Wrel, we need a balance update

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by BlackFox, Jun 6, 2022.

  1. Botji

    No, I am talking about dying before the decloak sound has finished playing and its not all infiltrators that have this kind of latency either for what I hope is obvious reasons with PS2 being a online game with servers getting people from a large range of countries.

    As well as some that I am pretty sure are doing it on purpose, though a lot of those are more often than not HA players.

    Things quickly gets quirky when you add client side hit detection and latency into the same game, just as an example if someone has 1 second delay on their updates to the server, it does not matter if their decloak and fire delay is half a second, they still have half a second more to aim and donk someone in the head before they actually decloak on the server and whatever latency the victim has from the server. Literally does not matter what that player does, they are already dead because they got shot in the head half a second before the infiltrator decloaked on their screen, they could run into cover or whatever before the infil decloaks, still dead.

    Now that is very extreme but you and others hopefully get the point.

    *Edited to take a lil less space*
    • Up x 2
  2. JibbaJabba

    The meta squad loadout?

    .... to do what? Pointhold? Scrim on Jaeger? Drive armor? Be memeing ********?

    Make whatever point you are making instead of hiding behind a sarcastic and useless question. If you don't have a point then you're just trolling.
  3. JibbaJabba

    I think one of the big disconnects when discussing this is how it's perceived by each player.

    If you add really crappy network latency and particularly server performance then it really sucks for the infiltrator. For them the decloak on fire becomes nearly broken in how long it takes. When firing you feel like your *** is hung out to dry while you are trying to get a shot off.

    What's not obvious is that this latency and suffering occurs while the infiltrator is still fully cloaked on the other players screen. it may seem like it takes forever to fire, but when the shot occurs it does so before the decloak has finished. It's all appears nearly instant to the player getting shot even if there were hundreds of milliseconds latency prior to the shot being allowed to happen.

    For the other players skill to matter (and this to not be a psychologicalloy frustrating experience) they'll need ~250ms of visual reaction time (150 auditory) plus say 100ms. Anything short of that and the player has no influence on the outcome. Good shot by the infiltrator = dead. Poor shot = you get to actually play.

    As it stands right now damage is occurring about 50ms or so BEFORE the decloak has fully finished so it's impossible.
  4. VV4LL3

    but wait.. .the NSO MAX Hummingbird can hit air at 400m, with projectiles that fly at turtle speed, and it takes 38 hits to down an aircraft. Of course there's options *sarcasm*
    • Up x 5
  5. JibbaJabba

    At least it doesn't give the enemy a notice ahead of time before it's fired at them.
  6. Sumowning


    Specifically the VAST part, as that excuse gets used a lot. By a loud minority of players.

    People claim it's sooooo widespread when it isn't. Scoreboards, meta teams and the like are proof of this.

    See this right here? How come there aren't like full meta-squads of infils running about mass-murdering people? In Jaegar, in skirmish, in live, etc. You know what you see most? Heavies. Straight up Heavies. Because you don't need Infiltrators when you're basically the default answer to everything the game can throw at you.

    The point here, is that no matter how much people you get into a room they can be convinced that a non-fact is true. The whole "infils are OP" thread spam is like walking into a convention of flat-earthers. No amount of evidence will convince them otherwise, they think they're the majority when generally speaking speaking people just leave them to rant because they're not worth engaging.

    And to a degree it can be argued that they kind of are the 'majority' in their own respective circle, if you're at that convention. Then yeah, they are a majority and that argument works, but that's only because they ignore the rest of planet earth who don't give 2 sh**s because they know it's BS.

    Videogame players will tell themselves all kind of dumb s**t, in order to justify their anger towards something they can't overcome. That's not rocket science, that's been around for eons. Lag, OP, controller not working, etc. Anything but taking responsibility for their own death.

    Again, 'fun' is an non-argument because it's inherently subjective. I don't think everything in PS2 is 'fun', doesn't mean they're OP. Dying in a video game is not fun. Regardless of which class is used. That's just reality, or should we just be unable to die?

    And yes you can use science and compare it to video game balance. A balancing act is using facts to balance the gameplay, numbers, tangible evidence that can be recreated, that can be measured.

