why so much imbalance of power between NC and VS?

<------- N.C.

The extreme damage fall off was put in the game to counter the benefit of having bullet drop. Thing is, bullet drop was only significant in beta, and was never a factor in the live game. Which basically meant that VS were penalised for a benefit that didn't do much and wasn't there in the weapons that it could make a difference.

If I had to choose between high bullet speed and no drop, the choice would always be high bullet speed (in PS2). And the reasoning is simple, high bullet speed allows for virtually no drop along with the ability to more reliably hit moving targets.

As for whether weapons over-perform, that's easy to see thanks to our friend in Oracle that collected the data and made the interface for us to easily check them:
PS2 Oracle of Death

Personal bias is a bad and unnecessary guide, when you have data from thousands of players playing the live game.

Point is, Rovertoo, that what Mish and other say is irrelevant.
They talk about their feelings, how they "feel" about VS weapons, and not about facts.

We are blessed that SOE give access to all combat results for us to be able to do statistics and serious analysis.
And the last time I go through numbers, who are facts and not just perceptions of a few, talkative players from NC/TR, VS weapons were not shown as performing better in average than TR/NC onces and the VS faction were not dominating the two other in any noticeable way.

So what?
When us, VS players, are getting already killed and defeated more than a fair amount of time on the field, what expect us to answer face to people like TheMish that bring biaised views ignoring the factual numbers, and ask us to be nerfed or the two other being buffed?

If you were already most than often on the loosing side, would you accept a nerf just because a bunch of such players keep saying you deserve it against all factual proofs?

I feel like there is a long-time lasting grief against the VS due to a lot of past balance mistakes. There was the excessive mobility of the magrider, the ZOE, the PPA... but all those things have been nerfed, with the assentment of the majority of the VS player base, even if there are some whinners on our side as well who raged about it.

I'll ask once again the same question that other have been asking previously: What is those players PROOF that VS is too much powerful?

If you are going to use the NC MAX shield as an arguement for how hard NC is to play, consider that the TRs equivalent makes you a free kill for anyone with C4 or brain.
The NC variant makes it so that you live longer...

Not saying that TR is harder than NC, but i just thought it was wierd how certain parts are left out/ignored to suit your arguement.

Anyone can do it.
Turn it around and list all the positive things about NC and all the negative things about VS/TR, and make it seem like NC is the easy one.

So in other words, completely destroy VS...thanks, but no thanks. Every faction has their good and bad, L2P because stats don't lie or find else where to go. But QQing about every little thing, is not the answer. What about the players? Nerf them too?

Yeah, you're right, this site does give some pretty good information. Carbines and Assault rifles at least are all pretty close together. However, it does give pretty good evidence that the LMGs in general are overperforming (could it be? I see the Orion is clearly over the top of it's counterparts, but all the others too? Am I looking at something wrong?) EDIT: found my error, but SVA-88 and Orion seem to be above the rest, others reasonably in line

I'd like to ask real quick though, what's KPU stand for? I've been going off of KPH (not entirely) but I know that's not accurate because it doesn't show usage stats. PPA for example had similar KPH compared to the other faction's AI secondaries, but it was equipped on nearly 100% of Magriders.

From the site's FAQ:

• Kills - Daily sum of kills of the particular weapon
• Uniques - Daily sum of unique killers of the particular weapon - i.e to be a unique, at least one kill has been made with that weapon.
• KPU - Kills per Unique, i.e Kills / Uniques. For normal-high usage weapons, this is a performance stat and not a usage stat, as the average KPU is calculated on a per period basis (one day)
• Average BR - Average BR value of unique users
• Qn KPU - KPU broken down by Unique BR quartiles - Q1 = BR 1-25, Q2 = 26-50, Q3 = 51-75, Q4 = 76-100
• Headshots - Sum of kills that were made with a headshot
• Headshot % - Headshots / Kills - Percentage of kills by headshot
• V KPU - Vehicle KPU - ground vehicles destroyed / Uniques
• A KPU - Aircraft KPU - air vehicles destroyed / Uniques
• Playtime - Playtime in hours of the particular weapon
• KPH - Kills per Hour - Kills / Playtime
• V KPH - Vehicle Kills per Hour - ground vehicles destroyed / Playtime
• A KPU - Aircraft Kills per Hour - air vehicles destroyed / Playtime

I hate how everyone floods into these obvious bait threads instead of discussing things that are more important.

Alright, thanks! So then, it seems to me that VS guns on their own are pretty well balanced (LMGs though. That's a mess.), and for the most part everything is right in there with the pack. However, I did notice (but maybe this is just my bias) that many VS guns were "on average" on the higher end of the performance grouping, but only marginally so. So I wonder then what the 'average' performance of all the stats is, considering all of the bad and the good weapons. I wish I could show more than just 3 weapons on the graph.

