Why I dislike the current NC AI MAX.

Discussion in 'MAX' started by Kirbs, Jul 25, 2014.

  1. Kirbs

    I apologise if this looks like a rant, I suppose it is in essence but then if everything was perfect we’d have nothing to say. I’d like to talk about the NC AI MAX and my displeasure with it. It is something that has been on my mind for over a year now and I just want to get my opinion out there for people to see, hopefully the developers. They say they listen to use, so here is hoping.

    I play on the Miller server as NC exclusively and there are some very good and organised outfits that I have fought against, mostly these are TR based. One of the things that I see time and time again is a large co-ordinated effort to hold control points by the enemy and each time I see it I feel a stab of jealousy. Trying to approach the point through a door usually sees you getting cut down instantly, or losing a substantial amount of health from the cycler max and its VS equivalent. There are so many bullets coming at you even if you are 20-30 meters away you are bound to get hit by something, whether this results in death or a loss of shield and health the result is the same, you are at a disadvantage. Now put the NC Max in the same situation, at 20-30 meters away you have a lot less deadly bullets coming at you. Chances are you can make a lot better use of the environment in the area because you are not getting shot at so much, and even if they did start shooting the pellets will likely either miss or do a trivial amount of damage.

    Now a lot of you at this point are probably saying “Well hold on their buddy, what about doors?” and you would be right to say that. The NC AI MAX is great at standing in a doorway and shooting at things that pop-up around the corner. Whack-a-mole MAX is used in Biolabs quite effectively at doorways and is probably the sole reason why some people may think the NC Max is in an O.K. place... It is not. At least in my opinion it is not and that is because of the play style I have. When I play an FPS the one thing that can keep a player alive is being unpredictable and that is where the NC AI MAX fails on so many levels. When you attack the NC you know exactly where the MAX will be placed, right on the opposite side of the damn door. So now armed with this information you are now able to effectively mount a plan of combat, this includes spamming dumbfire rockets at the floor, using its splash damage to hit the MAX and any engineers standing right next to it. Placing C4 in the doorway, and using anti-vehicle grenades rolled straight at the maxes feet. This type of assault now leads to the next problem:

    The Butterly Effect
    One thing that frustrated me more than playing an NC max is playing BESIDE an NC AI MAX. It is frustrating. If you are trying to use an anti infantry turret or more usually just trying to shoot at the oncoming enemy or doorway you can bet the NC AI MAX is constantly popping in and out of the doorway blocking the view and blocking your shots. What is worse is because they take so much damage from splash they need an engineer right next to the doorway to keep them alive, so that is even more people in the way blocking your shots. Then when the attack does eventually come the engineer dies first, the max dies rapidly after, and then you die because you’ve lost all your back up. I see it time and time again each day and it makes my blood boil because I know a TR or VS max would be further in the room, not getting hit by grenades and not blocking anyone with an engineer next to him who is relatively safe from the breach point.
    The style of the NC MAX leaves no way of implementing advanced tactics and is far too predictable. In my opinion its one of the main reasons, if not THE reason, why the NC does so badly in any large scale fight.

    The Shield
    I won’t say much on this suffice to say it probably does more harm than good, though it is better than the default Charge. The VS and TR abilities lead to an aggressive play style, which lets face it is the main thing you want in a MAX, however the NC AI MAX doesn’t allow for it. The shield in most cases, even at full, can be burned down very quickly in a fight where the MAX is needed most, and that is approaching a control room. So many times I’ve stood on a balcony or ledge and thought “How can I get close to that room with that barrage of bullets coming my way”. I can’t even shoot back with my scatter weapons because it is simply too far away. If I try to use the shield it will be burned down in seconds and I’ll be stranded. I can’t even protect the engineer behind me because of the weird way bullets and hit detection work in the game, combined with the splash damage he would receive. The NC Max isn’t self sufficient in many situations and it has led to the enemy being unafraid of any MAX which has his shield out. I’d like VS and TR players to think about what they feel when they see an NC MAX with a shield out that is more than 10 meters away. Let me ask you, what goes through your mind when you see this? Is it fear or more likely excitement at the opportunity to shoot at something that you know cannot temporarily fight back?

