Why the heck do weapons have CoF while AIMING?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by HAXTIME, May 12, 2015.

  1. HAXTIME

    This phenomenon is less noticeable on TR, where I just pull out a minigun from my **** and mow down 6 people with a magazine.

    But that aside, what reason does it serve that bullets do not go to where I am aiming my red dot at? I mean, if I fire more than 8-9 bullets from an LMG, subsequent shots aren't even near to where I'm aiming.

    This can be overcome with firing in burst of 6-8, but I think this is just a global nerf to all infantry weapons in the game.
  2. Eternaloptimist

    I guess recoil still happens even when you are aiming but that really is a guess. I know irl why bullets spread (it's because the auto or semi auto chambering of the next round makes the gun jerk very slightly while the previous bullet is still traveling down the barrel - and hence why a lot of real snipers prefer bolt actions, where this doesn't happen). I don't know why the game mechanic works the way it does though.
  3. ohmikkie

    It is trying to simulate what happens when aiming in real life. Just because the dot is on the mark does not always mean the line of sight is true I guess.
    • Up x 2
  4. FateJH

    That's exactly why it is there. Most weapons in this game are (fully-)automatic, but different people handle the same weapons differently, and deal with the same recoil in different ways. The ADS cone of fire ensures that someone who has perfect recoil control still has to stop firing at some point to maintain accuracy and can't just keep spraying with perfect accuracy without need to stop firing until reload.
    It's actually a bit of a buff to the under-represented semi-automatic weapons at the range at which semi-automatics should be good. Additionally, if it really affects all Infantry weapons, you really can't consider it a nerf because there's nothing to compare it against.

    The MCG and the Vulcans get odd cones of fire and controlled bloom because they were intentioanlly designed to be fired for extended periods for best performance, for durations where normal bloom patterns would make the weapons completely inaccurate.
  5. repairtool6

    Because either :

    Stable aim-point but expanding COF

    ...or

    Bouncy aim-point but stable COF

    Trust me you do not want option 1. You think you do, but you dont.
    • Up x 1
  6. hostilechild

    The COF is just gets ridiculously large way to fast. Like the barrel is melting and swinging around.

    I would prefer the bullet go where the dot is and "recoil" be more random, say vertical plus a variant based on direction of movement or none. Wouldn't mind if there was a 1" random COF, bullets do to quality of manufacturing are not perfect the further out the range, would be even sweeter if they added wind and wind modifiers!!

    Then there is the issue:
    As it is lately a lot of players seem to have almost 0 cof anyway. Just last night a guy is shooting an LMG full auto from well over 100m. The pattern on the wall was smaller than a basketball. strafe out and back then watch the tight pattern form. See people hipfiring at 40m, same thing, almost 0 cof pattern on the wall, ground etc. super small. Had 2 vs HA with orions shooting at me at around 80-100m yesterday, one his bullets where spraying all over and he was standing still, the other strafing, didn't miss a shot looked like a dam lancer beam hitting me(br97 hive) so much for his cof.

    Try this **** in VR and you will see, the cof becomes large fast even when crouched stationary, let alone strafing like everyone does in a fight, strafe in VR doing it and you get a huge cof pattern quickly.

    You can somewhat compensate recoil with a mouse but COF you can't compensate. (except bursting and it does not reset instantly)
    The loner you fire, the more time to reset (although its still pretty fast). Why most recommend 6-8 shots, let off, then refire


    COF just needs changed, devs can figure out a better way i am sure. Current is just ******** and even seems to bug out at times and instantly go to max cof.
    • Up x 1
  7. HAXTIME

    I'd consider this to be a problem. You can't really overcome something here with skill, but only by a significant penalty (burst-firing with medium-long delays).


    The guns' movement while firing does not nearly imply this outrageous level on inaccuracy. I could bring up a weapon recoil pattern that would match this type of ADS CoF, and that would be the L86 LSW from Modern Warfare 3:



    Look how the gun in the linked video is shaking "by itself on the screen", and how it's not just the screen that is being pushed by the shots. This issue always hindered me a bit, but only now did I stand up and ask about it.
  8. DramaticExit

    That depends on how you wish to define a nerf. To nerf something, one has to take an action to make it worse. These guns are like that by design. Instead, I would rather call it a deliberate flaw in the design of weapons, or a deliberate inbuilt weakness, rather than a nerf.

    However, it is there for a reason. It serves as a way of making it so people have to lay off the trigger once in a while. Without it, you would find that larger mag weapons with good aim players become even more dominant than they already are. People would be able to just hold down mouse 1 until it goes click, firing 100 rounds with perfect lazer-like accuracy. Not a good idea, methinks.
  9. ExarRazor

    anyone remember back in the days of doom and stuff, when guns actually shot where you were aiming them?

    none of this CoF and recoil nonsense.

    I don't care if its supposed to simulate reality. if I wanted realistic shooting mechanics I'd go play arma, or go to my local firing range
  10. Jawarisin


    You seemed to be confused. It's actually option 1 currently in the game... that's how it is RIGHT NOW.
    • Up x 1
  11. FieldMarshall

  12. repairtool6

    @J ha ha, your right. Sorry for confusion. Ofc meant #2
  13. Kristan

    By the look on that video it looks like this gun has no recoil whatsoever. Like it's not LMG at all and soldier is a robot or has exoskeleton support.
  14. Shadowomega

    The whole reason this game has both Recoil and CoF while ADS is skill compensation in favor of new players. If you played Battlefield 3 that game had only recoil and no CoF, where as Battlefield 4 had both. In BF3 a skill person a CQB/CQC weapon like the AEK-971 and use it to the same effectiveness as a medium to long range assault rifle like the L85. Now in BF4 and just like PS2 that spread forces the skilled players to burst to get that same effective range instead of just going full auto and having very refined recoil control, thus reducing TTK at range on weapon ment for CQC.