Explain to me how eye witness accounts are more trustworthy than forensic analysis.

Oh wait, you can't because that's not how it works in court. Statistical data is even more relevant in a video game than real life because a game's world, universe, physics and everything else is based completely on math. Everything you see has been coded using some algorithm. Math can accurately, without fail, predict and model the structure of a game's universe. We are still far from accurately modelling our own universe because there are still things we do not understand. Statistics provide very accurate information when relating to the balance of the game because its easily predictable.

But go on. Continue your biased campaign while maintaining a superiority complex over VS players. Its okay. No one will hate you for it. Okay, maybe some people.

This post was brought to you by VS Loyalists, sponsored by TheMish.

everyone gets access to the NS LMG which has .75 ADS. other factions have other weapons classes with the feature as well, either remove it completely since its sort of "emprie trait" that each empire has for a specific weapons class, or find another way to restore balance.

as for the rest of it, I see no reason why your gut feeling should be the soul factor in balance decisions concerning the entire VS small arms arsenal, i have over 500houts on each empire, and i really dont see this insane overpowered weapons collection, just a few outliers. Gut feeling, It seems to be all you have at the moment. things like ravens should be range limited, since they are just like the old AV mana, its practically the same issues the lancer has.

I think the .75 should be removed from the NS-15 too. No LMG, none should have it. I don't care if the thing fires BB's. If it's an LMG, no .75 ads.

Gut feeling? So far there's been more people calling for the same thing as me, than the other way around. The only thing I've noticed is there's much more VS complaining. It's clear it's more than gut feeling...don't you think?

I think the Ravens have a limited range, I do remember them exploding after a certain distance. Could've been a bug, didn't experience it since I never really cared much to see how far the rockets go. But if they don't, then the Vortexes should have their range cut too. The Fractures won't hit the broadside of a barn, but if it makes the VS loyalists less annoying, give them a range limit.

if enough people vote that a male rabbit is female because they can not see it genitals is that rabbit now a female? this is the territory you are currently heading into by disregarding statistics to such a reckless degree. group gut feeling is still just that, guy feeling.

ravens can hit way past the max infantry rend range, it is a flaw that needs to be corrected on many weapons as i have said already, its one of the few adjustments both vortex and lancer require as well.

The fractures could benefit from a Coyote mechanism. However, if we look strictly at performance, they perform identically to the Vortex. Pounders performance is off the charts against infantry and that should definitely be toned down, but on the other hand they should buff them against vehicles in some way. The NC MAX AV weapons right now are the best anti-vehicle performers and are competitive against infantry. VS MAX AV weapons lag behind in every category.

I agree that 0.75 should be removed from the LMGs. That would remove any delusion from those people that assume that it makes much of a difference. Not that that will stop people from complaining about Orion.

(If there is one class that gets nothing out of 0.75 ADS, that would be the heavy. If they don't activate the shield, they are the same as a medic, or an engineer or any other class with a 0.75 gun in their hands (all SMGs, all shotguns, a good deal of carbines and assault rifles). If they do activate the shield, then they move in sub 0.5 ADS speed.)

No not necessarily. I didn't say bring down the nerfhammer on the VS. I play the VS too afterall. I just want to be able to play all the factions, and have fun on them all. Instead of hoping on my VS and exterminating everything. Or hoping on my TR and being obliterated. Or hoping on my NC to farm TR, or lose constantly to the VS.

The other option, is strengthen the other factions. Although I wonder if just buffing the TR would do it. I always found the NC to be the best balanced faction except for a few things. But at this point, it's pretty much agreed universally that the VS need to nerfed directly or indirectly.

As for the stat's. They do unfortunately, they aren't very accurate. If the stats were so accurate, the PPA wouldn't be getting nerfed would it? I mean the Canister is doing better according to the stats. So clearly the Marauder and Canister most be superior? Gimme a break.

As for players. Every time some waste of organs tells me that, it's impossible to take them seriously. You have hundreds of people slugging it out, most of which PLAY OTHER FACTIONS. Something I wonder if it takes place among many VS loyalists here on the forum. I remember pissing one guy off over it.

If you haven't notice, normal, mentally stable people tend to play other factions. I do it too, so do many other forum players. That means my current skill transfers over, as does with other players. And even new players are common in both factions. The game isn't a dinosaur game yet.

And you're not dealing with 12 vs 12 mini-games. You have an endless war with a thousand or more people fighting constantly. At best, a skilled player takes out 3-4 people. But never carries the team, ever. They just become annoying here on PlanetSide.

