Wrel, we need a balance update

I think we need a central thread for Wrel and the team to get an overview about current gameplay issues regarding the balance.


Aircrafts
Both tanks and Infantry across all factions need better AA capabilities, and especially weapons that destroy aircraft on a reliable basis.

There should also be someway to make the Banshee and the Mustang less devastating, they are very hard to counter as it takes only like 2 shoots to kill any AA infantry while a whole T2 magazine can be tanked by them.

Ground Vehicles
When it comes to infantry it would be cool to have better long range abilities on missile launchers, to make them a viable weapon choice compared to C4 and AMRs.

Harassers are very good tank hunters, taking a look at them and their role wouldn't hurt

Infantry
The main issue in infantry fights are infiltrators right now. Their amount in each battle, their cloak and the motion sensors slow down any fight - its not fun to fight against them (for details why, there are a lot of threads about that). Snipers in a game are OK, but even then it gets annoying when they go invisible. We either need working counters, a default flashlight without it being a weapon mod or outright nerfs for the class. They dominate fights and there is no reason to not choose that class for fighting other infantry.

I personally think that the TTK for automatic rifles also is a bit off compared to other guns, as they often get outgunned by shotguns, scout rifles and some pistols when they shouldn't. Taking a look at effective range, bullet velocity and drop might be a good idea. Especially some scout- and sniper rifles can keep up with MGs in CQC situations

Faction balance
The TR trait of fast firing weapons isn't as much of a benefit as the NC damage bonus or the VS accuracy. Faster fire makes the horizontal recoil even worse and the RoF is tied to the client's FPS. It also forces player more than any other faction to use burst fire (VS and NC have it easier with going successfully full auto on a target - tested that). More accuracy for less RoF would bring them on par with VS and NC
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That are things I observed. If you guys have more, feel free to add them.

AA and A2G capabilities of all factions need to be balanced, both TR and NC has proximity-detonation flak AA guns now but VS doesn't have one and suffers from A2G by great margin. Hide and seek style A2G players mostly focus VS because of the lack of a proper AA weapon. They avoid confronting striker/masthead and they focus VS as an easy target. Robot dudes need a similar styled weapon as well.

just gonna add this

https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps2/index.php?threads/i-v-a-balance-and-dbg´s-stingyness-on-customisation.258775/

warning: wall of text
read at risk of your sanity

Disagree, more of the same old anti-infil copypasta stuff..

You know what slows down fights? Maxes.
Specifically, NC Maxes.. Most fights are just a corridor fight with the enemy maxes opposite eachother in a stalemate. Infiltrators don't slow down anything, and 'fun' isn't a factor. Please don't confuse feelings for facts, dying is not fun. But try and keep it a bit objective.

You are correct in this, and that is the point of MAXs and why there are now hard counters to them. However, with MAXs, you are always aware of where they are, and easily able to put agro on them at your leisure. Most MAXs can be outgunned by even an LMG so long as you are outside of 7 feet. They have a perfectly high number of counters.

Infiltrators though currently have no effective counter except maybe AP mines, which aren't practical in high intensity battles. Darklights do not have the range to effectively counter snipers or even SMG users, there only real value being against particularly dimwitted stalker cloakers that lack the sense to move when they see someone enter the room with it.

I have said it once, I will say it a thousand times, give the thermal optics the ability to see infiltrators again and to see through smoke again and the problem will be solved. I will also iterate AGAIN that any infiltrator mains that have a problem with this change should stop pretending to be assault units with SMGs and play close attention to the classes name.

Pretty much, though the hard counter works for Maxes you can somewhat peak. You don't peak NC maxes because the nerf to nanoweave buffed shotguns, and shotguns are an absolutely menace right now.

But in the argument of what slows fights, MAXes slow fights. Infils don't.

Infiltrators have hard counters though, literally the only class that does yet people refuse to use it because it's an inconvenience to them. AP mines, spitfire turrets, barriers, shotguns, darklights. I have an engineer loadout, that can single-handedly delete all infils from a point and keep them off it.

You don't counter snipers with a darklight, you counter snipers with awareness. Most snipers, especially novice ones are INCREDIBLY predictable as to where they're going to be. Don't get caught out with your back exposed to a rock full of snipers. Not to mention, you get close to a sniper, they're dead. I farm snipers by simply dropping on them, and just shotgun blasting away for easy kills.

Shotgun+Darklight vs SMG cloaker, I guarantee you you'll have a better time.

Thermal suggestion, was too OP, and it really is. Otherwise they'd have to implement anti-Heavy shield rounds, or disabling jetpacks of LAs, and even stopping healing from a Medic.

