Why is it that a single infantry can 'solo' a MBT in this game?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by orangejedi829, Jul 30, 2015.

  1. EliteEskimo


    Based on what? The maker of this thread is being insulted and made fun of by infantry side hooligans who have little concept of balance. I have excellent situational awareness and the current relationship between C4 and their damage output against MBT's is broken.
    • Up x 5
  2. Takara

    Your answer is ludicrous....Jump pads are in very specific areas....mainly around biolabs and a few oother bases. They are fairly rare. Some of the onese they are at don't even go over drivable terrain. So really...this doesn't happen that much.

    Valkyries......seriously NEVER had this happen. If a plane is over me....I'm not dumb enough to stand still for it. You can see them..hear them coming from a long way off. Moving prevents this...so again if you die it's your fault for standing there and wearing the blinders of battle to not look at your hub or listen to your surroundings.

    I can just make stuff up too..."A light assault could be standing ontop of a Galaxy 700 meters in the sky and tossing C4 off the edge. Just cuz it can happen doesn't mean it does or will. Stuff like this is so fringe it seriously accounts for less thatn .00000001% of C4 kills.

    I have seen valks drop four HA's on cover and use lock on/dumb fires to decimate tanks. But i've never gotten hit, or seen a Valk dropping C4. Such a thing is so hard to do against tanks in battle I'm going to say....Video or it didn't happen.


    Lastly....well yes. This happens... you aren't always 100% on guard. Neither am I...I do die to C4 it does happen. But it's generally pretty rare for me. But just because they can do it doesn't mean its OP. But honestly I'm always looking at my mini map well my cannon or secondary gun is reloading. Generally dying to C4 happened because you and your tank have moved into CAMP MODE where you have settled in to someplace cozy and started to farm infantry and or sniping at enemy tanks. In which case I don't have much sympathy for you.
    • Up x 2
  3. Takara


    Balance? Is it balanced to take away one of the few things that actually scares tanks away from masses of infantry. Even in RL tanks don't roll through territory filled with unfriendly infantry. It's asking to die. Tanks in both real life and this game are not designed to work on the front line with some help from friendly infantry.

    The person here who has no concept of balance is the guy asking to make his tank near invincible vs infantry. That is coming from someone who has a fully certed mag. And an almost fully certed prowler. Grow up...C4 can kill you. If you can't figure out how not to die from it most of the time...all the nerfing in the world won't save you from dying.
    • Up x 4
  4. orangejedi829

    I'm sure if it were so elementary how C4 is not unbalanced, you could have explained the reasons why in that fairly lengthy paragraph instead of saying "Good players like me know that what I say is right." But I suppose you just don't have time for that.
  5. LodeTria

    The only thing I would change is make so 1 c4 no longer 1hkos infantry. It's always used as a anti everything package and that does need to stop.
  6. Iridar51

    Never said it was elementary. Seeing as this is the seventh page of the thread, I'm pretty sure somebody else would convince you, if that was at all possible right now.

    You need more experience to realize the answer yourself. Trying to prove anything to you right now would be pointless.That's like trying to teach a newborn kitten to see. Time will pass and his eyes will open by themselves.
  7. ColonelChingles

    That's why Iridar and I don't talk directly anymore!

    Unless it's about non-tank stuff I guess. :D
    • Up x 1
  8. EliteEskimo


    one of the few things? You mean like other than HA's which is the most popular class in the game and comes equipped with a rocket launcher? You mean other than tank mines which don't render consistently and can instagib mbt's, you mean other than AV maxes of which 2 can hold back squads of tanks if they have cover, you mean other than ESRL's which can be shot from 600 meters away or from behind cover where MBT's can't hit them, you mean other ***** flashes which can come from behind a hill and instagib you in the middle of a fight? You mean other than all that? I'm asking for C4 to be directional and not take 80% health away in one brick. That's not asking for invincibility, my question to you is why are you compelled to make a strawman to debate against me? No valid points? Ah okay. I'm among the most experience tankers in Planetside 2, but that doesn't mean I can't point out imbalanced game design. Having a full certed tank means nothing. I could easily fully cert out a galaxy right now if I wanted to, that doesn't make me an expert on them. Grow up? Try making a valid argument.

    Jump pads are located around bio labs,amp stations, and other bases. Not that rare. Saying it doesn't happen much is subjective and doesn't mean it doesn't occur thus I can use it in an arguement. People have made entire montages around c4ing vehicles via using jump pads and drifters.

