Why is Reaver so OP

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Shad0w Snip3r, Mar 9, 2020.

  1. Shad0w Snip3r

    Damage per minute numbers calculated by multiplying damage per shot by fire rate for all ESF primary weapons:

    Default weapons:

    Mosquito M18 Needler:
    150*750RPM = 112500 DMG/MIN before 200m
    112*750RPM = 84000 DMG/MIN after 300m

    Scythe Saron Laser Cannon:
    160*732RPM = 117120 DMG/MIN before 200m
    125*732RPM = 91500 DMG/MIN after 300m

    Reaver M20 Mustang:
    190*667RPM = 126730 DMG/MIN before 200m
    160*667RPM = 106720 DMG/MIN after 300m


    Mosquito M18 Rotary:
    150*1000RPM = 150000 DMG/MIN before 100m
    100*1000RPM = 100000 DMG/MIN after 200m

    Scythe Maelstrom Turbo Laser:
    175*857RPM = 149975 DMG/MIN before 100m
    112*857RPM = 95984 DMG/MIN after 200m

    Reaver Vortek Rotary:
    240*750RPM = 180000 DMG/MIN before 100m
    143*750RPM = 107250 DMG/MIN after 200m

    Scythe and Mosquito weapons are fairly in line with each other, although the Scythe has a slightly better default gun while the Mosquito has a very slightly better rotary.

    Reaver's M20 mustang has 12.6% more DPS before 200m and 27% more after 300m compared to m18 needler
    Reaver's Vortek has 20% more DPS before 100m and 7.2% more after 200m compared to m18 rotary

    Clearly it's way better for air to air combat...? That higher DPS can easily be the difference between a kill and an enemy getting away or killing you first.
  2. Onical

    i don't fly but from my understanding the reaver as a slightly better gun but is a worse plane overall when it comes to mobility and what not.
    • Up x 3
  3. Demigan

    Size of the hitbox: Reaver has the most hitbox around its center (Mosquito and Scythe have a thin frame and holes respectively). The Reaver also has the largest hitbox from all angles except perfectly from the bottom compared to the Scythe, but a few degrees off and the Reaver is the largest again. And we are talking 10+% differences in size here.

    Rather than complain about this you should be looking at how we could improve the air-game itself. Like how the ESF does 90% of all available aircraft roles, or how the skill-curve of aircraft is inverted compared to the rest of the game preventing most players from enjoying it and sticking with it. Then when the game has improved we can look at ways to make the ESF more balanced, if that is still necessary.
    • Up x 5
  4. Gooyoung

    Actually true esp the skill curve. Prolly those who are average flyer can't even feel the diff and they are likely the majority
  5. blackboemmel

    When pro players do 1vs1 ESF tournaments the Scythe is banned or everyone uses the Scythe. For 1vs1 hover fight encounters the Scythe is best, end of story.

    Reaver is a flying brick. Easy to hit from all angles. For AP cannons, Decimators and Dalton guns. And of course ESF noseguns, handguns and everything else.

    Mosquito is hard to hit from every angle, Scythe is almost impossible to hit from front, back and sides.

    The Reaver's upsides are his superior hover thrusters (which at the end of the day only helps absolute pro pilots), his superior "sprint speed" and it's slightly superior "alpha damage" from the noseguns. (Not talking about the "Kastrel").

    These upsides give the Reaver a superior "jumping" (sneaking up on enemy ESF and kill him before he can shoot back) power.
    Feels bad, when you are on the receiving end. On the other hand: It doesn't matter Which ESF jumps which one - at comparable skill level the jumping ESF always wins.
    • Up x 1
  6. Shad0w Snip3r

    That, and moreover it seems like it would give a higher skill ceiling generally, I mean if someone's aim is good enough the hitbox doesn't matter as much (but even with perfect aim there is bullet spread etc)

    If I'm correct, "Jumping" someone *from full health, but assuming every shot hits* with the Vortek gives them 1 second until death, while it's 1.2 seconds for the others. Of course they'll react sooner and start trying to dodge, but if they react say 0.6 seconds later, they'd have only 40% health remaining after being jumped by the reaver while they'd have 50% left when jumped by the other fighters. And the reaver's higher damage will make quick work of that remaining 40% while the target with 50% has a better chance of escaping.

