ZOE max is still to powerfull

Discussion in 'Test Server: Discussion' started by Nocturnal, May 29, 2013.

  1. Spookydodger


    Isn't useful in a crash?

    The front MAXes go in with shields up, negating the first wave of rockets and machine guns that are all aimed right at the teleporter / doorway. While they do that, it covers those behind them, who are not maxes, to throw debilitating grenades over their heads, making the defenders lambs to be slaughtered. Maybe they should make the off-arm still able to fire, but it's hardly useless in a MAX crash. TR get less utility out of a MAX crash in those first few seconds coming through the door / teleporter.

    And you will never ever have abilities shared so broadly between factions. It's supposed to be asymmetric warfare, ie each side is not the same but overall they balance out. I'm not saying it's entirely balanced now, but it much closer to being balanced now than it was before, where VS MAXes were novelties.

    I dare say that VS MAXes were probably the most balanced of all the MAXes in terms of balance to infantry. They didn't shine anywhere but they had their support uses and obvious drawbacks. The other two factions had great MAXes that I often saw in numbers far greater to VS MAXes. Now I see them in nearly equal numbers.
  2. Spookydodger


    One more bullet to kill, on a weapon with a fire rate approaching 400 rpm, is a truly insignificant amount of time.

    I tried it in the VR. I tried to squeeze off individual shots with a blueshift. At rank 5 (the only rank you can use in the VR... thanks SOE) it literally was 1 bullet faster. 2100 certs to kill with one bullet faster. The blueshift (according to the ps2 piki) is 366 RPM. That's 6.1 bullets per second. Which means that you just killed someone .16 seconds faster.

    Is that really throwing off the TTK that much?

    And at ranges beyond 30 meters, the accuracy of the blueshift, the most accurate dedicated AI gun that the VS currently possess, was so bad that you hit with perhaps 1 in 4 shots at best (crouched) while firing bursts. So you might see a 1-2 second TTK reduction on what was previously a 8-10 second time to kill at that range. At that range you are easy meat for infantry weapons and crouching and not moving completely negates the mobility buff. So in reality you have almost no accuracy at ranges beyond 30 meters and the damage buff doesn't mean anything appreciable.

    So you have to understand what benefit the damage buff is: you get to kill aircraft and tanks UP TO 20% faster. I say "up to" because we are still talking about the damage buff at rank 5. I doubt I will ever go beyond rank 4.
  3. Spookydodger


    40% armor reduction at rank 1, down to 20% armor reduction at rank 5 (which costs some 2100 certs). Showing up as the brightest point of light on the battlefield from ranges beyond effective killing range for all but bursters. If I stand near 2 other MAXes doing AA, and I turn on ZOE and don't even shoot, I am nearly always the first unit to get shelled. I've done tests with this. Nothing says "shoot me" like Disco Fever. That is far far far from "Zero".

    This is the same argument that saw the magrider get nerfed into insignificance and then slowly raise up to useful levels again. All it had was its mobility and stability (accuracy) in trade for reduced damage output.

    I will grant you that increased mobility is probably the most powerful weapon any army can have, but it is also a weapon that must be wielded by someone with foresight and intelligence to make good use of it. Most players can take advantage of that as efficiently as they can use ESFs: ie they plow into the ground the moment situations are not optimal. I see a lot of dead ZOE MAXes on the other side of the fence. ZOE MAXes who didn't use effective cover, hit and run tactics, or have sufficient support.

    Of all 3 of the MAXes abilities, the ZOE is the least "support friendly" because it gets you shot by your own people while you strafe and run around. ZOE makes a MAX into a chunky ninja.
  4. Spookydodger


    Its usefulness isn't worth the cost. Nearly everyone I run with prefers comets. They can 2 shot infantry (which takes a second), and still do good damage with decent accuracy against armor. Vortex is only good against armor (The chargeup time and accuracy needed make anti-infantry duty a "last resort") and generally only useful against armor (or MAXes) in 2 situations:

    When you know armor/MAXes is right around cover that you can retreat behind so you can charge up, pop out, fire, and go back
    When the armor/MAX is between 60 and 100 yards, the effective limit of aiming ability without some sort of ADS / scope sight.