    Uh if they fly right over you sure, what about ones which bail high above you? People use this method to target me on a regular enough basis because trying to come after in ways I can fight back is normally unfruitful for them. You can't move 24/7 sometimes you must rely on cover and sometimes I want to use Anchormode, and unlike Magriders which have excellent moving stabilization Prowler's don't. I'm not making stuff up, I have no reason to. Using hyberbole exaggerations to equate to my examples doesn't give strength to your arguement.
  9. EliteEskimo


    After awhile all you have to do is prove him wrong enough and he'll block you directly.
    • Up x 1
  10. orangejedi829

    Well if you're not going to contribute to the discussion yourself, why bother posting?
    I listed several reasons why C4 is potentially too powerful. Feel free to refute them.
    • Up x 1
  11. Lagreskul



    I don't know if I should reply to this, as it's on page 3 of 7, but said munition deflection is a result of a Russian development starting with the T-34 and is now essentially in use in the design of all tanks, in which you have the armor angled. If you don't know what I'm talking about, take it back to the source and look at the difference between a Tiger tank and a T-34. If you want to see people jumping on the bandwagon, look at the King Tiger. :p
  12. Iridar51

    I don't think I'll live long enough for my eyes to open to your level. A lot of stuff you say is just is so out of this world, and basically boils down to "realism in all things, at any cost". I respect you for your tenacity and standing by your views, but that's about it.
  13. ColonelChingles

    I think it's more like that we each have a different idea for the game. And we find it unlikely that we will change each other's minds.

    In terms of facts (statistics about the game, how the game is currently played) we are more or less in agreement. More a difference of vision.

    It hasn't gotten that bad... occasionally Iridar and I even agree on things like Flash balance.

    We just never, ever can talk about tanks without it devolving into something messy. :p
  14. EliteEskimo


    False, you can take some of the most experienced tankers in the game like myself or Alarox. We hate being C4'd and actively try to avoid it, it still happens. It does have to do will the skill of the C4're. The average person bum rushes my tank on the ground, they die, the really good ones or ones who want to take me out use methods I can't react to like coming from above my LOS.

    The same guy who is a primary LA player and think tanks come with no disadvantages thinks C4 isn't OP? Makes sense. I regularly associate with via Team speak and play with many of the best tankers in the game, many have at least one if not a few discrepancies with C4. He can play with other good tankers sure, but that doesn't change the fact that C4 is inherently broken, particularly in the hands of a LA.
    • Up x 3
  15. Iridar51

    Well put. But haven't we talked about changes to HE/HEAT recently? Your thread where you banked on HEAT doing same damage at any distance and AP's damage should scale with distance? I brought my own idea of simply normalizing all velocities to create a clearer choice. I don't remember it being messy in that thread.

    Believe me, I already regret starting.

    Oh fine. Your reasons are so simple, you yourself could refute them if you'd just stop for a second instead of pushing forward and forward.

    - C4 is cheaper
    C4 can't be repaired, can't be picked up, can't be used more than once.

    - C4 is just as effective at killing the tank as the tank is at killing the infantryman (both instant kills, for all intents and purposes)
    Tank has his whole ammo complement to try and hit, and can get resupplies. C4 requires both bricks to be on target, and there is only 1 attempt for each brick. Miss = wasted trip, unless tank is already damaged, which is a whole another bag of riskis.

    - C4 is easier to use than it is for the target to avoid
    Placing C4 requires to push a button to run up to a tank.
    Avoiding C4 requires to push a button to move the tank away.
    Both are mechanically simple, and both require knowledge of the game, terrain, awareness. Like I said before, tank needs to first put itself in a bad position, just so there is even a possibility of a C4 attempt. First mistake is on the tank. It's up to C4 user to punish it.

    - C4 is simultaneously extremely effective at both AI and AV
    Same goes for any tank cannon, except for Skyguard, which still can be used for self defense against infantry. Not even talking about MBT secondary weapons, which can further enhance tank at a specific role.

    - C4 is thrown and thus can be 'placed' from great range
    The whole great range of ~10m. Meanwhile tank cannon kills all the way from the render range, and with some cannons direct hit isn't even required.

    - C4 can be 'pulled' from any terminal
    Not from any terminal. Only from infantry terminal or a sunderer. And why does it even matter? You have a tank when you pull it, you have C4 when you spawn with it. If you go all the way back just to resupply on C4, you may as well count that as a separate life.

    You can't use C4 to travel at 50-70 KPH. You can't use C4 in long range fighting against any target. You can't use C4 to destroy more than 1 target, unless multiple targets are stacked together, which multiplies the risk for the user.

    You can sit here and make up bull **** reasons why you think C4 is OP, but I'm not interested in reading them, and refuting them. So here's the last nail.

