Would you remove shotguns from NC max?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Bape, Aug 22, 2014.

  1. Hegeteus

  2. Colt556

    How would you have me prove myself? Take a video of me running around a corner, start getting shot, and somehow retreat/kill the max in the .3 seconds it takes for him to kill me? Cuz I'm pretty sure if I took a video of me failing to do that people would just go "you didn't try" or something. However you CAN take a video of you doing something in that .3 seconds because we can see the MAX was shooting, the max was hitting you, and that you did react. So we can verify that you did try and didn't rig it. So if you have some idea on how I can prove that players can't react in .3 seconds and save themselves, I'm all ears.

    Again, you say that in PS2 half a second can mean the difference between life and death when facing a max, then prove it.

    I'm not hung up on "paper TTK", I'm hung up on reality. In real, practical gameplay a .3 to .5 second difference doesn't matter. A TR and VS max is equally as deadly at close range as an NC max is. That's the fact of the matter, and unless someone can provide evidence that they actually can do something in that time to save themselves I'll keep saying that. You INSIST that .5 seconds is a huge amount of time, then prove it.

    Also, even if you flip on your overshield that only adds like .1 or .2 seconds to TTK. It takes like 2 seconds to switch to your rocket and be able to fire. I'm sorry but .7 seconds isn't even long enough to pull out a rocket. And at the ranges we're talking jumping wont matter, they'll have near perfect accuracy (we're talking shotgun insta-gib range after all). So yeah, prove to me that the miniscule difference in TTK is enough for someone to turn the tide of battle. Because I'm still not seeing it.

    In practical terms they are equal because the same effect is achieved with all three maxes, the enemy dies before they can do anything. That's all that matters.

    WHILE being shot? With bullets actually hitting you? If so, video it and prove it. Cuz I don't believe it's even physically possible for the character to run around a corner, turn around, and run back in .3 seconds even if you have instant reaction time. Provide a video and that'll be the end of this argument.
  3. Liberty

    The equip time for RL's is ~1.0 seconds. A very easy way to test this is to start with an empty launcher and have your pistol equipped. Swap to the launcher and when it reloaded, stop and subtract the 5.2 second reload from it. I'm sure it is on a spread sheet somewhere, but I don't feel like digging it up offhand.

    The real question is, do you know the difference between sheet TTK and practical TTK because you seem like you really don't know what you are talking about.

    Which is kind of sad. :(

    A sheet TTK of 0.52 makes the following assumptions - no nano weave, no overshield activation, and 100% body shot accuracy at less than 10 M.

    In the situation we are talking about : Distance less than 10 M vs. a TR MAX where the MAX has initiative the "real" (not paper) TTK will give you enough time to react. NC MAXes get an overkill of around 250 to 500 damage with their first click which translates to more potential 1 shot situations where no reaction is possible.
  4. Colt556

    Actually swapping from your main gun to a rocket launcher and firing it is closer to two or more seconds. I specifically tested it when it was mentioned here. It is factually impossible to swap to your rocket and fire in .5 seconds. The game literally wont allow it.

    Also, .5 TTK is with body shots, not head shots. If they land head shots it's actually significantly faster. Again you can test this yourself. Go into the VR and shoot the targets in the chest at close range, they die in half a second or less. If you hit them in the head then you're getting dangerously close to the NC's 0 second TTK.

    Also, if you're at 10 meters even an NC max can't insta-kill you as their spread means many of their pellets miss, so we're talking a range of less than 5 meters where an NC max can insta-kill you with a single shot. At that range it's almost impossible for a TR or VS max to miss.

    All in all, you insist that in reality it's different, but it's not. In reality, in actual normal gameplay, a TR and VS max performs equally as well as an NC max in close range. Actually they perform BETTER because not only do they have the same TTK but they have significantly more ammo meaning they can clear an entire room without reloading, an NC max can't.