    If I need something like the Vortex, I am MUCH better off getting my HA Lancer. Better long range aiming ability, less cost, and I can switch to my LMG for anti-infantry duty.
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  5. Spookydodger


    He said "prove it" not rehash conjecture. There was a whole thread dedicated just to a request for proof of MAX adad warping. The only 2 videos I ever saw in the 14 pages I read it for, were the following:

    • A TR MAX, pre ZOE, warping around from either cheating or extreme latency.
    • A ZOE MAX jagging their mouse around while moving forward or backwards, moving very quickly. However it was never fired on to show it was being hit more or less than before. It wasn't warping anywhere, just moving really fast and certainly not beyond the ability of someone to shoot it.
    And the whole crux of why it is OP has been ADAD warping (unshown) and "MAXes are supposed to be slow, not fast like infantry".
    So we have no proof for one (That I have ever seen, and I've read a lot) and antiquated notions because something is doing an action it didn't do before and blurring the line between one unit and another (a MAX and infantry). Not unlike how the prowler ability blurs the line between Phalanx Turret and Tank, and the Aegis shield blurs the line between MAX and MANA AI Turret. Both allow those units to do things that other units cannot do.
    If EMP grenades disabled ZOE for a time like they probably should do, then I bet people would complain that they are being forced to bring Infiltrators to deal with MAXes.
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  6. ShadowAquilaX


    I'm hard pressed to argue with you on that as I'm sure an NC shield MAX can do just as good if not better in most indoor encounters (rooms). The TR can do it the same as I have seen it done in the past, but NC and VS are better at it, yes.
    In that particular video, the VS MAX had the better position and used it accordingly (probably due to more experience).
    I remain positive that if the roles had been reversed the TR MAX would have fared better.
  7. Cryptek

    I'm pointing out that there's more to the game than 1 ability compared to 2 other abilities and that you need to take that into consideration to validate a point.

    But even if you focus entirely on ZOE which is a flawed premise in of itself: Mobility is negated the bigger the battle gets, that is why the magrider is a terrible vehicle for forming a tank column.

    The same is true for ZOE, the mobility is powerful in skirmish sized battles, however it does not help you when you are in the big fights, where you just have to straight up move in and take an objective, because every entrance is heavily defended. You cannot out manouvre an enemy when they are dug in. The 20% extra damage you take however, will be a death sentence if you don't have the common sense to not use your ability in those situations, in which case you would have been better off sticking with the charge ability, because it beats ZOE out when it comes to rapidly repositioning yourself, whether for an offense or retreat.
  8. Bill Hicks


    First of all. The Zoe glow is not even close as visible as the Heavy shield. The enemy is not shooting at your friends, which means that you can draw fire and allow your allies to kill them. You can use ZOE to run to different spot or just turn it off if you cannot dodge the damage. Its useful for every situation.

    I see tons of other non ZOE maxes dead on the side of the road because they couldnt dodge the damage.

    Magrider was not nerfed into insignificance, and wasnt raised back ( bug fix)
  9. Spookydodger


    Are you mad? A glowing blue shield that is only in front of the MAX is LESS visible than a whole-body tribute to Liberace. It's a huge, electric crackling purple and pink haze. Maybe whatever settings you are running the game at make it less visible? At least dark blue matches the color of NC MANA turrets. From aircraft, depending on which way the MAX is facing, it either is mostly not visible or potentially even a thin slice. Potentially a huge segment, but from that angle it is also the most protecting. Yes, ZOE is useful for every situation. To balance that, it is less useful for damage and anti-useful for damage resistance. Cert up into maximum sprint and you can move faster, more often, than ZOE without the drawbacks of visibility and resistance and without the benefit of 12-20% more damage.

    And yes, there is a "benefit" to being visible if you are drawing fire for your companions, but also a deleterious quality if you yourself wish to not die.

    Tons is irrelevant, only the percentages. No, not the percentages of how many special-ability MAXes die versus non-special abilities. But what percentage of players use MAXes across the different factions. The numbers are equalizing after a brief surge due to "newness". ZOE MAXes still die, and they require more care with use because now it is much easier to put yourself in a bad situation. It took a few times of being gunned down like a dog to realize that I wasn't superman, and I needed to be REALLY careful in order to be useful.