    If C4 was OP, it would be used by everyone to kill vehicles. If C4 was OP, it would mean it's better at killing vehicles than other AV weapons, including other tanks. Well, we have this here awesome site Oracle of Death, and it can show us average vehicle Kills-per-Users stats for this month:
    • All HA rocket launchers combined: 1,06
      • This means, that an average HA using an average launcher, kills 1,06 vehicles per month.
    • Tank Mines, all factions: 1,67
    • C4 and C4 ARX, all factions: 1,24
    • All MBT cannons combined: 2,73
    • All MBT secondaries, excluding AA and AI: 1,86
    • All Lightning cannons combined, except Skyguard: 1,83
    These are irrefutable facts. Raw data. Not uneducated opinions and arguments about skill. This is what happens, and what happens is that C4 kills fewer vehicles than any vehicle mounted weapon, and than even tank mines, a utility that only 1 class can use, vs 4 classes for C4.

    C4 just isn't OP. It's infuriating, because you just get oneshot without warning, and it sucks to be on the receiving end of that. Just as it sucks to be an infantryman that receives a tank cannon oneshot out of nowhere. Or is being chased by the tank that he can't fight in any way. It's not any different from being sniped, really.

    There's plenty of unpleasant stuff in this game, but just because it's unpleasant doesn't mean it's OP. It needs to change - because it's unpleasant and not fun. But not because it's too effective in its role.
    • Up x 3
  16. EliteEskimo


    OrangeJedi since Iridar has me blocked feel free and I encourage you to use or what I'm about to type, because honestly this is fun for me and Iridar won't see my points unless you do since he has me blocked.


    1. C4 is cheaper- True, 2 sticks cost less than half of a MBT at 100 resources a stick, so that's pretty obvious. You also don't lose it unless you throw it, giving you near unlimited attempts to get the perfect opportunity to C4 your opponent. From personal experience I've killed LA's numerous times at the same battle but they never run out of resouces so eventually I'll be in a fight and they'll get me. LA's can also die and be revived and still have their C4 on them. While C4 can't be repaired the person using them can have regen implants which heal them over time.

    2. C4 is just as effective as killing a tank as a tank is killing infantry- Lets break down some facts. If your tank shell doesn't directly hit infantry it normally won't kill it, and in the case of the Prowler AP shell an AP shell directing hitting an HA with the overshield on won't kill him. C4 only has to land on the ground directly beside the tank and will still instigib and blow the tank, try it out. C4 does roughly 80% damage per stick to a MBT means a MBT only has to be slightly damaged to be one shot by a single stick of C4.

    3. C4 is easier to use. That's subjective, but I'll still refute his claims. You don't have to run up to a tank to C4 it, you can fly 51 meters or higher above a MBT and kill it. The whole melee range to C4 a tank arguement ends when LA's get put into the equation because they seldom are in melee range of you, normally they are flying directly overhead and above you LOS. Avoiding C4 completely requires you to have a spherical 360 degree field of view at all times as it only takes 3 seconds to deploy and blow up C4 to kill you. Unfortunately MBT's and their gunners don't have that type of turret elevation to have the LOS to do so. A bad position in a tank can be in the middle of the open field, or even over 100's away from a cliff or or jump pad. Essentially any position which a LA can come from above your LOS is a bad position, which is most places in Planetside 2.

    4. C4 being extremely effective at AI and AV- This is true, but admittedly so can Tank AP rounds if you are skilled enough to consistently direct hit.

    5. C4 can be thrown from great range- Yes, yes it can and it's not limited 10 meter :rolleyes: Here are a few examples, I could find more but these three should easily suffice. The whole melee range c4 argument is ludicrous.

    Shows a ton of different examples of LA's with C4



    Mainly shows how easy it is to use jump pads to catch tanks completely off guard with no way to defend against it.


    This video shows how effective bailing from aircraft to C4 vehicles as LA can be.


    6. C4 can be pulled from every terminal- Well there are separate kinds, but you can pull C4 from every base and Sunderers meaning you can have C4 on every hex of the playable map.

    7. You can't use C4 to travel at 50-70 KPH? Jump pads and bailing from vehicles at high velocities would like to have a word with you.

    8. When you die as an infantryman you lose nothing, no resources, you can be revived, or healed, or respawn via beacon, sunderer, galaxy, base, with no restrictions. Tanks have to drive into battle which can at times take as much as five minutes. MBT's have the most restrictions of any unit in the game in Planetside 2, infantry have the least. C4 being OP is subjective depending on what aspect you are talking about.

    C4 being in the hands of ground bound infantry classes is fine. On LA's it's broken because they can easily come from above your LOS and can be far from melee range when using it. C4 is broken because one stick can take roughly 80% of a MBT's health even if it's not a direct hit and it doesn't matter where it explodes on the tank. That's broken. Hope this helps :D
  17. Iridar51

    I don't remember why I blocked you, but pretty sure not because you "proven me wrong". Proof or didn't happen.

