ZOE Is still a problem.

Discussion in 'MAX' started by Ned, Aug 6, 2013.

  1. ColdCheezePizza

    ZOE and max's in general need their own distinct minimap icon, nothing worse then seeing a red dot on the map you run around a corner to kill it and bump into a max instead.

    Also Blueshifts need an accuracy or damage falloff nerf imo they are way too accurate at range, my zoe with extended clips can mow down entire squads from a mile away with no effort at all sometimes.
    • Up x 1
  2. Clockwerk

    Yeah right, how about give Vanu the NC MAX Aegis.

    I'm sorry but Aegis is just too god damn strong in number, a few Max line up with Aegis on can pretty much rush through Bio Lab like a tsunami.
    I got 3 shot on a Max by the NC Max WITHOUT ZOE on; it happened not only once. If there's a nerf it should be on the NC max or just give Vanu the NC Aegis if you want to nerf the ZOE, let's see which one is more painful.
  3. BITES

    ... wut?...

    I'm thinking maybe you were asleep and dreaming this .. or drunk. Since "RUSH" when using the shield equates to "waddle as slow as ****.."

    I'm beginning to lean towards drunk ... since theres virtually no MAX equippable weapon that can "Three shot a Max WITHOUT ZOE" .. (or even with ZOE ...)... I'm happy to be corrected on this ... but I'm thinking someone both barrelled you with dual falcons, three times, which is six shots...

    I can guarantee you that anyone who had the option of ZOE or Aegis ... the situational coffee table would be dropped faster than a LA carrying a C4 walking into a MAX party.

    Sure ... YMMV .. but most of your statements here are pretty out there, like waaaaaay out there.
    • Up x 1
  4. Dethfield



    Actually, three-shotting a MAX might be possible (3 shots from left and right guns), assuming said MAX does not have kinetic armor. I once instantly killed a ZOE MAX with grinders, and i asked him how much HP he had and he said about 1/3rd. 3-shotting from full HP might be stretching it but usually an NC MAX in CQC (where most infantry fights just happen to take place) will obliterate a ZOE MAX very easily.

    As for your other two statements, i would take the aegis any day. And that clockwerk's statement may seem "out there" by this forum's standards, but lets remember that what is popular opinion here often is not reflected in game.
  5. Xasapis

    Indeed, the first thing I do when I get caught next to an NC MAX, is to close ZOE, fast. The funny thing is that ZOE MAXes now produce some of the psychological results of the early NC MAXes. I've been caught off guard by NC MAXes at hugging range and they turned tail and run.
  6. Clockwerk


    None of your statements make any sense, and in fact the so called "Rush" equates to "waddle as slow as ****" has proven many times to take over the Bio Lab so effectively that you just need to play Vanu to pick up their squirming sound during Bio Lab fight against NC Max.

    For the second statement, I'm not so sure if you are disabled in comprehending the simple facts but if you shoot 1 shot from right then another shot from left then that's 2 shots, but if you shoot both left & right at once then that's 1 shot (so 3 times equates to your so called "6 shots"). Don't tell me that the shot gun one shot people because it shoot 11 shots blah blah blah... that's bull **** one shot is one shot doesn't matter the pellet count.

    For the last one but not least in term of nonsense, if you get C4 by LA then you deserve to blow up with all your bowels splatter like a fire work since NC max is already somewhere up there in the world of absurdity and start blaming your self either being a lonewolf or just not paying attention.
  7. Takara


    I would call being able to be one shotted in a max suit a pretty significant drawback. To be good with ZOE...you actually have to know when to turn it off. You don't just keep it on 24/7...people who do this are idiots. Decimators/Tanks/Liberators/Harassers can all one shot a ZOE max. I'm not sure about the default rocketlaunchers for each empire, but I know they at the very least put you into a situation where a few rounds from the rifle will kill you afterward. As an AA max you put ZOE on only just before shooting at a plane, as rocketpods will eat you up...ZOE lights you up like a Christmas tree and they know where the rounds are coming from. Same goes with fighting tanks with Comets.

