Why is there no hard counter to Air atm?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Jingstealer, Aug 1, 2015.

  1. CorporationUSA

    I don't believe I said that.
  2. Ronin Oni

    You said if the air can escape then it doesn't count as the AA being superior in the 1v1 and that it only counts as superior if the AA kills the ESF.

    The FIRST thing I would change would be to massively increase air deterrence XP. If chasing off an ESF is supposed to be as good as killing it for the immediacy, then reward the player accordingly.
    • Up x 1
  3. CorporationUSA

    I specifically said that the air running away has no bearing on whether or not AA is a counter to air. I think you misread my post.
  4. Ronin Oni

    Sorry, I was extrapolating...

    But if air doesn't run away, it dies; ergo AA is a counter to air.
    • Up x 1
  5. CorporationUSA

    Yeah that's exactly what I was getting at.
    • Up x 2
  6. PGxTeaLeaf

    Ok a few things here. I have read and understood every single reply. Some of them I skimmed a bit.

    This thread is about the skyguard versus a liberator. Why skyguard you ask? because it's the only AA ground weappon with the mobility needed to kill aircraft. The skyguard is the only real counter. The max can't chase down aircraft ducking behind hills, but the skyguard has a bit of a better chance. Lock ons are borderline useless due to flares, but in numbers they are very hard to survive if you've flown in too deep. An AA max is dead if caught outdoors and it needs to be resupplied or it will only get a few kills. Granted the AA max could be a bit more deadly considering the cost one puts forward in certs. It's ok for being useable while hiding in spawn roms.

    The skyguard vs esf game is fine. An esf can't just simply own a skyguard. It has to be a coordinated effort, or a successful sneak attack. In this aspect the skyguard I drive is actually overpowered when there are a few enemy aircraft I will typically kill all three unless they timed an attack perfectly or flee.

    Flying is not hard. Getting kills with any of the aircraft is not hard. You may not get as much as tanking but it is by no means dificult. This is the reason so many people choose to become proficient in the esfs. Avoiding aa lock ons and other ground enemies is not hard once you get the hang of it.

    The general consensus here seems to be that "yes" the lib is op. If you dont actively fly aircraft, and drive a skyguard, then you need to spend a few weeks in the practice before you comment. Better yet get all of these items strongly upgraded and come back to us. If you continuely get owned and have a very low k/d ratio then that is more evidence that you don't know what you're talking about. Your comments are just spreading disinformation.

    Now skyguard versus a fully manned liberator is actually balanced perfectly if you could flatten all the terrain. Don't believe me than try skyguarding in Essamir in the wide flattened river bed area. You guys know the place I'm talking about with the long bridges connecting capture points on Essamir. If the skyguard is fully upgraded with a skilled driver he or she can do quite well against a liberator and even kill them, or catch them on fire. It is much harder to sneak up on a skyguard if it is positioned in the middle.

    I'm not asking for much here. There are a lot of really good ideas, but I'm looking for a soultion to be implemented sooner rather than later. There are several ways this can be done. A few ideas are as follows. Any one of them would be great to see put in the works.

    Have lib take small arms damage.
    Give skyguard some type of stabilization on the turret while hitting bumps.
    Tighten cone of fire on skyguard.
    Give skyguard quicker maneuvering or turning somehow to dodge shots.
    Increase reload speed of skyguard.
    Give skyguard more damage to libs at close distance. Especially with direct hits.

    Adjust values somehow that after a successful tankbuster attack tail and belly guns must hit in order to kill a skyguard, and even after succesfully killing a skyguard they should be on fire. Just fine tune the skyguard damage just a little bit by bit until this is possible. Maybe the sg driver will even get a chance to hop out and get the kill with a deci.

    I could keep brainstorming, but these are just some small solutions that would make things a bit more friendly to skyguarding. Nobody cares what I'm saying here anyway.
    • Up x 1
  7. Shatteredstar

    Because this game is completely balanced around 1v1 encounters right?
  8. Ronin Oni

    Then I humbly apologize as I certainly did fully misinterpret your intent
    • Up x 1
  9. CorporationUSA

    It's not, but that is the definition of a counter. We can also say 10 heavies using LMGs is a counter to ESFs, or 50 stalker infiltrators with crossbows and explosive darts is a counter to armor, or 30 LAs with knives is a counter to MAXes. Having superior numbers is a counter to a lot of things, but it's not really what we are talking about.

    No worries :)
    • Up x 1
  10. Shatteredstar

    Problem is in these discussions people want a 1v1 counter when this game is never designed for one really. It seems like every argument about air or ground vehicles boils down to that problem grasping that 1v1 is not ment to be the balance point.
  11. CorporationUSA

    I believe the opposite to be true. 1v1 when it's a skyguard vs ESF, the skyguard wins. 1v2, a skyguard vs a 2 man lib crew, the lib wins. I think most people recognize that this is the current balance with regard to AA and air. It's hard to say 1v1 isn't meant to be the balance point when it is the balance point in this situation.