Infiltrators, in the name also means infiltrating in the enemy's backline not just electronics as let's be honest is a very underwhelming part of the infiltrator. The entire game is focused around kill potential. I mean you have Heavies who are supposed to be a tank and taking hits, instead being #1 go-to DPS. A medic can basically be a DPS menace by running around with carapace, AOE heal, and combat surgeon. When was the last time anybody NEEDED to go to a medic, instead of popping a healkit?

DPS is meta regardless of class, not just infil.

I already discussed AP mines, so I wont elaborate on that further. Spitfire turrets do not target cloaked units (at least they dont on console) so this does not change what I said. I fail completely to understand how having a barrier helps stop an infiltrator in any situation other than a narrow hallway, and darklights and shotguns both have the same weakness of needing to be within range to use. If you do manage to reach that range, than congratulations, your an LA with ambushers or successfully ambushed the infiltrator. But in all other circumstances, the infiltrator will kill you five times over before you get in range to use either. Unless of course your using slug rounds, but its unlikely you will reach darklight range before they kill you anyway.

As for thermals being op, by removing that function they effectively took them from op to completely worthless, as they do with most equipment in this game. Meanwhile harassers continue to outgun MBTs on a regular basis. It is clear from that alone the devs aren't the best at figuring out unit roles.

From a gameplay perspective, thermals have been a staple of shooter games literally back to the early 2000s and we're only now supposed to think their OP because they let you see in darkness, smoke, and pick up infiltrators? This is literally what they are designed to do. If the devs have a problem with that, they should give the thermals the types of weakness that actual thermal optics have such as light sensitivity (translated as thermals amplifying the effects of flashbangs by 50%) and difficulties with hot terrain (making them nearly useless in indar during the day). The infiltrators can then use implants such as cold heart, or an armor slot upgrade to decrease how much they show up on thermals compared to background heat sources to compensate.

The truth is that infiltrators are intended to be saboteurs, spotters, and snipers. They are not intended for frontline combat. Yes, I am aware that this seems "Unfun" for infiltrator mains, but this problem wont go away so long as there is a lack of effective counters. If what you use works for you, then great. But the sheer volume of these threads proves that there is indeed a problem that needs solved with this class, and I think that problem is that there is no way to punish those who abuse it for being aggressive with a class that is not intended to be aggressive.

How to get good at the game: Mention the cloak is a broken mechanic then sit back and relax.
An infiltrator main will be along shortly to tell you everything there is to know about how to play.

So crouching or moving around motion sensors doesn't impact the flow of the battle? Having to check every corner with a flashlight to not getting shot out of the blue when they hear the cloaking sound doesn't slow players down?

You can defend infiltrators all you want - they are OBJECTIVLEY broken.

And funny enough THEY are the ones needing to be invisible to be "gud" at the game

LOL, so much this.

It is the *exact* reason why we jump to the weapons tab when looking at someone's character. "OOOH, 1.5 KD, that's above average let's see what weapons they.... Oh. Nevermind"

Do tell who still crouches or moves around motion sensors? Please, I'll wait..

Most people ignore it, or are straight up not aware of it because they have the awareness of a potato.
Most people don't even know you can shoot the damn things.

If you are alone, then yes you're gonna have a bad time. The whole point of an infil is to pick em off one by one.

And you can keep complaining about infiltrators all you want - There's nothing objective about your statements, and you know this.

Dude, I could in all honesty write you a whole essay based on experience in gamedesign about the flaws of that class within the game - but I also know that it would be a waste of time to explain that to you specifically

I could do the exact same thing, in fact I have done so multitudes of times. To try and explain it with good intentions.
But that doesn't take away you're not answering my counter-arguments.

Do tell, who on Planetside in the year 2022 still crouches or moves around motion sensors? Please, enlighten me.
People don't give 2 s**ts about 'stealth' or awareness in planetside, the only thing that exists is what they can see in front of them, and that's why they get murked.

There's nothing wrong with the class, but people try to find LITERALLY anything..

The cloak, the clientside, the knife, the guns, the range, the visibility, the darklights don't work, the why should I use an attachment slot, the EMP, and now the recon darts?

You know damn well, there's nothing objective to be had about this else you would've brought up objective statements in the first place. Instead, all we get is just more of the same #1 rule in Planetside: If it kills you, it's OP and need to be removed from the game.

It's the exact same mantra of a loud minority repeating random grabbed together arguments, with all the same core cause behind it being rule #1 of Planetside.