    Ultimately the NC Shield increases MAX survivability, call it situational if you want...but when you have Engi support Aegis shield can make you neigh invulnerable in Bio and or point house defense. Lockdown on the other hand...is defiantly situational. good for AA MAX/Fracture MAX outside, and can also with infantry support be VERY hard to deal with in CQC. Not as good as Aegis shield...but hey :p This weakness is made up by other empire specific things.

    Aegis has ZERO drawback, using it right makes it a flawless buff! You use it when the enemy has the advantageous firing position on you then back up into a place where you choose the battleground that is best for your max and when you are reloading. Which means Technically the only time someone can hurt you is by getting around you, or when you are ready to fire.

    Mobility is...by far the strongest thing about ZOE...and it does take away the lumbering slow MAX that makes it easy for infantry to get away. But if ZOE was really a problem, you would see the same effect the Striker had in TR territory. (( Strikers kept all Air and Vehicles to a rather safe distance from ANY TR zerg. They were typically broken in facility fights where they were forced to confront infantry)) ZOE MAX units do not have free reign over the territory they inhabit like the striker did. What you see with ZOE is that infantry have lost the ability to simply hit and run tactics (fireing rockets to run away and repair) in solo combat mode. Which in my honest opinion is fine! No infantry should win a 1/1 fight that isn't stealth attack or just plane superior skill. The Aegis shield provides the same thing to the NC max...the TR lockdown does not...however it does give them the ability to provide unmatched firesupport to surrounding infantry which is just as useful in facility capture locations.
    • Up x 1
  8. Pruto

    This is funny, I was playing mercies again today. Despite the nerfed bullet damage, despite it being a continuous fire weapon, people still drop like a sack of turds at what is considered shotgun range. There is nothing absurd about the NC MAX anymore. At best the shotguns makes an inevitable death a little faster than other AI MAX weapons at the cost of versatility.

    Could you provide some math to back up that claim? All my experiences so far show that a full health ZOE will at least take one deci hit and survive.

    It truly is. I only pick the shield over charge in a tower or biolab fight basically. Anything that opens myself to multiple angles, or a chance that I might have to disengage makes charge the more desirable choice, which is pretty terrible.

    Except for slowed movement and the inability to fire while using it. In addition, choosing Aegis anchors you to the place you will be fighting as you have no charge. This is not true for ZOE, which retains some of the disengagement capability of charge, and it's essentially a straight upgrade from charge. When people on other factions are either pretty divided on their ability (NC) or straight up use one over the other (TR), and then you have near unanimous use of the VS ability, there is a problem. Either with how the new abilities are intended, or how some of them are implemented.

    You are indirectly making the argument that the ZOE is indeed OP. Tactics that work against other MAXes simply don't work against a ZOE, making it a more effective and intimidating infantry grinder than the other two choices.
  9. Takara

    Admitting it is good isn't = to saying it is OP. It is the idea that anything that might be better at one thing over another empire's making it OP isn't the same thing. For some reason the Mag's cannon suffers from velocity nerfs still....and Vanguard and Prowler still aim higher and have a much easier time fighting off Air...yet no one is throwing around OP. Vehicle shield gives the vanguard insta advantage in any fight vs other tanks.

    The idea that one thing is better then another doesn't instantly make it OP or even a problem. The over all balance of the game is not only pretty decent right now, it isn't even close to being pushed in any directing by MAX units. Dual grinders are really quite fine, I was using them today and with no engi support/medic/autorepare/shield I found a point house and happily sat it in killing TR till I was out of ammo and died. I couldn't have done that with ZOE with out nanite repair. Yet I'm not here crying OP. I simply disagree with your points. Unfortunately, these forums are far from a genuine discussion. Most people make up their mind then disregard anything said by the other side.