    I get the increased vulnerability from a larger hitbox is a downside, although IMO that mostly counts in air vs air encounters where the pilots have bad aim. Flak shots explode when they're shot in your general vicinity, so the hitbox doesn't matter there. I think just, like, scaling down the Reaver model slightly to shrink the hitbox and nerfing the guns a bit would make it more even.
  7. iStalk

    LMAO!!! okay wrong.
    Scythe > reaver > mossie (for 1v1 duels)
    The mossie is the weakest esf. The reaver has a bigger hitbox but has the best thrusters, so it can dodge a lot better. Or just shift to win. The scythe has a smaller hitbox than mossie. But does more damage, faster reloads and hard to hit. It also has a weird thing going on when shots hitting the fangs don't always register correctly, which is why it's the roadkill king.
  8. AbsinthSvK

    just lol. Threads against NC are just ridiculous. NC have best MAXs best shotgun best tank and now best ESF? Wake up. Whats next ? NC blue color is OP because blue is default colour for friendly unit in other games? again and again you compare raw dmg, but in real fight raw dmg is only part of the specifications.
    • Up x 2
  9. Liewec123

    aaages ago someone took the models and rendered them from the front and then ran a count of the pixels.
    as you can see, face to face in dogfights Reaver is an 18% larger target than Mosquito
    and a massive 62% larger target than scythe,
    which is why (as Blackboemmel pointed out above) sythes aren't allowed in competitive 1v1 dogfights.
    but yeah "nerf reaver!" because they nerfed our vanguard, they nerfed our max, so why not our ESF...
    • Up x 2
  10. AlcyoneSerene

    I'd like to discuss that old pixel comparison of the front profile.

    1st off, the landing gear I'm pretty sure is not a hitbox, so including it on both the Mossie and Reaver is biased making the Scythe appear much smaller than it really is.

    The wings and especially the tail fins are not something you aim for, on the reaver they move as the ESF rolls quickly, and the Mossie they do that plus pivot up-down making that even harder to hit.

    Front profiles aren't everything, either. A Scythe has a massive hitbox from above or below despite the hole in the center, and no, you don't need to be seeing it 100% from the top or bottom to be easy to hit. I believe the Mossie has the greatest functional advantage as the average hitbox by pixel size from all angles makes it more versatile than Reaver and especially Scythe, since battles are not just 1vs1 by meeting straight on all the time.

    As someone already mentioned, the Reaver has the strongest afterburners by far and highest afterburner top speed, essential for ambush or short range escape, but perhaps more importantly to the strongest vertical thrust in hover mode which if in a close enough 1vs1 exceeds the max pitch - I know this part since I regularly use max pitch and cannot keep my signs on the reaver as it does this. The power of its vertical thrust is also regularly used defensively to counter ambushes on Reavers, and I have not yet learned how to predict and compensate for it as it does the reverse maneuver. Again, the Reaver has a bigger hitbox, but with effective use of hover mode afterburners it can hide it much better than any of the other two.
  11. Liewec123

    hmm you're right about the landing gear, though you also made a good point about the thrusters moving.
    i'd not accounted for the moving parts, the landing gear barely amounts to anything on the reaver,
    but OH MY GOD i forgot that the whole wings turn upwards,
    wow, the pixel count diagram is only a fraction of the actual target in a dogfight! :eek:

    so without realising it you've pointed out to us that the reaver pixel count when dogfighting
    should actually be MASSIVELY higher than what is shown in the diagram.

    some googling found me this pic, no pixel count but its obviously going to make reaver a waaay bigger target than the 62% with landing gear but forward facing wings. we're looking at 80%+ easily.
  12. AlcyoneSerene

    Right, I forgot about that too, and the wings hitbox remain pretty large from other angles.
  13. InexoraVC

    You're absolutely wrong. I started to fly 6 months ago and now I can resume that all ESFs are ~even.
    Scythe may be good in 1v1 hover combats but sucks being catched from behind/bottom/top because it has to turn and show his large flat belly.
    Reaver is good for ambushes from the rear, has nice thrust but it has the low speed, loud engines and small magazines.
    Mosquito is fast, has Banshee and large magazines and looks small, but requires good aim in A2A to land all shots fired because of lower damage per round.

    In live play the pilot's skills are much more valuable than chosen type of esf.
    Player with better aim and flight control will always beat his opponent despite what esfs are they in.
  14. Broffensive

    An ace pilot will NEVER show you their pancake. "Being catched from behind/bottom/top" means they weren't paying attention, which is deserving of a loss regardless of faction.
  15. Shad0w Snip3r

    It might be better for A2G but it's pretty clearly disadvantaged for A2A, the banshee is garbage at A2A, and I think the reaver's higher afterburner speed is more valuable than the lower afterburner speed but higher cruise speed of the mosquito for A2A. The reaver's fast afterburner to close quickly combined with higher DPS make it obnoxiously good at sneaking up and wasting you in A2A.
  16. Xenocide

    Are we really discussing this? Discussing Reaver's and Scythe's hitbox is like discussing the earth is flat or round.