ZOE and Aegis are very effective (can't say about the Lockdown yet), if you nerfed ZOE or buffed Aegis then the good NC players would definitely have an edge.
I'm all for ZOE if it gives a dual burster VS MAX the confidence to charge my dual Mercy K5 MAX. This has happened twice lately. I swear the pink glow has hallucinogenic properties. I've also C4ed more MAXes (specifcally, ZOE MAXes) in a week than I have since PS2 launched.
Shrug i dont get it. You "feel" its not overpowered because you "think" people are just trying out the ZoE max, and it's not because of ZoE? ZoE removes a major limitation of the MAX, mobility. It was stated on release that MAX's where balanced by mobility. It's like if you gave tanks the ability to fly. It doesn't matter how fast they can fly. It would negate many things like gate shields that are used to balance the tank. Everything that i can think of that balances MAX's in battle, like dumbfire rockets, flanking them, in ability to escape, C-4 drops, ETC, is based on MAX speed and manueverability. Further more, TR loses all its mobility and NC loses all its offense and a portion of its mobility, excentuating these weakness's. the 20% more damage, which comes out to about 4-8 damage per bullet since its calculated after MAX resists, does not in anyway shape or form accounts for the amount of times the ZoE can dodge that damage. Essentially you get a higher form of damage midigation with the draw back being a lesser form of damage midigation. Now you can say "we are making this up" all you want. The reason the VS are fielding 30% ZoE max's and 30% engi's isnt because they want to try it out, it's because it's damn effective.
Ironically enough jump jets would probably have caused a lot less problems than ZOE but I guess thanks to ZOE people are finally willing to accept them just so we can get rid of this abomination. With jump jets you can't run away from C4 for example, you're still as slow as before and indoors they're practically worthless. Their best use would be to try and outmaneuver locked down MAX units or get in a good position to shoot past the NC shield from high ground. Give us our jump jets back SOE and scrap ZOE, I hate that pixy glow.
You ARE making it up. ZOE hit registration works just fine. I notice the extra damage a hell of a lot while using it, and I've been one-shot by Engi Mana turrets more times than I can count. People who don't believe that the damage differential is enough have never tried ZOE in combat. ADAD is a myth, as is ZOE MAXes not registering hits. If you're seeing either, you have connection problems, or you're brain-dead. Neither are the fault of the ZOE module. The reason VS are actually fielding MAX units now has been stated so many times it's barely worth repeating - they're actually useful now and can go toe to toe with other MAXes. 'Seeing more of them' is a direct result - players are actually certing into them now. We've started pulling the same MAX numbers as the TR & NC, and suddenly both empires are running and whining like scared children. If the agility gets nerfed, it will be a pointless ability. All three MAX abilities are designed to counter the others: TR have insane front-arc DPS, but the NC can plow through it and the VS can go around it. Nerf the agility and we can't get around either NC or TR MAXes anymore, and we end up slaughtered by both. Agility is supposed to be one of our faction traits, but oho no, as soon as we get something agile, the entire community of morons moans and whines until their empire is back on top. It's ******* disgusting.
I would have to agree with the OP. The Blueshift sale was a bigger boost to my MAX than ZOE was. I still remember running my max out to a lightly defended base the day I bought my blueshift, and I sat on the point guarding it with my quasar + blusshift. 7 people came at me one after another, and they all died. If there had been an engineer around, I would have kept that streak going a lot longer.
This right here is where the answer lies. I try out all kinds of things after a patch. I'm primarily a max pilot. (Almost maxed out certs) After they added Zoe i see maybe 1-2 more VS maxes per battle. Almost always dead on the ground. Zoe gives a false sense of hope to a newbie or bad max pilot. hehe
The VS MAX was ALWAYS useful. It was as good as, or better than, the famous "Mercy", had a better AV than the TR pre GU08, and arguably the best hybrid setup. In fact the old Cosmos was a Mercy with free extended mags. Same effectiveness, 1000 certs cheaper. The "VS MAX is useless" was a forum meme propogated by people who never tried used them, or, used them with a 0-cert 0-armour hybrid setup vs a dual AI upgraded setup... and that applies to ANY MAX. And this is the hypebole and BS I was talking about. I wouldn't say "everything" but mobility IS highly important for ground combat. That's why I prefer charge on all my AI MAXes. I sort of agreed with this when I said ZOE was the best of the new abilities. The mobility can help mitigate the extra damage, and increased speed is always handy. Furthermore, as you (and I) pointed out, the mobility loss of the TR and NC abilities make them unattractive in many situations. But to say that the mobility is a higher form of damage mitigation is plain wrong. Unless you have encountered the "hordes" of ADAD strafers who can dodge bullets Matrix style. But there's something we often leave out of the arguments.... Remember charge? It still exists as an option. In the frantic rush to compare their new toys, many people overlook the fact we still have charge. It allows you to escape dumbfires, C4 etc even better than ZOE; whilst it has cooldown, it allows you to "warp out" of battles in a way ZOE cannot. For me, lockdown is primarily for use with fractures (frightening firepower) and AA. I don't use it for AI at all. However I feel the ability to swap between lockdown and charge for different loadouts gives TR a very versatile selection which "complement" each other well. For me, I regard lockdown as more an AA or AV ability. People are comparing the new abilities with each other, which is fair enough. I can't exactly claim "apples and oranges" but the new MAX abilities DO seem designed for completely different roles (fixed firepower, mobility, defense) and it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect one to be better than other in specific circumstances or jobs. But do they also compare the new abilities with the one it directly replaces, as well? Is ZOE OP compared to Charge? I'd argue it isn't. Playing solo (without organised squad/engies) I went on killstreaks of 5, 20, 40, and 30 my last few times I pulled a Mercy MAX. On each streak I repeatedly escaped roomfulls of enemies, sprinted out trouble, and crossed vehicle-infested open spaces using charge. I repeatedly returned to a base or Sunderer to resupply or get repairs from random engineers. I could not have done this with ZOE. Neither would having "OP" ZOE have given me the ability to insta-gib a roomful of opponents whilst simultaneously magically dodging their bullets. In fact, crossing open ground in a glowly MAX would be a death sentence with vehicles around. That's just a sample, but there are plenty of times where charge > ZOE. And everyone has charge.