    And again, "If the vast majority of the community of a video game is complaining".

    What 'vast majority', the vast majority of people inside this flat-earth convention (being the Forums) maybe but that isn't representative of the whole community. The vast majority of Planetside2 don't give 2 sh**s about Infils, as they aren't considered meta by a long-shot. There's literal outfits/squads/platoon in-game where if you play either Light-Assault or Infiltrator, you're considered to be 'throwing' and get booted, you either play Heavy Assault or Medic, and maybe 1 or 2 Engineers.

    The only time you hear complaining, is when the jacked up 3KD Heavies get killed by C4 fairies or Infils, because they're upset they got killed by an 'inferior' class, and they're upset. Or those who don't know any better to counter it/cannot be bothered to counter it.

    Lots of complaining is just air escaping from an over-inflated ego.

    Now, again, I have multiple times. Spitfires target when they are out of cloak, and due to LAG 2 seconds after an infil has cloaked. Also SMG infils killing you 'before you can react' is the point? Because this 'reaction' includes getting one-shot by a shotgun to the face.

    They should react BEFORE they decloak, which again is very much possible if you don't put your back towards an obvious flanking route.

    Again, this point I brought up before: If there's other infantry triggering AP mines. Then you have other things to worry about than just a bunch of infiltrators, because that would mean the enemy zerg is literally knocking on your door. Same thing with random grenades and C4, if that is the case, the current place where you have your mines is NOT a flanking route, that is the route the enemy zerg will take to wreck you.

    A medic, Heavy or Engi isn't going around the whole building to flank you inside of a building. They'll die. And if they pushed up to your building, well yeah you are no longer protected by the mines because you have entire horde about to come and wreck you.

    I'm not even talking about a narrow hallway, I'm talking about your average building with a doorframe. You place the barrier inside the doorframe, and they can't go around and have to jump up an into it to get inside your building and flank you, which is incredibly annoying to do after which they can say hello to AP mines, Spitfire turrets, and if you do what I do, a shotgun to the face.

    Okay so:
    Versus Infantry
    Body part
    Shots to Kill
    After 18m

    Body part
    Shots to Kill

    Default Blackjack Shotgun vs the Armastice SMG.

    Shotgun: 1shot till 18 meters In the chest mind you. Starts dropping off in terms of damage at 8m
    SMG: 8 shots in the chest, 4 shots in the head. Starting dropping off in terms of damage at 6m.

    Not accounting for accuracy, because they both suck with accuracy at that range (not even counting slugs)

    For an SMG to be somewhat at an advantage you'd have to engage at 17m+ Which again it takes 11 bullets. In the chest.
    And again, an SMG is a short range weapon you WANT to be in that 6 meter range and even then a shotgun still outranges it.

    Should I take slugs into consideration, the range is drastically increased. But again if you're using a spread shotgun, to kill targets at 18m+ range, you are doing something wrong.

    So yes, it is very much a counter because an SMG needs to be close.. In fact closer than a shotgun for full damage.
    (also Flechette rounds make this even worse for the SMG as that damage dropoff is WAY lower)

    Again, this is nitpicking at the very definition of 'infiltrator'. Infiltration just means going behind any lines/groups. What you do there, depends on the mission. If you mission is to infiltrate a group and take someone out, or infiltrate a group and gather information. Well, I don't have to tell you that the latter doesn't apply in Planetside2. Spies, Secret agents, intruders, etc.. They still kill too, and when they do it's generally an assassination, you don't have to be called an assassin to stab someone.

    Planetside 2 is an MMOFPS.. That being said, in the same breath. The term Rogue: Is someone who goes against the rest of a group, but you still see the term rogue used as class for stabby/stealthy bois who still very much work with the group/alliance they work with.

    Again, a really weak argument to be had for why an infiltrator cannot kill or be considered DPS, because it's kit, it's weaknesses are in fact made to 'infiltrate' enemy's backline and kill players.

    Work.. Hard? It's a 100 certs. And again, you don't HAVE to have it. You can spot a running cloaked running infil without needing a damn darklight. Not to mention, thermals are easy to get. You are comparing a 100 cert attachment, compared to an infil needing literal RNG gods on their side to drop an exceptional implant. Some people to this day are still trying to get exceptionals having hundreds of hours in the game.