    And the Magrider lost quite a lot of its strafing speed and strafing power. The power was kinda bogus, because being able to go up impossible hills was obviously a bug, but the speed went down enough that you had to have rival chassis level 3 to get it back to where it was stock. That didn't make it insignificant by itself, to be sure. The prowler's lockdown buff, accuracy enhancements, and infantry proliferation of AV weapons did the rest. Yes, part of that was due to more bugs in the implementation of the balance changes, but the end result was the same. And it was of the end-result that I was speaking because others are speaking of removing the speed/mobility boost entirely, and to my mind that is the only true advantage that both Magriders and ZOE has.
  10. Sabreur

    I don't know about balance, but the speed boost is by far the most fun part of ZOE. I'm terrified that we'll end up with something utterly boring, like another charge-up mechanic or something.
  11. blackdiamond

    Just to throw in my 2 cents from a TR perspective, between all the MAXs, the TR was the only one to maintain their max ability from PS1. The VS have gotten an agility boost + increased TTK (PS1 they were essentially MAX + Light Assault [having jetpacks]) and the NC MAX has gained (essentially) increased survivability + gap closer. Both of these are pretty deadly combo's for how the game is laid out compared to PS1.

    IMO, the lockdown for the TR really showcased in the tight hallways/bottlenecks that were in PS1 (there were a lot of tunnels with long hallways, and tighter quarters to fight with under main bases). The lockdown here allowed for a couple TR MAXs to hold the line for an extended amount of time given the proper support. This was the benefit, they excelled at indoor defense.

    PS2 is much more open. There are few indoor bottlenecks and it's "easy" (in comparison) to get behind a MAX. I don't find the ability to enhance the TR MAX nearly as much as the other two factions. PS2 is very open, indoors and out. There are multiple ways to get around and avoid chokepoints.

    I find that VS and NC seem to have definite benefits out in the open with their abilities, while being locked down in place outside generally doesn't help a whole lot (I think the exception mainly being with a burster). While I think to a certain extent all these abilities are definitely "situational", I find the TR to have the most situational issues with their current ability (if that makes sense, basically the most limits to where the ability is useful).

    In any given fight, I find the TR using lockdown the most to spawn camp, with the occasional use in Biolab fights (mainly where the SCU shield gen used to be). The other two factions I notice using their abilities in pretty much every fight (NC less than VS though). Granted, this might be selective perception on my part, but I'd say most could probably agree just by looking at the abilities. ZOE maxes are a nightmare to run across for me in almost any situation, especially with the availability of the very versatile Comet.
  12. Vadimir

    The 20% figure people quote comes mainly from this vid:



    The MAX in the video has Lv1 ZOE, doesn't have kinetic armour and during the test takes 20% extra bleed through damage from small arms fire. However this is not the full picture as all evidence suggests that ZOE reduces your resistance and therefore causes you to take between 20 to 36% extra bleed through damage depending on damage type and armour level.

    Do you have a source for that?

    I ask because it conflicts with what SOE have said and with tests carried out by myself and others.

    I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm genuinely interested, we have been given so little raw data on ZOE that anything new and credible is much appreciated. I actually ran the numbers for ZOE's armour debuff the other day (https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2...-stats-for-the-zoe.127681/page-2#post-1812705) but of cause that was with Lv5 ZOE, so if you have any new credible information, especially if it conflicts with my numbers, I'd love to see it :) .
  13. Spookydodger


    I saw something in a few threads that seem to be credible, but rather than guess at it, I'm going to try it in-game with my level 3 or 4 zoe and have my friend shoot at me with it on and off, then use another char and buy level 1. That way I'll have a more 'scientific' way of going about it.
  14. Stew360


    the vs theme of mobility shouldnt apply on maxs since maxs and infantry are way to close to each others and the balance of maxs vs infantry as all been base on speed and speed only

    In order to get the mobility 9( balance ))

    the ZOE maxs will need a 50 % armor nerf

    Also a 2x less stopping power that way it could be considered (( balanced ))

    SO i think you migth recosider this , and try to get another ability that will replace ZOE something that is situational , and not a overall insane buff to anything like the ZOE is actually
  15. Shockwave44

    Stew, give it up. Everything you have said will not be done by the devs. You've become white noise.
  16. Taiga


    if abilites are going to "blur the lines" between things, then i would much rather give the max jumpjets than speedhacks.
  17. Spookydodger


    So would I. Can you imagine the game change to roof combat when suddenly VS MAXes can get up on top of rooves where the only real threat would be C4, not missiles (unless they peak over). I would be in heaven.