The biggest proof that ZOE is not actually OP is in the world pops, the 4th faction didn't switch to VS after GU09! We're 22% right now on Waterson lol
ZOE basically becomes an upgrade for the VS max that can be used in any situation. Also speed is point for point far better than mitigation in any FPS. Being able to move faster is such an advantage that you could make the ZOE take even more damage and still be OP. Charge sucks compared to something you can turn on and off in an instant. Charge is only good if you know exactly where you are going and if its safe. Killed plenty of charging maxes. ZOE is a straight upgrade to charge.
Just a very quick post from me, I didn't have the chance to do anything more than skim-read comments, so I'm hoping this hasn't been mentioned; I think they did the same thing they did when the introduced MBT abilities, they 'balanced' out some of the weaker aspects, or just buffed some in general, and THEN they brought out a compound buff with the new abilities. All MAX units have a very low TTK against infantry (with certain weapons, more than others), this combined with a new fancy abilities means people do use it as a scapegoat, something to throw their frustration towards. I think that the 'compounded' effect is the result, we see a larger disparity than we would normally have. VS and TR MAX weaponry did need some tweaking, heck, I still think NC ones do. Throwing in something that makes them exponentially stronger AFTER is what can result in trouble, and then things being 'over-nerfed'. I'm not a fan of NS weaponry being usable with the new abilities, it does create a disparity, it creates a gap in an area it really shouldn't affect things.From my own experiences, this is more an issue with air-balance than ground/AV balance, there is a noticeable difference, even with bursters being on the low-end of the buffs. Keep in mind, I'm not directing this against just VS, I think that the Lockdown ability is in the same boat for AA. I honestly don't feel that either of them needs to tweaked much, I think that all 3 MAX abilities are very powerful in their own right, albeit some are more niche than others. If I had to make suggestions, I would add a cooldown to the toggle function on ZOE, possibly toning the performance on some of the weapons that were already buffed before the ability, and just negating most, if not all of the ability boosts to bursters. As for rank 5 only making 1-2 more bullets difference, that is actually a pretty big thing, you may need to drop 2k certs, but infantry need to choose between nanoweave or not, and that (in it's current state) is about the difference it provides.
Honestly, I look past MAX in general. I'm still quite fresh on PS2 but from my observation and experience so far, the VS needed the ZOE. TR has its strikers and easymode prowlers and easy ESF and fractures and now even the MAX deploy ability, which makes it pretty insane imo especially with bursters. (Deployed bursters with striker aid = no air period) NC has its MAX shotties and 1 hit kill starter sniper and ravens and phoenixs and vanguard shield etc. As much as I hate to admit it, they did kind of get a bad MAX ability but at the same time, it's really good. I have only seen this happen once and I'm very surprised I haven't seen it more (maybe it's just my server), but let's say NC captures allatum botany wing or some spawn room...they can have 1-2 maxes roll out with their shields up and have their men run into the oncoming buildings and start pushing out rather than staying in the spawn room and farming. VS has its what, saron? I guess you can also say it has its lancer but even then, you cannot compare it to the other 2's faction rockets. Even the new MAX weapons TR/NC got better ones imo. Back to MAX's, let's say the most common loadouts in open field is: TR - Fractures, NC - Ravens, VS - Blueshifts (Maybe vortex but I see way more blueshifts than anything especially after sale and 'cause of so many ants in the field which makes ZOE fun with it). Blueshifts cannot damage vehicles like fractures/ravens can while the fractures/ravens still do good DPS to infantry. That's just my opinion and observation, and I'm sure I'm stupid and wrong on many levels etc. VS needed the ZOE and sure, maybe the speed can be a little nerfed but even then, it was still needed.