    I hope this explains it for you.
    • Up x 1
  15. Taemien


    To answer your question is to give a short history lesson.

    In the first FPSs (Quake, Doom, Goldeneye 64) They did not have recoil mechanics. Either they didn't think to put them in, or just didn't have the resources to code them in (hardware limits). They used CoF to simulate recoil. It was NOT to simulate RL CoF.

    Now fast forward to 2015. Do we need CoF while ADS? No we don't. It can safely be removed while recoil is increased to keep weapons balanced.

    Some of you mentioned cone of fire in RL. That the actions of the bolts and loading mechanisms cause COF. They do... but they cause more recoil than not. In actuality the user causes more jerk to the left or right when pulling the trigger than the bolt does (as opposed to squeezing the trigger.

    But the CoF only is noticeable at ranges beyond 300m. This is why soldiers and marines can put dime sized shotgroups on targets out to that range. I personally can put a 10 round burst at 300-400m with a LMG (M249SAW) into a human sized target. I can't quite do the same in PS2 where the firing rates are actually slower (should be more controllable).

    Instead this is what we have:

    [IMG]

    That's a 10th or 11th round (can't remember which) fired that goes wide. This distance is within 10m. A measely 10m and the COF is spreading wide. That sort of COF IRL would happen at distances of about 300-500m. Now.. recoil IRL would have caused the round to be about a meter above the target, but as you can see in the picture.. the round is actually... LOWER than where the sight is pointing. This indicates a half meter random spread in a 360 degree radius around the aiming point.

    What should actually be happening here is the aiming point should be kicking up (and to the right depending on the weapon) thus the firer can decide whether or not to try to compensate or let off by judging where the next shot is going. And if the recoil isn't so bad, compensate for it and still land a shot, especially if they know the weapon well.

    Players like to claim that CoF helps newbies deal with vets by adding RNG (Random Number Generator, aka a digital dice roll) to randomize where shots partially go. This has the opposite effect. The new player cannot judge where his shots are going to go and will just not understand why their shots are going in random patterns.

    But its even more nefarious then that. Without a video (to which that sceenshot was taken), showing where the shots are going, its hard to tell what is even going on. I'll admit, I didn't know CoF had that impact till I watched the video and then I watched for it when firing different weapons in the VR. Its pretty heinous. And most importantly counter intuitive.

    Many of you haven't served in the military or some police function that used assault rifles (and definitely not automatic weapons). But I can tell you this. At a range of 300m with proper sight picture, breath control, and squeezing the trigger ALL shots will go where you aim them.

    At shorter ranges such as the engagement ranges we normally see, you don't even need to close one eye to hit the target. You really only need to put that reflex sight on target and squeeze the trigger and you'll hit what you're aiming at. Sure weapons kick, jerk, pop up when firing, but you can SEE that when firing and can compensate by pulling the weapon down or let off if you need to.

    With CoF as it is, you CANNOT see where the next round is going to go and cannot compensate for it. You have to just judge timing of the weapon through trial and error. For us vets who have slugged though doing that. Congrats.. you stuck it out. But how many newbies didn't stick it out, resigning to the fact that they just can't get better simply because they have no idea what's going on? The most common complaint I've heard is, "I just want my shots to go where I'm aiming." And how can you tell them they are wrong?

    Afterall they did come here to play a shooter. Not roll dice.
    • Up x 7
  16. Liberty

    What you are describing is bloom more than CoF.

    The ADS CoF of weapons for the most part is dead on or at least to the point where aiming for the head at upwards of 75M with full auto weapons will always result in a first shot head shot.

    Bloom is added to simulate "real weapon recoil" because in game, we lack the responsiveness to the kinetic force each shot pushes back into the shooter and simply drag our mouse down to compensate. It is something there to add intricacy to gunplay rather than a point and click interface.
    • Up x 1
  17. Skooma Lord

    With the current low velocity of bullets in the game I would love for them to remove or reduce the Aiming Cone of Fire by a lot. If they want to make weapons more inaccurate, just give them more recoil. The current system is not skill based, but luck based in my opinion. Maybe they should make the Cone of Fire increase when moving, but not when you are standing still. I think if they removed it Long Range battles would be more enjoyable. To add: You would think that a game like call of duty would have something like this because everything is so compact and fast, not a game with massive battles and large areas which Planet-Side 2 is supposed to have.
    • Up x 1
  18. Dowlphin

    Feeling-wise, I think everything should be managed through recoil. If someone manages autofire recoil (which is at least to some degree unpredictable) well enough, I'd say that's an achievement to be worth a reward of not being counteracted further.
    Also, I could only explain bloom as the gunner's eyes moving away from straight view through the ironsights, because AFAIK bullets don't just start not exiting the muzzle straight during autofire.
    While I'm not generally opposed to added difficulties, it should be possible to overcome them with skill. ... Then again... this is a strategic game, not a pure FPS, so I don't really take issue with such details. If I miss too often, I will look for a better shooting position or use a different weapon/class.


    If I wanted unrealistic shooting mechanics, I'd play Doom.
  19. DashRendar

    [IMG]
    • Up x 1
  20. CapEnTrade

    TTK especially at range would be much more of an issue.
    Without ADS CoF you'd be dead faster than a CoD.

    Imagine a solid player with a GOD SAW or something like that, they would DESTROY ANYONE so long as they kept a distance.
    • Up x 1

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