    Edit: And again, if you INSIST that I'm wrong, prove it. Video yourself or get someone else to video themselves managing to retreat or kill a max in half a second or less.
  5. AdmiralArcher

    ok.....now you are making me doubt that you actually go against MAX units alot.....most people can run into a room with a TR or VS max and run out alive because the enemy players take time to realize that you are in the room, Target aquisition is also a metric that is not mentioned, it takes a given amount of time for a player to realize that the player is in the room.

    what the other guys said IS true, there are alot of videos out there that have MAX and Anti MAX gameplay in them.....just go look at those vides
  6. Colt556

    You are completely missing the point. Like, the point is so high over your head it's entered a stable orbit.

    Players can run into a room and get out alive because the enemy doesn't notice them quickly enough, however that ALSO applies to the NC max. If you're alive because the enemy hasn't shot you, well then you'd still be alive if fighting an NC max because it, as well, has not yet shot you.

    The point here is that once you start getting hit, the TTK for all three maxes is essentially the same. If you're in a situation where an NC max would insta-kill you then you're also in a situation where a TR or VS max would kill you just as quickly. We're not discussing the reaction speed of the max, we're discussing how quickly their weapons can kill you once you start taking fire, and once you start taking fire the time until you die is virtually the same for all three maxes.
  7. [NNG]WillTerry

    I dont know, I have to disagree. The NC max is a bit overpowered with those hacksaws. If you turn a corner close up, they will instantly kill you.
  8. minhalexus

    If they turn the corner close up, they'll instantly kill you.

    If you turn up a corner, they won't instantly kill you, unless they're expecting you.
    If they're expecting you, you should have known better than to turn a corner where they are expecting you. And no one is forcing you to turn the same corner. (these sorts of things are common sense in Planetside 2)

    I've actually escaped corners where NC maxes are not expecting me. Cuz if they're not expecting you, they won't be standing 5m away from the corner I turn, also they won't be as alert, and Hacksaws can not instakill outside 5m.
  9. AdmiralArcher

    you have to take everything into account

    including the accuracy of TR and VS weapons, not ALL of the rounds that are fired will hit in that in TTK, it only takes 1 click from an NC MAX to kill an infantry unit, but the TR and VS MAX units have to sustain their fire upon the enemy for it to be effective.

    the TTK that you are talking about doesnt exist, the TTK for an NC MAX is 0 or very close to 0

    you cannot justify replacing the NC MAX units weapons based against theoretical TTK, especially when you are talking about a MAX unit with a theoretical TTK of 0

    i know from exprirence that, while the TR MAX might have rapid rates of fire, they are not that great in CQC due to their accuracy and their damage per bullet. the TTK on a TR MAX in practice is much higher than .3 seconds or whatever you are claiming it is
  10. AdmiralArcher

    i think the point is that IF they see you, i have turned many corners myself (this happens when my sound is muted normally) only to run into a wall of lead from an NC MAX unit. if you suprise each other, chances are you will loose, because you took that corner wider than normal.

    in the end it boils down to player reaction time and target aquisition, the NC MAX isnt that OP in general because it fulfills what its meant to do and it does have a significant disadvantage in range. unfortunatly, the role it fills happens to be where most of the fighting in the game takes place. but like all MAX units, there is always a way to kill them
  11. Colt556

    At the ranges where a single shot from an NC max will kill you TR and VS will have nearly 100% accuracy. Basically, if a player is capable of one-hit killing someone with a scatmax, they could kill someone just as quickly with the other two as well.

    I know from experience that if I'm in a situation where a scatmax can insta-kill me, a TR and VS max can also insta-kill me as in both situations I simply can't react fast enough. You're trying to say that the TR and VS take significantly longer to kill close quarters but that's because you're conjuring up rigged scenarios like the NC max having perfect accuracy while the TR and VS suffer from parkinsons. At a range of 5 meters or less a TR and VS will be able to land their shots just as easily as an NC max could. If they land their shots the TTK between all three is virtually identical. If you insist I'm wrong then prove it, get a video. Because I know from first hand experience that a TR max can kill me so quickly I can't even react to it.
  12. AdmiralArcher

    ok lets get some numbers in this game we are playing here

    TR mutilator 400 RPM, 143 before 10 meters

    NC Grinder 180 RPM, 130x6 (780) before 8 meters

    VS Cosmos 337 RPM, 167 before 10 meters

    TR: 6.6 rounds a second

    NC: grinder is a semi automatic, thus it can be measured as 3 rounds per second if one were to fire as fast as possible. (im not sure 3 RPS is actually possible in game)