    In the very end of things...one can find someone to tell you any particular weapon in the game is better then another. Personally I think Prowlers and Vanguards are better then Mags...but yet I use mags and do just fine! The best way to deal with a ZOE max is using another MAX. Again...ZOE needs to be turned on and off all the time, taking extra damage against other MAX units or when being rushed by enemy infantry is a negative. I turn it off in these situations all the time...anytime i take the attention of more then one person or any vehicle turning ZOE off is the right move :p To think otherwise is ignorant of the actual usefulness of it.
  10. Pruto

    You misunderstand, the problem doesn't necessarily come from it being better. After all there has to be a best in class for each category of weapon and vehicle, the problem is that this ability changes that category fundamentally and takes away it's biggest drawback. So it's not that it is better, it's that a ZOE MAX is much different from a traditional MAX, and you said it yourself, the traditional tactics that work against other MAXes no longer work against a ZOE. That is a problem because it not only means a ZOE MAX is better, but it is in a class by itself when compared to other MAX suits.

    If you want to create a category of weapons and vehicles, you need to make sure all of them are roughly comparable in ability and intended function. Something that flies outside the bounds of their category is OP. Something like a MAX that completely counters other MAXes by one clipping them in a few seconds. Or something like a tank that can fly up cliffs while others can't.
  11. Takara


    If this is really your issue with it...Evolve or perish...learn to deal that is all there is. The fact you are upset that you need to use a different tool for a different job then you are just being lazy. You want the game around you to change so YOU don't have too. It is just silly to expect something like this. /ends involvement in conversation
  12. Pruto

    Well that took you all of one post for you to go from 0 to full on sperg.

    It's almost like you don't have an answer to how your favorite little crutch can operate so far beyond the parameters of the other MAXes without being OP
  13. Xasapis

    I think you're being a bit unfair, or at least disregarding how different the NC MAX was during its first six months of its life compared to the other two. Strategies that worked for the other two MAXes did not work for the NC MAX. People still found workarounds and strategies that did work however, so a precarious balance was found. The biggest inconsistency back then and the reason that ultimately led to balance passes on the NC MAX was the ability to kill as fast and as easily enemy MAXes as if they were infantry units.

    The problem today is very similar to the problem the Magrider was (and is still) facing post the very first balance adjustments. Basically, too many things have changed besides the NC MAX over the course of time and introduction of new weapons and vehicles. New anti-vehicle weapons that work wonders against MAXes were introduced (at least for TR, although VS post ZOE have found their love for Comet). New abilities have been introduced that also change the dynamics regarding the balance between the MAXes.

    I believe that it's only fair that some further balance passes should be implemented so as both to bring the NC MAX up to current times and challenges and also to improve any inconsistencies (for example, improve or change how lockdown works). The very first thing that needs to be reverted as far as the NC MAX is concerned (in my opinion), is the magazine count.
  14. Furluge

    Decimators cannot, nor have they ever been able to, one shot a ZOE max. As far as I know the only thing that will one shot a ZOE Max infantry-wise is C4 and I haven't tested it yet. I have seen tests for ZOE. The ZOE penalty generaly equals a few extra bars of damage, not enough to one shot, especially considering ZOE makes it easier for you to avoid anti-max weaponry. No, ZOE's problem is that it's advantages are designed directly to negate anti-max weaponry, it's weakness isn't enough to make up for it, and it's weakness can be negated with armor. As long as other empires give up 100% of something for their buffs ZOE is going to get the nerf calls until it gives up 100% of something for it's buffs.
    • Up x 1
  15. Xasapis

    Depends on what armor module you're running with. Kinetic will afford some more leeway. My usual nano repair (kind of a non brainer considering how ZOE cuts you off from engineer support) will leave a ZOE max with two bars of health from full health. That's basically a couple bullets to take down if it's not already damage prior to that. It's just that people are already slightly damaged when the decimator hits, so they see it as an instant kill. AV turret hits have instant killed me though. And obviously fracture MAXes eat my ZOE alive.