We get it, dying is not 'fun'. Having to be aware of one's surroundings is hard and requires A LOT of extra thought instead of just mowing down the enemy. But god damn do a lot of Planetside 2 players act entitled when it comes to an FPS game. And that's not just a dig at you, Infiltrators do it just as much with the whole 'dying' thing.

Reading a forum post like: "If I am an Infil, and you're near me drawing aggro whilst I'm cloaked, I'll shoot you to preserve myself." Get out.

People act like dying in Planetside2 is a major deal. Boohoo, you got 15 bullets in the back of your head because your focus was in front during a fight. The infil is likely already dead, you get rezzed by a teammate and you move on.

You don't lose certs, you don't lose guns, or gear, or experience, it literally has 0 negative consequences.

"But my KD, I lose 0.000001 KD!" Nobody cares. Literally no-one. The only people who do care are entitled, insecure and literally have nothing better to do. Because they wouldn't last in any other FPS game where there are actual consequences to dying. Like you want to be mad about dying? Go play Escape from Tarkov, where you lose all your gear. or Arma 3 MilSim, where you'll spend the next half an hour attached to a medic unconscious, Or Valorant/CSGO/whatever game like such where your team is a man down for the whole round.

Again, keep it objective. Being angry at dying to something in the moment is understandable, but look at the state of this Forum or Reddit. Non-stop, the exact same people, the exact same non-arguments subjective opinions.

You said that AP mines aren't as viable, yet if you place them near entrances or top of stairs before the room you're in. I guarantee you'll avoid getting ganked. By the time the high volume of players reaches your building or room, you should already be looking in that direction anyway for a lot more than just an Infil.

Spitfire turrets don't target cloaked units, that's not the point. The moment they get out of stealth, they get targeted which again helps DPS. They can't hurt it until they decloak, so either they deal with you and get shot by you and the turret. Or the turret, which gives you an easy warning.

Most hardlight barriers can be deployed in doorways, they cannot kill that barrier. They will be forced to jump over it, it's a hurdle, it slows them down, but it also makes them REALLY visible. A jumping infil can be seen clear as day. Not only that, from jumping your reticle blooms, especially on an SMG. Thus.. They will be completely disadvantaged.

"and darklights and shotguns both have the same weakness of needing to be within range to use."
And what is the weakness of an SMG infiltrator? SMG damage profile drops off HARD, you have to be close. Their have to get close in order to do damage. The key difference there being that a shotgun can one-tap the infil.

You don't ambush Infils, they are the ambush class. You wait for them, to come to you. However if your defense if higher, with all the things I mentioned previously. You will win. As a Infil, seeing a well dug-in Engi, with all those things? I am not touching that, I'd be at way too much of a disadvantage. If the infil is out of darklight range, the SMG will at most tickle you.

Thermals in games always been hard to balance, because they are really god damn strong. Also in regards to making worthless, yeah. I'll agree there, they are good at that. Case in point: Power knifes.

In theory this would be interesting, however in the same breathe. You are now forcing Infiltrators to get a very HARD-TO-GET ENDGAME implant to counter a very easy and cheap counter because thermals are VERY common. Whilst at the same time people on the receiving end are not willing to even bother switching 1 attachment on their SECONDARY gun, to get a torch and spot infils. (I'm not even gonna get into how these advanced mechanics would not fly well,

Not to mention, and be honest with me. How long do you think it will take for people to just start moaning about the Coldheart implant, or the armor slot upgrade? (I'm not even gonna get into how these advanced mechanics would not fly well with the Dev team. They are not great at adjusting things without just using weapon damage sliders.)

Because that's just treating the symptom of people dying to Infils, they'll continue to die to em even with fancy gadgets to counter em because they refuse to acknowledge the awareness issue. Which means they'll continue to complain, and the cycle just starts over again.

That's not entirely correct. This is in fact an MMOFPS. In MMO terms, a Infiltrator is a DPS. A Light Assault is a DPS. Engineer is a DPS. A Heavy a 'tank'. A Medic well.. A healer.

Difference being that:
An Engineer Is alright against Infantry, and extremely well against vehicles. (hard counter)
A Light assault is good at fighting infantry, and good against light armored vehicles. (soft counter)
An Infiltrator excels at fighting Infantry, and can't do sh*t against vehicles. Like literally nothing.

The Infiltrators entire perk is that it's supposed to kill infantry by flanking, they are made to kill infantry because they literally can't kill anything but infantry, in a combined arms game. With vehicles surrounding bases, air to ground capablilities and troop transport. The entire vehicle side of Planetside 2, might as well not exist for them because they can't do anything against them. (And they shouldn't)

Classes shouldn't have the answer to everything, they should excel at what they are good at.

