Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by netBattler, Mar 18, 2023.
I literally don't know why. Its damage profile was like the only good thing about it.
Because it was an NC weapon. And the NC is OP.
Just look at the link below to before and after the change. See the top weapons and who’s faction they belong to? Obviously the NC needed to be taken down a peg or two! That kind of difference can’t be tolerated! Down with NC so that the RIGHT people can be on top!
Hmmm, idk i think the god saw is still very strong with 143 being the minimum. HVA still allows the 3 shot headshot up to a great range. However when i think about the 143/750 LMG i genuinely think they are better up to 250 dmg Headshot range. I'm torn because i still think the saw is very strong but i can see why you would want the 167 min dmg since it's not as good as the meta cqc lmg (in their 250 HS dmg range) . I think if wrel buffed the minimum to 150 I'd be happier and it'll be more useful for counter sniping.
Instead of looking at the stats on paper and theorizing I’m a fan of looking at how the weapon actually performs. You can better judge it if you see a combination of all skill levels use a weapon in all the varying scenario’s of population and engagements. Its almost impossible to use paper stats to determine if a weapon is good or not. Does a 3 headshot kill mean its good? Does it weigh up against a lower punishment for misses, a faster reload, bigger magazines? And how do disadvatanges stack up like horizontal recoil, more punishment for misses, bigger starting COF?
And if you do look at it the worst faction for most LMG’s is TR. on paper they have low punishment for misses and deep magazines (on average). But stating paper advantages doesn’t matter. The stats show many TR LMG’s are underperforming to their NC and VS counterparts. The most likely culprit being horizontal recoil which is on average the strongest on TR while also being the most randomized and hardest to compensate for.
Live stats take everything into account, including stuff like “does the weapon sound and feel nice to use” which is otherwise unquantifiable. They also take stats from all skill levels into account. They are always better than theorizing paper stats.
Tr has the best lmg in the game tho. The MSW R Which is a better orion and with comp+grip has Assault rifle accuracy. They also have the watchman. The cav does have heavy recoil so for new players that don't know to buy the mswr they'll think tr has the most kick. Tr have the best assault rifles hands down and the carbines are excellent aswell. Easy recoil on both sets .
A better Orion… with worse performance?
It has many small advantages over the Orion but it also has a large min/max angle that adds a lot more random. Can you weigh those advantages and disadvantages properly to get to the right conclusion?
The actual performance shows the Orion being hard to track but on average scoring high. The MSWR is consistent but performs less well than the Anchor or Betelgeuse.
Now the TR does have a few strong weapons, but the disadvantage of that horizontal recoil for most weapons is a big flaw. We should try and make every equivalent weapon to perform similar to its counterparts. We shouldn’t say “hey they have some good weapons so screw the rest of their arsenal”.
Thank you for sharing this resource. What does this chart show?
It didn't need nerfed, nor did the nerf really do anything.
It doesn't triple dink at 150meters any more but nobody was realistically doing that anyway. The bodyshot punch is still substantial and it's still king of range. Up close the 200 damage model is unchanged.
Betel didn't need nerfed either.
So to answer your question why? Utterly no idea. It's not a gun that the masses were whining about like the betel.
And it's not the most powerful directive LMG either. That's the Butcher.
so yeah, no idea.
You are thinking of the god saw, a slightly weaker variant with the option for antiarmor.
Worse performance in the kpu chart you provided ? It seems like the mswr is a winner here too. Mswr only has recoil to the right btw and the orion can go both left and right. This makes the mswr easier to compensate for
It shows the KPU, the Kills Per Unique that were scored that day. A Unique is a single user who got one or more kills with it on that day. It gives you the beginnings of an idea what is happening, but realistically you need to compare it to other stats too. Above you can alter it to things like uniques (amount of unique users) and other such stats.
I see I made a mistake, the SVA-GG was made the exact same orange as the Orion, and the SVG is the erratic one while the Orion is far more stable.