    The thought of a squad of jumpjet MAXes propelling up a cliff is titillating!
  18. Hagestol

    And no engineers and no resurrects. Still worth it!
  19. Serpent808

    Personally, if NC and TR players are going to continue this QQ fest about the 50% increased in Mobility with VS-MAXs at 5/5 ZOE, just take it off already. In addition, re-change the counter balanace with the following ideas:

    1. Increase the 5/5 ZOE, Damage Output for all weapons from 20% to 50%, keep the 20% reduction to damage mitigation.
    2. Keep the 20% Damage Output, and give us a shield that's invulnerable to all damage types for 10 seconds with -100% mobility; Nanite repair could be used while this ZOE is enabled.

    Nitty gritty details, I think NC and TR players don't like being shot and chased by a VS-MAX because:

    1. Instead of killing infantry at Close Quarters Combat (CQC) with 6 shots, it's easy to down infantry in 3 to 4 shots.
    2. TR and NC Infantry can't outrun the purple, mobile Meat-grinder on steroids because of it's 50% increase in mobility--even though I have seen TR/NC Infiltrators and Heavy Assaults, with the use of 3rd party hacks, have an increased running speed that would out-pace a VS-MAX with ZOE easily, and turn it off when they feel they are clear of danger.

    For those of you TR players who think LOCKDOWN isn't OP, you're wrong. With a 50% increase in rate of fire, muzzle velocity, improved accuracy, and faster reload speeds, you're just a static, OP Meat Grinder. If an outfit isn't utilizing it's 5/5 LOCKDOWN MAXs at any choke point with an ENG or 2, you're doing it wrong. If Dual Mercys have an RPM of 500, with 5/5 LOCKDOWN, that's roughly around 750 RPMs, or roughly 8 to 9 bullets being shot out per second. That's like a mini-gun on steroids x2. In addition, you take zero reductions in damage mitigation. So your survivability actually goes up. Ya. You loose 100% mobility for 3 seconds to enable it, and 2 seconds to disable it. C'mon! You're actually downside is running out of ammo to fast...

    With regards to NC MAXs. You're OP before GU09, and SOE saw that. You didn't need to be OPx2 after GU09. That's why you got a shield. It be nice if you could shield bash infantry, but I think it's rather balance on your end.

    A lot of players need to realize, overall, a Light Assault shouldn't be able to 1-shot a MAX. Ideally, you shouldn't be able to do circles around it, or knife it to death. MAXs are walking, mobile tanks. If you can't knife a Vanguard to death, the same point of view should apply to a MAX. Now if you can 1-shot a max with small arms fire, two things are possibly true if you did:

    A. You're superman, and you threw the bullet from your hand at the MAX's head, just killing the operator inside, thus 1-shoting the MAX.
    B. You're not using a gun, but instead, pulled out a bazooka, and blew the MAX's face away at point blank range, thus 1-shotin g the MAX...

    So if a MAX is a walking infantry meat grinder, than they are living up to their expectations, in game... Translation: A TR or NC infantry shouldn't just stand in front of a VS-MAX with ZOE enabled, and have a derp-look on it's face with the expectation that I could just walk away like a noob with the assumption that it won't be fired upon. If the TR and NC community are QQing about it to much, it's either working, or it's working over-efficiently... In which case, TR and NC players either need to adapt and suck it up, or QQ more until tweaks are made...

    My only question to SOE is what is the theoretical survivability of all MAXs in their little world. I think a MAX, from all three factions, should have a life span of more than 7 minutes in a 50+ infantry fire-fight. Compromises can be made, of course, the MAX takes a lot of rocket to the face, because it stood out in the open... That sound plausible to 1-shot a MAX. What about a Vanguard running it over. That sounds plausible too To small arms fire, I think it should just be an needle ***** annoyance to all MAXs at the expense of having extremely low mobility in comparison to infantry... A lot of "Clink clink clink" sounds and you ignore it unless you shoot back at them...
  20. Neutraz

    The amount of vanu hate in this game is too damn high!