    It's not working hard, to spot a damned infiltrator.

    Not to mention, the sheer hypocrisy is showing here.. Lemme put it in your format: Which is worse, forcing an entire playerbase using a class ability to conform, and to 'work' hard(aka spending 1000's of certs for implant packs) for RNG implants to counter a 100cert tool?

    Or forcing individual people from a loud minority, to work to improve their individual skill to deal with cloakers using the aforementioned tools available?

    Again, that was my whole point of this loud minority of PS2 players being entitled and not wanting to bother with learning to overcome something.

    You're right, it's really not rocket science and I've been saying that from the getgo.
  7. Sumowning

    Also you still have not addressed the following:

    People complain, because again: Rule #1 of Planetside anything you die to is an OP/EZ class, and should be nerfed.

    Counters are made, and are just not being used. Even if they get used, it just leads to: "Oh my gawd! I have to equip a cheap attachment.. To counter something? Outrageous." And will then just lead to "Omg, Infils still OP"

    So yes, I do dismiss them. Because as I've said before with that Heavy that complained, if you're just gonna complain and not put in the SMALL AMOUNT OF EFFORT it requires to be a little aware of your surroundings than you have no right to complain.

    You don't need to be an expert tactician, you do however need tactical knowhow to play an infiltrator and choose your engagements.. Hence the 'infiltrator' part. And if you then use said tactical knowhow to predict how other Infiltrators will act, and thus become better at countering them.

    it's almost like.. If you play a class, you learn their weaknesses and strenghts.. So when you play another class, you already know how to counter your own class you played previously. A.K.A. Literally every weapon/class in every competitive game ever.

    Which is why most entitled loud players are one-trick-pony Heavy mains, that didn't put the effort into learning the enemy class and thus have no clue as to how to counter them.

    And before I see any "But you play mostly infiltrator" comment: It's really really not that hard, nor does it take a long time to figure out how a bloody Heavy works.. And exploit their weakness.

    Okay, and what do you need to do.. To throw said grenade? -> Decloak <- *heavy turns around and proceeds to murder you*

    And also saying that LIMITED USE grenades counter classes is silly.. Any class can yeet a sticky onto a player and 'counter' them, or a normal frag grenade in a group, it's a counter.. Because they're dead. That'd be like saying C4 counters all classes too.

    Also there's a reason why people don't use the new EMP/Conc/Flash AP mines, because the other mines straight up kill the target.

    The only one where this could apply to, is yeeting a EMP grenade in a room with Engi turret/deployables. Because again, that's the point of that to strip the defenders advantage off the Engineer. Even then, you then KNOW someone is coming. To which I say.. SHOTGUN.

    Also Medic Tool, this is 2022, people have health kits? Medic tool barely getting used nowadays for anythin other than ressing and I know you can't debate me on that because player sustain is insane, use AOE Heal Carapace -> Combat surgeon -> Heal yourself and allies which again there's no counter to that.

    Again, you're comparing limited resource grenades that cost nanites.. To not just 1 tool, but also your own new tool (WHICH ARE ALWAYS ON) whilst you can fire. As valid counter, that's a bit of a stretch don't ya think?

    So again, let me sum up your points here:
    - A loud minority claims a class is unfun, despite not wanting to put in the effort.
    - Infil's [Insert thing I died to today] is overpowered.
    - Infil's are a problem, yet meta squads run anything but Infils and Light Assaults.
    - Dying to infiltrators is unfun, despite dying in general being unfun.
    - Your answer to counter infils, is to have more counters infils even though the people moaning refuse to use the first counter, or just in general despise wanting to learn a class's weakness/counter.
    - Not only that, all INFILS should conform to having to get implants worth 1000s of certs and ISO JUST to counter a 100 cert tool.. On top the existing ones.
    - By your definition of 'Infiltrator', they should only be allowed to go behind enemy lines and hope to stare enemies to death.
    - Infils are not meant to DPS, despite LITERALLY only being effective against infantry and having 0 counters to any sort of vehicles unlike other classes.
    - Every one of these salt threads should be taken seriously, because a playerbase that is competitive in nature moaning about other classes they don't play is somehow a foreign concept..
    • Up x 1
  8. VV4LL3