    I personally believe that skyguard need some sort of top armor play so libs can't kill them in one pass. That would actually change the 1v2 scenario in favor of the Skyguard, which is something I'm fine with. And this is coming from someone who celebrates every Skyguard death because I mostly fly an ESF.
    • Up x 2
  12. ColonelChingles

    The issue is that an effective counter means:
    1) You spend less resources than the enemy
    2) You spend less manpower than the enemy
    3) To kill the enemy

    The Skyguard is not an effective counter because:
    1) If you need two to three Skyguards to kill one Liberator, that is 700-1,050 nanites spent versus 450 for the Liberator.
    2) If you need two to three Skyguard to kill one Liberator, that is two to three people occupied versus one for the Liberator.
    3) Even two to three Skyguards are uncertain to kill the Liberator; chances are the Liberator will retreat alive.

    The main problem is that aircraft are frequently outnumbered because most aircraft aren't flying in organized groups. As far as I can tell, only a very small fraction of all aircraft I encounter are flying in a wing. Even then the most common of these is an "air swarm" where a lot of aircraft appear in one location but they don't seem organized. The most rare are actually functioning air wings where different aircraft will attack me simultaneously from different angles... these pilots I can respect and if they're actually using teamwork then I deserve to be taken down.

    But when a lone Liberator flies over a crowded battlefield and then is surprised that they die, that's more a problem for the Liberator than anyone else.
    • Up x 1
  13. JohnGalt36

    I'm just playing on the absurd notion that only air should be able to counter air, which, now that I think about it, perfectly describes Liberators.
    • Up x 3
  14. pnkdth

    The number one issue for me is when specialising against Air I'm left extremely vulnerable towards other ground units. This is obviously true for Air specialising against ground as well. However, Air specialising versus ground units are very efficient at dealing with ground units. By contrast, AA functions as a deterrent yet are still very bad/unable to deal with ground threats.

    This is why you see so many Burster MAXes hide in spawn rooms, and why it is fairly easy to isolate Skyguards. The tactics become predictable because of limited options.
  15. placeholder22

    Ground is unable to escape any given piece of air. Ground IS nothing but a death trap and cert piñata to air. It's only fair that if said ground is protected by a skyguard or similiar level of AA, instead of farming without risk, it gets farmed out of existence.
  16. placeholder22

    Wrong. If somehow the skyguard were made invulnerable to air weapons, hypothetically, the Liberators would just own the non-skyguard tank next to the skyguard and get away still, i.e. defeating the purpose for the existence of the skyguard again. That is the issue. The 1o1 situation of skyguard getting owned by the lib only highlights the actual issue: The Liberator is an order of magnitude too tough.
    • Up x 2
  17. CorporationUSA

    Are you suggesting that the lib needs a nerf against armor, or that a skyguard needs a buff against libs? I see no issue with libs being a counter to armor. I also don't think 1 skyguard(1 person) should shut down a lib(2-3 people). Lastly, I don't think a lib should be able to take out a skyguard in 1 pass.
  18. ColonelChingles

    It is sorta a myth that Liberators are often filled with 2-3 people.

    All Liberator primary weapons account for 715.2 hours.
    All Liberator belly weapons account for 379.5 hours.
    All Liberator tail weapons account for 166.8 hours.

    This means that 23.6% of the time it is definitely a 1/3 Liberator.
    Also 46.9% of the time there is a pilot but no belly gunner.
    And 76.7% of the time there is no tail gunner.

    This also doesn't account for 1/3 Liberators doing seat switching shenanigans.

    The problem is that the Liberator is a perfectly passable weapon running 1/3, unlike say the Harasser, Sunderer, or Valkryie (a one person Galaxy can still goomba-stomp tanks to death). So it easily makes sense that the Liberator should be treated as a single-person vehicle where a secondary gunner is an added bonus (much like an MBT).
    • Up x 1
  19. CorporationUSA

    Of course, but a lib without a belly gunner isn't nearly as effective as people like to claim it is. I'm sure there are some people who can solo lib pretty well, but most can't. And diving in with the intention of tank busting a tank and then switching seats right above the ground to dalton it is a gamble. The lib rotates on it's side, seemingly at random(though I may be wrong about that), when you switch to the belly gun. If you're doing this right above the battlefield while a skyguard is shooting you, there is a chance you won't pull it off.

    Also a solo lib is dead meat to half competent air. I know this thread isn't about A2A balance, but I'm just pointing out how impractical a solo lib really is. It's far too situational to balance anything on. If it's really an issue, they should just make it so the pilot can't switch seats, or make it rotate every time they do.
    • Up x 1
  20. Tiedemann

    This would make me happy.

    Mostly because I find it ridicules that the lib can practically land on my damn tank and get away with it before I can kill it, as long as it has some hills or trees or whatever so I can't get the third+ mag in it. The time it takes just feels completely wrong.
    I have no problem with the ones that dive in and use their nose gun and then the belly gun.

    I've had my Skyguard killed by a few gals too but that's my own stupidity and they don't have guns that matter much anyway.