    VS: 5.61 rounds per second

    TR: 1 second burst = 952.38

    NC 1 second burst = 2340 damage

    VS 1 second burst = 937.98 damage

    now.....think about what happens if the TR or the VS happen to miss 1 bullet?

    what about the NC?

    neither TR nor VS can kill in 1 second (these are body shots) only the NC can "theoretically" kill in 1 second.

    but this also depends if you are talking about a dual grinder/mutilator/cosmos MAX unit or not. because you simply have to multiply those numbers by 2

    TR: 1904

    VS: 1874

    NC: 4680

    at this point, in 1 second, the VS and TR (if all of the rounds they fire WITHIN that 1 second actually hit the target 7 rounds for TR, 6 rounds for VS) could kill in one second or less....but that almost never happens due to the way the COF works on the TR mutilator and the VS cosmos

    the NC MAX unit could miss 4 rounds and still kill the enemy

    im just saying..... .5 seconds is a big deal....
  13. Colt556

    Well all your numbers basically proved what was already said, that all maxes have the same TTK, they all kill in half a second or less with body shots, mix in even a single head shot and it goes even faster. So we go right back to you insisting that half a second is a big deal and me asking for you to prove it.

    What could you POSSIBLY do in half a second? It's impossible to whip out any other weapon so beyond the very few situations where you're running around with your rocket out you wont do a single thing. It's impossible to turn around and get back into cover in that amount of time, your guy literally can't move that fast no matter how fast your reaction speed is. So what, exactly, can be done in less than half a second that is such a big deal?

    Prove to me that it matters, because the whole reason we're arguing this is because some people still stupidly think that NC maxes have an advantage in close range and that justifies their handicap at long range. Less than half a second isn't a big enough difference to justify an NC max being useless beyond 15 meters.
  14. AdmiralArcher

    you still dont get it do you?

    those are hypothetical numbers, the TTK is much higher due to inaccuracy

    this is going no where......and i have better things to be doing
  15. Colt556

    And you don't get it, at those ranges inaccuracy is effectively a non-issue. And what little accuracy problem they face is shared by all three sides since at that range the spread on a shotgun doesn't compensate for poor accuracy as it hasn't had time to spread properly. We aint talking engagements at 30 meters, or 15, or even 10, we're talking about fights at less than 5 meters and at that range accuracy effects all three MAXes equally.

    You keep insisting this is truth, that NC maxes are significantly better at close range, so prove it, get a video.
  16. Camycamera

    yeah we should! in fact while we are at it, we should make all the factions all the same! /s

    god damn people wanting to make all the factions the same..... -_-
    • Up x 1
  17. Atis

    Somehow, its different for me. When I hear MAX and rush to doorway, plant C4 and max step in before I can get to cover, with TR/VS I usually manage to detonate. With NC I'm dead the moment I see MAX. No theorycrafting, just my personal experience. I dont think that my reflexes are different with different factions and I have same network latency when I play VS and NC.
    • Up x 1
  18. Copasetic

    That's because it is different. Don't mind Colt, he's too caught up in his VR tests against static dummies to see the forest for the trees.
    • Up x 1
  19. Silus

    Honestly I'd be content if they turned the Falcons into HE arm cannons instead of single-shot AP cannons. Slow fire, single shot, decent travel distance, but each with a blast radius of, say, a grenade and the stopping power of a rocket vs infantry and light armor.
  20. Goretzu

    Be interesting to see the stats proving that, everything else tends shows NC AI MAX die more, but also kill more (likely because of range - both lack of and that they tend to be easier to C4 being closer) and generally are pulled much less (which tends to support the kill more idea, because they are only pulled for Biolab door camping comparratively).