    The Hummingbird? You bet it does! The Humming bird drone flies slower than a galaxy, has the shortest engagement range, and longest time for firing solution. lol. I had some TR friends pace the drones with a Gal and Mosi's, baseline without dive or afterburners can outrun them. The weapon is a joke. Takes like 30+ to drop something too. lol. I will happily take a magazine/ limited ammo for basic improvement to that weapon, and the others -- being immensely situational.
  9. JibbaJabba

    that was the joke :)
    • Up x 3
  10. Exileant

    o_O No Jibs.... It took you 5000 hours for you to get remotely decent at farming... A.K.A. Picking off small fries.... Infiltrators are only really nasty if you are stupid enough to try to fight them on their terms.... Hilariously literally every class has something that can counter them, even still they have one GLARING opening that you obviously overlooked if you are still trying to say that the class is broken.... Fighting Infiltrators is a WELCOME relief for me because they are easiest beaten class.

    :confused: You want crap Nerfed into the dirt to allow you an easier time for your to play the styles you want to play. The game was balanced, PERFECTLY, everything had its place, everything had a counter, and you were not locked into a fight style you did not want to play. You had freedom, but your calls to Nerf under the guise of "balance" now have the game looking and feeling like trash. o_O Because of this, I have not spent a dime on it in just short of a year. I know a ton of people who have cut their funding as well over this.

    So no, we are not all just Gamers playing a game. MOST of us play the game, others whine and cry when they get slapped by something too hard and seek to ruin the game for the majority to suit their shortcomings. ;) There is a HUGE difference.
    • Up x 1
  11. Westphilly0

    (From Reddit)”Why do I, as a defender against a seventy five percent zerg, have a ten second respawn?

    If anyone should have that long of a timer, it should be the overpop attackers, Jesus Christ.”

    It’s the **** like this that make really not eager to play this game
    • Up x 3
  12. Sumowning

    "Infiltrators are only really nasty if you are stupid enough to try to fight them on their terms"

    Buuuuuut no, I should be able to kill them all instantly.. What do you mean I ran into an ambush? xD

    So no, we are not all just Gamers playing a game. MOST of us play the game, others whine and cry when they get slapped by something too hard and seek to ruin the game for the majority to suit their shortcomings. ;) There is a HUGE difference.

    You can tell them as many times as you want, they are too dense to understand this. They rather just want to season the forums with copious amounts of salt.

    We get entitled players using the forums as their personal corner to cry in, yet there are actual problems and systems out there needing attention and development time. Construction, Cortium bombs, Outfit Wars, etc.

    Wasting time with this "X class is OP" whiny nonesense
    • Up x 1
  13. Demigan

    I'm going to ignore the whole infil discussion that popped up here for now:

    Better AA is a must, more prevalent AA as well. AA is currently only pulled when aircraft arrive, then dropped when the aircraft go away (assuming the aircraft dont curbstomp their counter instead). This means there's always an opening before G2A is pulled for free kills (technically because of G2A limitations much of a fight remains open to attack but pilots seem conditioned only to use the most straightforward of attacks, and why not? They dont have to do complicated stuff they can simply pick a fight without G2A!).

    G2A needs:

    - to be useful before aircraft arrive. This can be as simple as being able to engage non-aircraft targets or be things like secondary fire modes that support friendlies/nerf enemies.
    - have a regular skill to power curve. Currently the skill ceiling is below that of almost any weapon and because of that the power is deliberately nerfed. Having more skillful weapons with higher power reward would eliminate most problems from both sides.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: nanites need to destroy nanites.

    - add a variety of grenades, grenade launchers, rocketlaunchers, missile launchers and unconventional weapons like acid/nanite sprayers and more. You can easily make 2 or more variants of each.
    - have these cost nanites. One set costs nanites on use similar to grenades and C4 and another set costs nanites on purchase like MAX's and vehicles.

    The biggest problem I see is that the goals of the game revolve on kills rather than achieving objectives. From directives to cert gain to medals to earning aurax weapons it almost always revolves around kills, and the best way to get kills is to hunt infantry.