The Orion is a starter weapon and will always have a much lower KPU as similar weapons on other factions, but it is a solid starter weapon. The MSWR is a good weapon no doubt about it, it is based on the best weapon model in the game so it is on the high end, but not the best. Considering the Betel blowing the MSWR out of the water on every front despite being almost a carbon copy of the Orion (and in fact being a worse Orion when it couldn’t pick attachments) it is hard to claim the MSWR being far superior to the Orion.
The MSWR does have horizontal recoil to one side, but it remains a higher random than the 0 degree / 0 degree Orion which has left/right bias. Also it doesn’t take away from my claim that the TR on average has worse weapons due to its horizontal recoil despite the advantages they also have.
We should strive to make every weapon of every faction useful. Curb the excesses that go too high or too low.
The betel blows it out the water because the verteran players (that have 5k+ lmg kills) have it and the mswr is very cheap on cert cost so new player can access it. betel isn't much different Than orion. If a new player started with the betel they'll perform the same as if they had the default.
The same could be said of any of the auraxium weapons. Yet the Betel is the one that far outperforms the two other aurax LMG’s. Even compared to the weapon they are based on the Betel shines.
Well yes, becuase the experienced players on NC and TR have other options like the Anchor, Gauss SAW, MSW-R & Watchman. The vs have no other meta LMG than the Orion and the juice, so all the "good" players end up in one of two camps rather than more spread out like NC/TR.
That is actually easily checked since we have an “average BR” function on voidwell. It looks like the average difference between the Betel and Godsaw is about 1BR (with sometimes the Godsaw surpassing it) and the Butcher about 4 behind but still sometimes surpassing it. So unless you think that the players using the Betel are somehow superskilled with just 1BR difference and even when they are surpassed are still superior we know the Betel is superior. Vastly superior even since its KPU goes from 1.5 times more than the next best thing to a whopping 3+ times more. And its userbase is on average about 10% (some 20 to 30 players) difference to the Godsaw?
The Betel is so abnormally superior but there’s no evidence that this is from user skill.
Also a quick look shows the SVA-88, Pulsar, Ursa and Maw not being slouches when it comes to KPU. Often surpassing weapons like the Watchman and Gauss SAW specifically which you promoted as being so good but also weapons like the Rhino, TMG and Bull.
The whole self-victimization of VS is a meme that is taken far too seriously.
This. The NC vets choose the anchor commonly because it kills faster than the saw with chain headshots. The MSWR is the best TR lmg hands down. So the best of the best VS players only use the betel.. Not to mention that alot people unlocked back in the day because the 2013-4 orion/juice was the best automatic gun in this game due to .75 ads with 125 min damage at 750rpm
Well if we filter for the Q4 (highest percentile players, in other words players with the highest experience) then the Anchor IS one of the best if not best NC weapons, but it still has between 1.33 to 3 times less kills per user than the Betel. And again that is based on the best users with the Betel.
So the idea doesn’t fly. Just because there are other options for other factions does not mean that the VS is suddenly super skilled with the “one option” they have.
Also as pointed out before the “bad options” on the VS aren’t bad. They on fact seem pretty average or above average. Seems like you have plenty of options, but there’s just a few options that are simply better than that.
Also here’s a challenge for you: check the performance of the Betel/Orion prior and after the 0.75 ADS change. You might be surprised that the difference is neglegible, because the 0.75 ADS was never what made those weapons good. It was the type of range they were part of which to this day is the strongest LMG type available. Which is why its no coincidence that this weapon type just so happens to be the best on all 3 factions even after the 0.75ADS removal.
Wrel held a competition called Outfit Wars
The best players of each faction decided to cheese it by forming temporary outfits on NC.
Then the best players with their temporary outfits beat the average players as expected.
(Also VS's magical "Just Better Players" were all apparently missing.)
So obviously Wrel used his incredible brain and Gauss Saw was nerfed on live, it makes perfect sense.
as a reward for the best players across all factions winning a 1v1 outfit competition
A high skill weapon with average live server performance was nerfed.
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