So, this isn't just 'unfun' it would be literally removing the entire purpose for their cloak and to an extension their purpose in the game. Because there sure as hell isn't an answer for countering Medic Heals, Heavy Overshields, LA jumpjet, the only one somewhat counterable is the Engineer's Anti-infantry loadouts with EMPs. (because again Infils are supposed to do that)

There's an effective counter to infils, people refuse to use it because they feel 'too good' for it. Or that it 'nerfs' them. They're entitled, that just want to be have the answer to everything at their fingertips.

And yeah, it's been working really well for me. I know the weaknesses of an Infil, I can spot them easily without even needing a darklight in the first place. The Darklight just helps when I know he's around here and we're at a stalemate. It forces him to engage me before I find him. And when they do, shotgun in the face and their gone. 900 HP->0

The sheer volume of these annoying copy-pasta threads proves nothing. If there's a room full of people screaming at the top of their lungs that the world is flat, it doesn't mean that it is flat.

What it does prove is that there is indeed a problem, a problem with these people's general attitude towards problem-solving not the class itself. They do NOT want to be use a Darklight (or literally anything else, because they would just use the same excuse). They do not want to use all the methods I mentioned before. They don't want to put in the effort of securing flanks.

It is simply more convenient and low effort for them to just complain and try and get it nerfed.

I had a toxic Heavy main whine in yell chat about infils.. To my surprise the guy literally admitted he just straight up does not want to put in the effort of countering them, he said he didn't want to be good at the game, he just wanted to play, regardless of how low that effort might be.

And frankly, that's a fair response. It's okay to just want to play the game and not put in effort to beat a challenge presented to you. But don't go about yelling the challenge is 'unfair' or 'unfun' when you're unwilling to put in the effort to beat it.

Infiltrators don't abuse the class because they're aggressive, they're made to be aggressive, they are the very point of high-risk vs high-reward or kill or be killed, glass cannon. Saying that 'Infiltrator' by definition of the word shouldn't be aggressive is a non-argument, as infiltrating a building is inherently dangerous and aggressive. Are they supposed to be able to poison you, using cunning to make you do what they want? No, they ambush people. Secret agents assassinate people all the time, so that's really not something to go off of.

So...to sum up your long winded defense of infiltrators. The vast majority of the community thinks there is something wrong with the class, and you think their all wrong because you alone (out of the thousands of people playing this game) are right? Is this what I am getting? Because that is what it sounds like. Here's a hint, flat-earthers cant be compared to video game players in this regard. One is arguing for or against an abject law of reality, the other is the rules of a competitive game that is meant to be fun. You cannot compare science to video game balance. If the vast majority of the community of a video game is complaining about the balance of a specific class of unit or vehicle, it means they aren't having fun and that is a problem.

Now, again, you have yet to add anything that decries my point. Spitfires not targeting cloak IS a major point, because even if you get that warning (which you obviously would get from the decloaking sound the infiltrator makes anyway) the dps on the smgs themselves are typically high enough to kill you before you react anyway. So no, spitfires to not help in this scenario, AP mines are not reliable to deal with infiltrators during large scale battles as they can be (and usually are) tripped by other infantry, random granades (particularly common in the places mines are placed) and other ordinance such as c-4 packs. Any infiltrator that is brainless enough to use a narrow hallway as their hiding spot or engagement point is probably going to get nuked anyway, so the hardlight barrier still remains too situational to count. Yes, SMGs do have significant drop off, but that drop off is still roughly 3-4x the range of a shotgun that isn't using slugs, and therefore it still fails to act as an effective counter.

And no, infiltrators are not designed to be DPS. If they were, they would be called "Assassins". Here is the literal definition of an "Infiltrator" according to the Cambridge dictionary: "A person who secretly becomes part of a group in order to get information or influence the way the group thinks or behaves". So no, infiltrators by name and descriptions are scouts and saboteurs, not dps. This isn't world of Warcraft, there are no raid bosses that require "DPS" characters. This is a war game, and each character has a clear and defined role.

And finally, as for the thermals, this is literally the exact situation that other people are dealing with now. So which is worse? Having to force the entire community to work for hard to get equipment to deal with a single (standard and common) class. Or forcing each infiltrator to work to improve their individual class to counter the tools the community has available...its not rocket science. So yea, people are going to complain, and they are going to demand the class have counters made, and they have a right to do so. Don't think you cant dismiss them purely because you have perfected hunting infiltrators for yourself, not everyone should have to be an expert tactician to deal with a single class that requires little to no effort to be effective with.