    AI MAX in the field.
    Simply put, never leave the base without changing into Ravens or Busters. Just don’t be one of those guys. It will only lead to heartbreak. I’ve seen some outfits use their AI MAXs to great effect to break out of a spawn room and wreak havoc on the enemy from a distance, especially if you are defending and have the higher ground. The NC doesn’t really have this option. It is the reason why the NC pull the least MAXS and until the problems with the NC AI MAX are addressed the fighting force of the NC will be missing some of its heavy artillery when it needs it the most.

    Don’t get me wrong, I can get some fair streaks on my NC MAX inside close quarters, and I’ve done my fair share of one-hitting people at close range. That must suck, but it is just one more reason to change the NC AI MAX so that it is fairer on everyone, not just the NC. I’m sure the statistics show that the NC is killing lots of infantry with its AI MAX, unfortunately what statistics will not show is that its collecting these kills in such a way that doesn’t aid the faction and ultimately in fights where it actually matters and where it is really necessary.

    Conclusion
    The simplest change I can think of is to give the NC Gauss guns and take away the shotguns. This is something that many people have suggested on the forums many times. It is a change I feel most people would really like to see, and ultimately doesn’t really have any disadvantages. Shotguns should never have been on a MAX in the first place.

    Thank you for reading.
    • Up x 15
  2. Revanmug

    Most of the population hate the NC AI.

    Users: It's a dual shotgun so you are stuck with a very limiting weapon.
    Meat: It's a dual shotgun so you are instantgib when entering its range.
    • Up x 11
  3. ElastaPlast

    When is the last time you flipped a point from 20-30 metres away? If the enemy has the pointed locked down as well as you indicate here, you're going to die, or at least be at a major disadvantage, whoever is defending. I've had a lot of death handed to me by NC maxes so I don't have a lot of sympathy for this "situationally weakest" max. Don't get me started on NC Max AV spam :eek:
  4. Goretzu

    Shotguns on MAXs could work well..... unfortunately it would require PS1 choked modes which for some reason are either impossbile to impliment in PS2 or that the Devs just really, really, really don't like them (for some inexplicable reason).

    Otherwise all NC MAX and Vehicle shotguns face the same unbalanceable-ness which annoyingly tends to leave them too powerful AND too weak both at the same time. :(
  5. Goretzu

    It's not about flipping the point from 20-30m away it is about whether you have to get to 30m or 5m to kill everyone on that point.

    You are completely right though the best NC MAX AI weapon IS arguably the AV weapons.... for precisely that very reason.
  6. JudgeNu

    I just started using a MAX, I have dual shotties slugs etc and dual falcons nearly fully certed armors

    If you are shooting at your team because they got there first then find another spot.
    I see constantly what you are talking about.

    Too many times everyone ( NC ) is fighting over who is going get the farm kills when no one is watching a flank, weak point etc, and the line falls to pieces as well as the only sundy in town.

    I typically dwell in these areas of our flanks and weak points.
    As a MAX I stay where I am most effective.

    I am not camping to get kills before everyone else does, I go to where I can also be useful and not part of the problem.
    If I go out of this realm of shotgun effectiveness I try to equip my Falcons.

    I doubt they will give MAX access to Gauss type weapons.
    I think they should adjust the sounds and visuals of the shotttie, imo it seems too soft.

    I don't use the shield, charge imo is much more effective than a stationary shield, unless it is a MAX shield wall!
  7. MrNature72

    You got a lot of credibility with the detail in "the butterfly effect", that was pretty interesting.

    I totally agree.
    • Up x 3
  8. Magiclsd69

    I've seen quite a few threads about nc max and it's lackluster weapon choice. When i joined nc i thought i was gonna get some high damage weapon, boy was i wrong.

    Nc max suffers in a lot of aspects not just range. One of those aspects is supression.You get 13 shells max and minimal 10 when you spend 1k certs on extended mags. Plus if you want to reach out and touch someone you need to drop 300 certs on slug ammo but you loose on max vs max engagements. While tr and vs have minimal round from 50 to max 150?. So nc max has less kills per mag and long reload, that doesn't sound good when you gotta hold a door.