    A more objective oriented gameplay would improve matters as individual classes and vehicles can be tailored better to one objective or another. If the goal of the infil is not to ambush people as much as it is to bypass them and finish an objective it becomes less frustrating.

    That said pure rebalancing of some classes is still essential. Infil cloak going from an in-you-face ability to the "get somewhere unseen then attack from there" ability it was supposed to be.

    This is like when we nerfed HA overshields from effectively 850 (I think it was 900 minus 50 activation cost) to the current 450. People might complain about how its fair to have a broken ability or how others can counter it (the HA version ranged from "just kill them before they activate" to "you are supposed to use trameork from the front just attack from the side if you are alone", but ultimately it will improve the game if we do.

    I did some calculations on a bunch of weapons and for weapons of the same category the COF growth per damage point was the same (exception: pre-arsenal Orion and Betel, but that was deserved for some reason). Also higher damage per bullet gives little advantage. Theoretically you can kill someone faster as your final bullet pushes your enemy over the edge a bit sooner, practically that is rarely the case and firing more bullets means you can compensate for misses more easily. Higher damage bullets punishes more for misses.

    The ROF is tied to the FPS, what isnt tied to the FPS as far as I am aware is COF settling. Whenever your next shot isnt being fired due to FPS problems your COF is settling for that time, essentially trading your ROF for accuracy at that point in time. This can explain why this obvious disadvantage at low FPS doesnt impact high ROF weapons as much.
    There is also something else to consider: WHEN does the bullet fire? Lers say your FPS sags to 10FPS while using a 750 RPM weapon. This means that suddenly your maximum ROF is 600, you lost 150 RPM.
    Then you use a 500RPM weapon (GAUSS SAW) and 10FPS. The first shot happens at the first frame, the second shot happens at the third frame rather than the second frame so basically after every single shot you skip a frame and are stuck at a ROF of 199, or a ROF loss of 300 RPM. Ouch. The loss of ROF is twice as high! (That was by accident but a great illustration). Additionally its a higher % of your total shots compared to the high ROF weapon even if the RPM loss had been equal. So a high ROF weapon needs to lose more RPM due to FPS to be as affected as a low ROF weapon.

    For each low FPS or even just regular FPS there is a different amount of ROF loss per weapon, and just because your ROF exceeds the maximum FPS does not mean your weapon is worse off than a low ROF weapon!
  14. Exileant

    :confused: I like the feeling of unlimited grenades so I would not go as far as trading it. It is a lie thanks to that quick overheat, but a fun one.:( Besides, even if the missiles were more effective, decent pilots scramble as soon as they hear a tone. You still would not be able to land enough before they scrambled. o_O I do think because of the glaring faults you mentioned, they should have a much longer lock range and the missiles should last much longer when it comes to aircraft. At the very least increase their speed like the Swarm on A.A.M. Mode.
    • Up x 1
  15. VV4LL3

    Unlimited rounds DO NOT MATTER if they NEVER hit or require an absurd amount of hits... DOES... NOT.. MATTER.

    You can have unlimited of anything,, but will NEVER matter, since they DO... NOT... HIT...

    The range is literally 100m lower than any comparable weapon
    The speed can be outrun by a galaxy at normal speed
    The AI on flight solution collides with everything.
    The range of the drones... RUN OUT... at MAX EFFECTIVE RANGE...

    Literally, the time it takes to lock on, fire a few drones, the aircraft or platform is gone. The drone either is too slow and is easily outran, or it follows the target long enough to self-detonate at 400m.

    The weapon is absolute trash.

    As for boats:
    I know right...because "boats" can fly, and NOTHING else in the game right now needs work? *facepalm* This is also why I stopped paying for membership. Waste of money to pay into development that isn't happening.
  16. JibbaJabba

    What a joke.
  17. JibbaJabba

    So the PS4 player and the 1.5KB Infil main who doesn't play anything else have gotten together to tell us how to play non infiltrator classes correctly.

    Pay attention everyone. They know everything. School is in.
  18. Demigan

    They got that trick from the aircraft pilots.

    Pilot: "You dont know what you are talking about! You dont fly!"

    Other people: "you dont know what you are talking about, you dont use G2A and we do fly".