Oh, and yes every class has an easy counter.
Heavy overshield: EMP granade
Medic tool: Literally any weapon because they cant fight while using it.
Engineer: EMP granade (again)
Light assault: Flashbangs or concussion granades
PS: these are just the grenades that can counter those classes, and most of those grenades can be used by infiltrators.

I do not mind infiltrators that much in general its just that a huge portion of infiltrator players dont have a original bone in their body combined with the cloak basically being a On Demand Peekers Advantage that they can use.

Pretty much all these infiltrators use a meta CQC bolter, SMG or Commie/Boss as their weapons of choice and they all have in common that they are super high DPS because it synergizes with the cloak ofc. Bolters are so absurd that the victim might see the death screen as they hear the decloak sound because this is a multiplayer game with latency and its clientside hit detection so infiltrator decloaks and shoots = their bullet hits the target before/just as they decloak on other players screen.

The problem is that infiltrators would need a complete rework to be viable rather than just nerfing them because it does not really matter too much what nerfs we pile on them, the core issue is with the game itself so as long as infiltrators have a cloak that is more or less impossible to counter unless you can SEE them and have access to weapons with a low TTK the problem will remain but if we nerf everything then there is no point to playing as infiltrator and hence the need for a complete rework to gear them more towards the actual infiltration and sabotage part OR gear them towards combat but then either some really heavy limitations on the cloak would be needed(like multiple full seconds before they can fire after decloaking with perhaps the tweak that there is no decloak sound, only when they cloak) or its removal entirely.

Either way the class needs some major surgery to 'fix' no matter which way it would go, even only nerfing the cloak with a long delay would be a massive change to how the class would have to be played and would probably need some buffs in other areas and/or new tools to be remotely workable like that.

The infiltrator is unbalanced because of how the cloak is implemented. I think you don't play the game as other classes enough to understand what the imbalances are. So when confronted with this you turn to alternate explanations such as:

The reason I'm successful as an infiltrator is because of my skill, not an imbalance.
The contest was fair and that player is just mad about dying.
That player just doesn't know how to play or they don't understand the game.
Other things are imbalanced so this is equivalent.

All of these statements are false. Folks have tried (often poortly) to explain it to you but you but until you truly get out there and experience it I don't think you're going to understand.

Personally, it took me about 3000 hours to figure out the class is broken. I spent maybe another 2000 hours just brushing off my own opinion as that last alternative, "other things are imbalanced so this is equivalent". But I've gotten past that and have known for at least the last 3000 more hours that the class is utterly broken and has been probably the worst festering game imbalance for a decade.

If you're doing math that adds up to a scary amount of time. Am I some fantastic player (nah) or do I suck (also nah)? Doesn't matter. I've played enough and seen enough that I understand every tiny spot in this game where there is an imbalance that can be arbitraged. And out of sportsmanship I generally (not always) choose to avoid using them.

I don't expect you to get it. You've played in such a way that it's not possible for you to. But do understand just like everything else in life, that you might not understand something as well as you think you do.

Also recognize that an "attack" on the infiltrator is not an attack on you as a person. We're all just gamers here playing a game.

The game we're playing like many others could use some balance fixes. Wish you could see that.

Play smarter and fight better to win.

If you've played so long can you explain why the meta squad loadouts are not full of infiltraitors? The people playing to win, as much as you can in this game, would love to hear this forbidden knowledge you seem to posses.

It isn't invisibility:
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3
Example 4
Example 5
Example 6
Example 7

This kind of thing?:

Is not intended game design. This is a software concern, not a balance consideration. Coincidentally, this clip happens to come from pre-fix Connery when everyone was running around with triple-digit latency.

With a stable server and decent internet it looks like this:

or this:

Both fully decloaked before shooting. Both perfectly fair deaths.

I feel like some people are under the impression that an infiltrator can casually stroll out into the open, line up a shot, decloak and kill you without ever being detected or threatened. Try that against any decent players and see how well that works out for you.

There should probably be some sort of normalization of the cloak visibility across graphical settings, though. The difference in target recognition between 'potato.ini' and '3080 go Brrrrr' is clearly not insignificant.
One suggestion I have made multiple times is to split Hunter into 2 separate abilities, one with a longer decloak timer for use in flanking with CQB weapons, and one that simply becomes drastically more visible at closer ranges but otherwise stays as is for use as a more long-ranged option.