    Cert investment. Vs/Tr need to spend 250 certs minimal to become effective killing machines with decent supresion and range (or they can just get it from the quiz). Nc has to spend more, starting with scatter with 5/6 shots and grinder with a few rounds more, it isn't really tempting to use. Plus the fact you gotta hug your enemies to death. To get a decent range weapon on nc max you need mattocks which have low dmg per pellet but offer range. But that's 3300k cert investment to make them viable. So you don't want to buy mattocks cool, you got other option you cna go grinders which are decent weapons but you better cert your flak armor since again you gotta hug your enemies or walls where c4 can be tossed quite easly.

    Range. If you want you use nc max as range you are gonna have a bad time. You sacrifice a lot to have a few feet of killing power and at a great cert cost. While blueshifts can do it better, more consistent and more accurate.
    Punishing. If you miss a few shots with tr or vs max you won't really feel it you got 50+ more to get stuck in someones head. If you miss a shot with nc max you are gonna be: A) heavly damaged or B) few feet under. Did i mention c4 ?

    Damage. While the nc do have high alpha damage the ttk in cqc is rather small 0.3 secs to down someoene as tr or vs. But when range increases ttk for nc max get highger and higher by a great margin.

    You got great points mate but it doesn't matter. Nc have asked the devs to give us some kind of small clipped gauss rifle so we dont' camp corners. Still no recognisition from the devs that shotguns aren't that good.

    Faction specific abilities. Shield is the buggiest of the abilities and i find it mind bogling why to use it except when dueling agaunts aircraft as aa. Shield can bug your weapons to do 0 dmg, leaks splash damage, is directional, you still take a lot of dmg from c4 and traps.

    P.s. Atleast we are getting a shotgun with underbarrel shotgun that shoots shotguns :mad:
  9. Phyr

    The problem with shotguns on a MAX, is that only 1 faction gets them, while not having a very effective ranged (30-40m) option. We have NS versions of every other weapon, but MAX only has 1 NS weapon.
  10. Ronin Oni

    This happens with all factions. It has nothing to do with shotgun MAX, and more to do with reducing exposure time by poppoing in and out of doorways. MAXes do this, Heavies do this. EVERYONE does this.
    Ask ANY VS and I'm sure they'd love to trade ZOE for Shield.

    I do prefer Lockdown the most of all 3 ES MAX abilities though.
    Again, this goes for all MAXes. All AI guns are terrible accuracy. Swap out to your cheap AV guns for AI work beyond 50m.

    Past about 100m MAXes have nothing but luck to get Inf kills with. (Or stationary enemies who wait the full 2.5 seconds for your slow AV rounds to travel from you to them)
    Slugs are as close as you'll get to "Gauss". You won't get super accurate AI guns, nobody gets them. On the other hand NC has the absolute best point blank shutdown weapons. They're amazing for point defense
    • Up x 1
  11. ajma

    You mean the charge ability, right? Activating ZOE will only get you killed and locking down to the ground is not precisely "aggressive".
    • Up x 2
  12. Kalivix


    The difference is though you get instagibbed by ALL AI MAX weapons up close, the only real difference between the AI MAX guns is the NC MAX has no range so we can kill enemy MAXs a bit faster but in exchange have a 10m range
    • Up x 1
  13. Ronin Oni

    They'd need to make NS shotguns as well as NS machine guns then, and then where's the faction flavor?

    NC like to point out they have inferior range because of this.

    Sure... from like 15-40m.

    Past 40m all MAXes AI guns are crap.

    NC trade shooting across a courtyard for the best room and point defense. Trust me when I say that VS and TR both hate charging a point guarded by NC MAXes more than anything else.

    Against TR and VS you can peekaboo RPG. Against NC they'll insta-kill you before the rocket hits (which then hilariously fizzles).

    Course... then there's Conc's :p Oh, but for NC still have the ability to instagib any enemy that runs in front of them, while VS/TR just hit them with a couple rounds (can't really turn/aim when stunned, but can still shoot in the direction you were aiming before)
  14. gigastar

    You may want to read that a few times and remember about the pieces of junk TR and VS MAXs have to use.

    Its one thing to say that the shield isnt up to snuff (it never really was) but its a whole other thing to claim that Lockdown is supposed to be used for an "aggressive playstyle"
    • Up x 1
  15. Ronin Oni

    Yeah, lockdown is the epitome of Defense.