So unless you've rounded up 300+ elite players to play on a continent, the skill argument isn't going anywhere.

Forensic analysis...is the analyst suffering from severe brain trauma? So far the stats haven't been doing well in accuracy for this game.

Like I told Ominous. If your cute little stats site was accurate. The Marauder or Canister would be nerfed. Not the PPA. One example out of many. But I guess one thing about it is accurate, the kills done in a day. Because as I'm looking at this site, assuming I've got it right. The PPA is getting more than 6000 kills more regularly....DAILY.

I love how someone like you is throwing around that I'm bias, like you're a perfect little neutral angel. Seeing how you are, I wonder if you're like the other loyalists that haven't even touched another faction.

But at least I know I'm getting somewhere, you're pretty much trying to piss me off since you've got nothing else to throw at me. So I'll make it easier for you and me. I will never, respond, to any post you ever make. Ever.

Now I know you don't know what you're talking about. Anyone who's used Ravens knows they're not that easy to use. Especially when the rockets are not really fast, and they're off from where you aim, especially with the recoil. That's why a lot of us strafe when we use Ravens. Because it kills the recoil enough to let you hit targets at a distance. Or you fire one arm at a time. Long distance shots are a pain in the *** to achieve. It's a bad argument, saying they're worth anything at very long ranges. The Vortexes are, since it's a beam that gets there quickly, where as the Ravens are hard to do it with. They're just really good at close to med range. Like 200 meters out, then get difficult long than that.

I'm not even going to respond to the first thing you said...it's ridiculous.

And if you know why the Fractures seem to be preforming like the Vortexes? Very few people use them, and the ones who do, usually got REALLY good with them. I mean seriously, it took me months to hit with anything that can be considered better than musket accuracy. Of course the average is going to go up for the Fractures. In reality, they are garbage. The only comfort I take in them is that they seem to be the best out of the 3 against infantry, so at least I can hold on to them when there's both vehicles and infantry to deal with. The Ravens though...damn, they punish everyone. But it's fine with me. The NC seem to be geared towards anti-tank power. I mean the Phoenix, Falcons, etc.

And no. Go to hell, do not touch the Pounders. Those things aren't worth a ******* thing against vehicles. The only time they becoming anything close to useful is if you want to be suicidal and lockdown. Anti-infantry, is all it has. The NC get fast and hard hitting falcons. VS get no bullet drop, and similar performance. So leave them alone. It's bad enough the TR max has the dumbest combination for infantry possible.

As for .75 I just want it removed for all LMG's because it's heavy weaponry. Heavy Assaults are supposed to be slow, tanks ...basically. Why should they be prancing around smacking you with thumb sized bullets like it's nothing? They're the perfect soldier, no wonder HA's are spammed. You have a walking god. 5 inch thick steel armor, fricken carries a 50 pound gun, with 20 pounds of ammunition. A damn rocket launcher with 5 extra rockets. And dances around like he's naked. Oh, and can turn a shield on to make him invincible for a short time. Did I mention regeneration implants?

I think the heavy does get something out of the .75. I mean LMG's and things like the MCG, Lasher, or Jackhammer are far superior to other weapons overall. It's not like the other guns have much to offer. They're all pretty close to copies. But the LMG's are deadlier. Usually hit harder, much more ammunition. So when you get to strafe fast with those, it's no surprise people keep spamming them, instead of sometimes choosing support.

now i can safely ignore you then i guess, since you have no idea how to approach argument objectively only from your personal perspective. especially if you dont understand how the first thing I said relates to the entire argument of saying "but other people have my gut feeling too!" as it really proves nothing of any value other then other people have the same feeling. The ravens are practically av-mana missiles on a max suit, so keep thinking they dont have a range advantage just because you cant seem to hit anything at range. yes lancers have faster projectiles, ravens have laser aim, its not the exact same thing but it does allow skilled players to easily hit tanks outside of render range just like the AV mana.

have a good life, you will probibly be the first person ever added to my ignore list, as you seem to have a problem having a productive or constructive argument at all.

ta ta for now.

You're under the impression that Vortex performs well. It's the absolutely worst MAX AV weapon in terms of performance, which also speaks wonders for Fracture. Pounders really do need to be nerfed in AI. Pounders right now perform better than Comets and Vortexes combined and that's almost all anti-infantry. Pounders are an AV weapon, so it should be good at AV and bad at AI, not the other way round.

Heavy assault is nothing special, it's merely the default FPS class, a class that is familiar to gamers coming from other FPS games. LMGs are definitely not the best weapons in the game. They are merely bullet hoses. In terms of damage, AR are kings, while carbines are a lot better at close quarters. And people play HA, because the rest of the classes require more familiarization with the game, as they are more complex in nature.