    Pilot: "I have the experience here and I get to tell you how you fail at G2A! There's plenty if counters to air and you dont know how hard air has it! theres like almost 10 weapons that can damage us!"

    Other people: "theres like... the two dozen other weapon types that kill us and with 10x the user base".

    Pilot: "everyone else is bad and I am good. I matter, L2P newbs, I get attacked by lazy people who dont want to defend themselves. Its on them".

    The Infils are now doing the same from their perspective.
    • Up x 4
  19. Exileant

    :D That BROKE me..... Hahahahaha! Too funny! Yet sadly, o_O I BET even then they would be cried about.It would go something like this:

    "WaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaa....... Nerf Infiltrators NOW!!!!" *POST*

    ":eek: What is Wrong NOW!? They are not allowed to shoot, they are not allowed to stab, they are not allowed to hack. :( They are only able to stare at you and set motion detectors!"

    "Lets break down how Infiltrators are still broken, shall we? Firstly one popped up behind me and spotted me. When I heard her shout I turned around she was 1 inch from my face, violently vibrating her head!!! I was so freaked out I ran out of the room to get a better position and grazed a wall when out of nowhere a L.A. swooped in and killed me. This happened 8 or 9 times back to back, only H.A.s joined in the Farming of me. I could not for the life of me figure out WHY. Turns out Infiltrators are master tattle tails and it had flooded the map with motion detectors! INFILTRATORS SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO REVEAL THE LOCATION OF OTHER PLAYERS!!! It ruins the CORE of the game."

    ":confused: .....What?"

    "Yeah here is why. Right so, even though technically the T.T.K. of an Infiltrator is infinite as it cannot attack, that is not the reality of the situation at all. An Infiltrator after losing its ability to be offensive has become a Hive mind of multiple entities. For every beacon placed, their entire faction at the location can see enemy movement; so that makes an Infiltrators T.T.K. vary between whatever Class finds the enemy as a result of the beacon placed as well as increases that T.T.K. 100% per ally attacking. Since they get Experience Points per kill with the beacon active, they are killing people with zero risk to themselves!!!! Zero RISK KILLING?! And on top of that, when they Decloak and press the fire button, their heads vibrate and their eyes glow! That is TERRIFYING and that is called psychological warfare! Infiltrators are RUINING the game! I cannot go ANYWHERE unseen! As if the KILL CAM WERE NOT BAD ENOUGH!!!! Basically what I am trying to say is, even if the teams are equal, if one side has an Infiltrator and the other does not, that guarantees victory for the side that does! And since infiltrators control the flow of battle it is basically like everyone else is doing their fighting for them, and that is O.P. So NERF THEM NOW!!!!!!"

    "o_O Tell me you are joking...."

    "Nope I am not! I explained my position perfectly well, YOU are crazy to ignore facts."

    :confused::mad: You are INSANE!!!! o_O Nobody would be crazy enough to take this to heart!!!!

    *Post gets 12 thumbs up*

    Warning! Personal attacks will not be tolerated!

    Incoming Patch Notes: Infiltrators will now only be able to vibrate their heads while depressing the fire button. We have removed the glowing eyes as this has caused complaints of nightmares in full grown adults. Motion Detectors that used to REVEAL THE LOCATION OF EVEN CLOAKED INFILTRATORS have now been FURTHER Nerfed to only be able to spot "High Threat" targets in the same way THERMAL VISION was NERFED on turrets and vehicles.... It has no logical explanation on how it would work this way either, sadly.

    High Threat target list thus follows:


    We do hope this has resolved the issues of Infiltrators being Over Powered.

    ;) As far as the Printers go; no, they are not the best ever, but I have to stop just short of calling them Rubbish. Yes they need to be better, but even as bad as they are for planes, I manage to drop a few of them. Perhaps I am just bagging idiots, but so help me, I manage to drop a few. As far as enemy ground vehicles go....... Yeah, everything seems to move away before you get the kill, unless it is a Flash.... :D Still..... I like them because they use HANDS. I like launching Fireballs like I have superpowers. Hahaha!
  20. JibbaJabba

    If someone read that, let me know what it said.
    • Up x 1