    NEVER frontline as lockdown. You're BEHIND friendly Infantry laying down some serious firepower into a restricted area in front of you to prevent too many enemies from being able to engage you at once.

    Works great with pounders. ALso works great with Fractures/Bursters when used properly in the field to increase RoF. AI guns not as much but it has uses.
  16. Goretzu

    Well if you call a 0.3 second TTK difference (non-LD) "amazing" anyway (and want to spend a much higher % of your time reloading).
  17. Kalivix


    Er.... no its like more 10-20m, 20 being the point where its almost pointless to shoot, if you are a idiot and use slugs you can shoot further but you need mattocks and even then its not worth it, the only time slugs are useful without the ability to ADS is when you already have a MAX and have ended up at a fight with no possible option for short range fighting. In those situations slugs are still awful but they are less awful than never hitting ever
  18. Springjack

    I feel like a black sheep, having the patience to only cert into dual falcons. And I LIKE my AV capabilities, sniping people, and max punching those who get close (and choose to circle me instead of shooting me in the head - which is a nice change).

    The best thing in terms of adaptability is going for AI maxes is their close range (TO THE EQUIPMENT TERMINAL)! I just stick with falcons because I have adopted that play-style, and thanks to the persona that NC MAXes can't shoot at range I get more opportunities on people.
  19. Navinor

    I would not say the NC Max is that bad at the moment.

    Look, all the Maxes have their pros and cons at the moment.

    TR Max: In my opinion it is NOT an agressive MAX. It has an ability to "dig in" so you can fire faster. But this ability is not that great when you look on it in the heat of battle. Players are very good now, especially on taking out maxes. So the most important thing is to stay mobile with a max. I nearly NEVER "dig in" my TR max, because otherwise i will get insta shot by a rocket launcher. I do not have a shield which can take damage, (even it is maybe not THAT great).

    On cobalt you have nearly no TR commanders which are using "Max crash" as an effective tactic, because of the enemy ability to kill the maxes very fast.

    VS Max: In my opinion the "badest" of all 3 maxes. I played on the vanu side with it pre ZOE nerf and after and now it is really a weak max compared to the both others. ZOE is only good to kill yourself at the moment in close combat. They have rapid fire laser guns, but this guns are not very acurate and neither strong in mid combat nor in long range combat. Of course they kill in close combat, but not that good as the shot gun NC maxes. VS max krash is very easy to stop, because of this guns.

    The best about the VS max is its AT capibility. In my opinion the best combined with ZOE.

    The NC max: On Cobalt the NC has some very good outfits and they do LOTS of maxcrashes with the NC max. Normally the tactic is to let go 2 or maybe even 4 maxes forward with shield and you KNOW they will die because of c 4 and heavy fire. But the rest of the maxes with shotguns can whipe out a room within seconds. 1 shot, one dead. The NC max crashes are feared by both TR and VS. It is just hardcore to stop this killing machines in close combat.

    And by holding ground they are not that bad. VS and TR maxes die very fast, when get rocket spammed, but the NC can put at least their shield out.
  20. TheBlindFreak

    As an NC max user, I'm just going to drop my 2 cents here. Take it as you will.

    NC AI maxes have a couple problems:

    First is the most obvious. The range. We've been stuck with this since launch. We used to be able to near instagib enemy maxes, but that got nerfed and dps's got normalized. So now we have a negligible advantage in the point blank range. For a nearly nonexistent advantage in close range (which doesn't matter because even with ext mags, kinetic armor will force you to make an extra reload, even with all pellets on target), we trade ALL ranged ability. "But it's totally ok NC ^_^ you can g'imp your CQC ability and use slugs! It's like a slightly gimped long range option!" Now, don't get me wrong, before I abandoned using the AI weapons, I would only use slugs. The only problem I have is that they aren't the superior ranged option despite being difficult to use in CQC.

    Now, the second problem is the cert investment required to be viable. Extended mags is A MUST. You're going to be screwed in a lot of situations without it. Slugs, which I maintain is better than buckshot, is an even higher cert cost. And that just puts us on "par" with stock VS and TR max units.

    I've abandoned my AI max. I really only use it for AA and AV now. Because Falcon's own hard. They aren't what they once were, but they are pretty balanced and useful. And they are decent for AI use. And it definitely pays to bring them to an infantry fight when there are enemy maxes around.