    What I said: "It's nearly impossible to C4 a tank that doesn't want to be C4'd" is technically correct. Avoiding simple mistakes, like parking your tank under a balcony or driving deep into enemy flank, is enough to prevent vast majority of C4 attempts. And this is what I am talking about in this thread.

    But there's another side of the coin. The small minority of C4 attempts:
    • LA using an ESF/Valkyrie taxi, which bumps up the nanite cost of ONE ATTEMPT to 400-550 nanites (Valk is 200 nanites, right? Or 250? doesn't matter).
    • Flash with strapped C4 to it (optionally a Wraith Flash that uses its gun to detonate the C4).
    • C4 on LA using Drifters and/or Jump Pad help.
    These ones are much harder to foresee and to prevent. If somebody really really wants to C4 your tank, there's not much you can do about it. Even moving 100% of time, which would be hugely impractical, wouldn't help against Wraith Flash.
    I discount Flash C4 from the argument because I count that an abuse of the game mechanics. Maybe the ability to do it needs to be removed, just as they removed C4 sticking to infantry. I discount air taxi because that is balanced around nanite costs that you so love to bring.

    C4 on LA is where you, in your bias against me, will expect me to put up the most fight. But the truth is - I kinda don't care. Maybe it is OP. Maybe it isn't. There are people like belthazor who believe that LA is made to C4 everything, and that is his sole purpose.
    I find C4 useful to have when I need to remove that one obnoxious farmer who sits on a hill and shells the spawnroom. But if I need to actually fight vehicles, I'd rather pull my own, or use something with a bit more range to it.

    Like I said a bit earlier in this thread, it sucks to be on the receiving end of C4, just as it sucks to be on the receiving end of vehicles. I believe both those things need adjustment to involve more counterplay than just "I kill you!", "No, I kill you!".
  18. EliteEskimo


    If you expect me to go back the 3 or so months ago through numerous comments to find the one in which this event occurred that is unreasonable. The point is you did have me blocked and you conveniently can't remember. Let me remind you then, it was specifically in an argument much like this regarding tanks utility against C4. You had posted a comment which had stated that spawning a tank had no disadvantages, I posted up a list of disadvantages of pulling a MBT and all the restrictions of pulling ones which dwarfs that of infantry. I just got done making a rather long list of points and included three videos for you to watch to show you my points which are located directly above. Iridar you have great knowledge and expertise in the ways of infantry, but your comments have personally always come off with a massive anti-tank bias. Over the past 6 months I went from playing infantry almost none to playing infantry just about as much as I tank, my opinions have changed little in what I think of the overall infantry v tank balance discussion and in particular the relation of C4 v MBT's.
    • Up x 3
  19. Iridar51

    3 months? Last message you have to me is dated by July `14, more than a year ago. I don't have any messages to you whatsoever.
    I've checked every post that I made with words "disadvantage" or "disadvantages", and I couldn't find a post where I would say "pulling a tank comes with no disadvantages".

    I do remember being banned several times, during heated discussions. Sometimes I'd directly insult the opponent, other times mods would misinterpret my words and treat them like an insult and ban and delete my posts. I honestly don't remember, maybe this was the case with you - I got banned during an argument, posts got deleted, and I blocked you to avoid having to deal with you anymore.

    I suggest treating that as an opportunity to have a fresh start. Past is past, and there is no proof that past even existed - if there was such proof.

    I don't really care if you're the same person or not, because I'm not the same person. I know I got a somewhat deserved rep as "infantryside biased" guy, but I really want to step away from that. I still have my issues with vehicles. But I can address them with much more calm.

    I'm sorry you wasted energy on that big post with arguments, but I am not gonna address them. Because they are not for me, they are for another Iridar that you once got in argument with. And honestly - I don't want to address the issue.

    If you wanna spearhead a campaign to "fixing" C4 - I'm gonna be there to support you. Other people, like Alarox and Chingles, have offered sensible changes to C4, like changing damage of one brick from ~70-80% to 51%, and making C4 damage a vehicle only if it's directly stuck to it. That already should alleviate much of your pain.
  20. EliteEskimo


    Never thought I'd see the day, that's pretty cool man . That post was not meant just for you, it is also for any other person in this thread or who is reading it and thinks C4 as it currently is in game is fair and balanced which it is not, and for orangejedi to defend his position. You should at the very least look at the LA's videos I posted, as they will clue you into the very unfair and indefensible scenarios I see occurring in on a regular basis on Emerald. I will not be spearheading any campaigns because I've recognized that the current developers have no intentions to balance infantry Vs tank balance atm and seeing as they took Higby's revamp and turned it into a massive tank nerf with no justification or support from the community, in addition they and RadarX have ignored the heavily upvoted and supported community threads on reddit to move forward with phase 2 which would increase tank durability. If that changes I'll make threads.
    • Up x 1