    In any case, lockdown needs some serious rethinking or perhaps a transformation to something else. However, that's not a ZOE issue, that's a lockdown issue.
  16. Furluge

    It's not a couple of bars my friend, nevermind the fact that ZOE's properties will make it more likely the decimator will get splash damage and not direct hits compared to other maxes. The survivability of the ZOE vs decimators is greater than other maxes, not less.
  17. Xasapis

    I don't doubt that trying to shoot a glorified heavy is harder to shoot with a decimator compared to ... something slower.On the other hand, it's a lot easier to take out a ZOE MAX with bullets or even, surprisingly enough, AP mines (2x needed).

    Feel free to contact me ingame though and you can see first hand how much damage I take in my ZOE MAX.
  18. iMartyr

    I feel like charge should've been refunded to everybody and given to VS exclusively.
    Prowler anchored mode MAX lock down
    Vanguard shield MAX aegis shield
    Magrider Magburner MAX charge?
    • Up x 1
  19. Takara

    In terms of time spend in class and how often I use a class.
    1 - Engineer = 12 days, 22hours
    2 - Heavy = 59 hours, 47minutes
    3 - Light Assault = 45 hours, 41min
    4 - Infiltrator = 36 hours, 23min
    5 - MAX unit 32hours, 25min
    6 - Medic = 13 hours, 27min

    So as you can see, it isn't my favorite crutch. In fact I spend MORE time in every other class aside the medic. The reason for my comment is that you won't see reason...there is no point to further conversation. A locked down prowler requires a different strategy to fight then any other tank. It FUNDAMENTALLY changes the way you have to deal with the tank. Extra armor, faster reload, faster projectile speed. The vehicle shield on the vanguard FUNDAMENTALLY changes the way you approach NC tanks...you can't rush them because at the first hint of combat they become invulnerable to damage long enough to land 2 shots on your tank at close to medium range. SO YOU HAVE TO CHANGE YOUR TACTICS for each tank...*taps chin* Hrmm yet for some reason these two items are not considers a problem? But if you are required to treat a ZOE MAX differently from other MAX units it becomes an issue?

    Infantry with shotguns require a change in tactics when fighting them in towers or indoors...EVERY vehicle in the game is this way depending on the weapon they use. Vehicle abilities change the way you approach them as well! (ALL MAX abilities do this too) WHY is it a problem when attached to a VS MAX?

    That said it isn't really such a huge change...before people used to simply charge MAX units because they were slow and there was no way in hell they could kill everyone. Now...that has changed. All the MAX unit's are threats. Weather you embrace it or not...the Aegis shield lets NC MAX units EAT Decimators...this is a rather significant bonus considering the TR and VS abilities make them more vulnerable. Ultimately the best way to deal with any MAX unit is Distance, Teamwork, or Flank attack...ZOE or not these are the BEST way to deal with EVERY max and it hasn't changed.

    A Decimator with out ZOE leaves a max at 50% HP (with out flak armor) Decimator with ZOE (no flak armor ) Leaves you less than 3/4ths of your health. Enough for any other class in the game to kill you with one clip or less of their assault rifle/SMG. Under-barrel GL hit ZOE MAX units for 1/3rd of their HP. The vulnerability is there, it is not hard at all to hit MAX units with either of these things. If it was you would see VS win EVERY indoor engagement ... this does not happen, FAR from happens.
  20. BITES

    Your math sucks ... two guns .. one shot each != "one shot" .. You think people would have one plue one sussed right?
    Tell you what .. I'll slow it down for you ... ONE PLUS ONE ... EQUALLLLLSSSSS? ... you can do it ... TWO! yay theres my special guy! Perfect example ... man A shoots man B with a double barreled shotgun, guy is cut in half ... do they write on the report one shot? ..... No. No they do not.
    You could say its burst fire that seems like a one shot (except it still doesn't "one shot" ...), that'll do .. the rest of your drivel isn't worth the text. Cue more strawman arguements (sign of a top guy!).

    Evolve or die.