Why ESFs are Despised, and Always will be

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Eclipson, Jan 19, 2014.

  1. icor1031

    OP:

    You reversed the usage of "to" and "too."
  2. Dead soldier

    my score/minute will probably rise b/c i mainly go after aircraft. And with my tank, aircraft never mess with my AP lightning, all they do is call me a hacker :)
  3. IamDH

    Before i start addressing all these points, these weapons are deterrence weapons. If you want to kill get a skyguard. Your problem is air, you have multiple options to address that issue. Only ONE person out of the major meatgrinder has to switch his MAX to AA to remove all enemy air in his zone. If your issue is air then you should pull AA, they wont exactly drop dead when you clap your hands. Despite all these weapons being deterrence weapons, when played smartly they can kill pilots (like burster MAX)

    1- Yes. Your goal is to remove air from the zone not obliterate any enemy ESF in your line of sight. If you see a good pilot dogfighting im pretty sure you can kill him (or at least aid in his death).

    2- There are other points. The ones you just commented on

    And rightly so. The person piloting that ESF has spent dedicated hours and certs just to be able to survive up there. You still fail to realize that this weapon is supposed to deter and not kill. The equation is more than 2000>1000 therefore unbalanced. I believe if you wait till he gets close enough (or in hover mode) you might actually get a kill. Either way, you got rid of air which is the whole point

    I was referring to lock-ons actually. Yet again it is a deterrence weapon before you start arguing how it doesnt kill anyone


    Skyguard might not be the funnest thing but its definitely effective. Skyguard WILL get you kills
    • Up x 2
  4. Bortasz


    So I was right. To fight ESF I have stop be a soldier and become security in the maul. I do not fight crime, I deterrence them. Witch is boring. For 800 certs I can hav 2 Tank mines on engineer and 2 C4 on light assault and become scourge of ground vehicles. I blow up tanks, infantry and MAXes witch BR 100. But in the moment that one ESF show up I have to stop having fun and start become a security man. THIS IS ********. Tankers, MAX pilots and infantry spend the same time and dedication to become good. And I not only can fight them and sometimes win, even when I was low BR, but also I NEVER feel that they have unfair advantage over me.

    Also sorry but my C4 can kill everything on the ground. You want me to buy dedicated 1000 certs cannon for lighting, upgrade that lighting to fight air enemies and nothing else? This is bad game design.

    I also upgrade my moskit, buy rotary and tomcat to fight thous bastards in the sky. But guess what. This is impossible. Even witch new changes new players are dead meet in the sky. Aces will not fight them. They will butcher them. The only times I get kill witch high BR is when they where wounded by ground forces. In the moment this become duel I'm dead. And this not happen witch ground fights. I never feel that I have zero chance to take anybody in the ground duel. Even BR 100 in ZOE.

    PS. also about new changes. Tomcats are BS new also. Good players will newer lose lock so for them killing you is: Rocket, 4 second, Rocket, 4 second, rocket. = 10 second and you dead. Of course if they wish to wait so long. Witch rotary they will shoot me down even faster.
    And don't even dear suggesting they I buy Coyotes ore locust. I don't know who decide that weapons for new players, who want learn to flight cost 1000 certs each, instead make them default weapons but he is:
    [IMG]
    of marketing.
  5. kirinohana

    So I have just been touring the new Amerish and Hossin on the PTS. I do think the changes will help with some separation of Air/Armor/Inf. I personally believe each style (Air, Armor, Inf) should have its specialized area and the cross overs is where you would have your combined arms. It has also led me to thinking about a 2 part solution that does not nerf ESF's as they are now.

    Part one would be the redesign of bases and landscape, adding more cover/terrain/trees. How this helps is it lowers maneuverability and slows the Air down, it also lowers the visibility, which is a huge help for infantry, evening the playing field without having to punish current play styles. In fact it would just add challenge for air. They seem to already be doing this with Hossin and Amerish with tree cover, overhangs and so on and I like that.

    The second part of the solution would be more AA and more varied AA. So most classes of infantry have AV (C4, AT mines, AV turrets, Rockets and so on) these also have the benefit of being decent anti infantry in most cases. So lets add AA to each class that is also effective in some way for infantry. This lets people who do AA duty to still be effective in battles, lets it be a bit more fun, and justifies the costs of AA (both time and certs/resources). The Walker would be a good example of this, decent AA and decent AI. I am not suggesting more lock-ons, it could be as simple as different ammo (flack or armor piercing) for current guns, but the more creative/interesting the better as far as I'm concerned.

    I think these together would even the play field a bit and remove some of that helplessness felt by Inf vs Air. I would also like to add, please make default some acceptable AA/AV to new players. Letting them get farmed will only frustrate them and cause them to often leave which is good for no one.
  6. sucoon

    first, good pilots don't use a2a lockons after the patch, they take you out more effectiv whit the nose gun. geting good in the air cost a lot of certs, a lot of recources and a lot of frustration. when i play infantry or tank, i often see the noob pilots, buyed thier lolpods, coming in huge crowds and trying to lolpod everythink. hovering over a area and noone doing anything about them.
    i have 95% the time the nemesis equipped as heavy because its usefull against all. every 3 shoot is a kill or kill assist. if there are to much noobs i the air or a lib i got in my certed max and take them out. with my double burster and certet magacin i can take out a esf easy.

    hmm, i experimented with nvidia shadowplay. i took a video (i don't do any work on the video from shadowplay), when our outfit-squad on esamir drived with a sunder and get raided by a mosy squad. they dont had any fun with us!
    the vid isn't for commercial, not for sharing, it was only a test.

    don't know, how to include video at a special point. the intresting part is at 7min and behind!

    also when i fly by myself, i sometimes get in anti-air quads, which are laming at the enemy warpgate. you fly out of the warpgate-shild and get surprisely lamed by 3-4 doubleburster maxes + logons in 1-2s without any chance of reaction.

    we also have good skyguard drivers in our squad. making more point on double xp than everybody als. the taking out infantry, air, vehicles and also mbt.

    playing anti air can be fun! i also think, we need a re-change staion for vehicles, so we can change the config of our vehicles like the weapons of our max without loosing resources. this will help a lot.
  7. Yasa


    Theres no sides. Everyone can spawn a flying vehicle, and everyone can be any class. Biggest non-issue I've seen on this forums. Its like those people who say heavies are OP. Everyone can be a heavy.
  8. Admiralty


    You've made some really good points here but in my eyes, it all comes down to the player to make the effort to learn how to dogfight.

    You've talked about how inaccessible it was for new players to get into the air game and while that's true, the only part that's most unique to PS2 is the hover mechanics/ reverse maneuver. Can't the same be said for everyone in the air right now? I mean at some point in their PS2 'career', we've all had to learn this mechanic either through watching videos on Youtube, or through other players instructing you.

    What I'm getting at here is that the resource (e.g. Youtube) is here for us to use, it's up to the player to make the effort to learn how to fly, more specifically how to reverse thrust because that's probably the most "hidden" nature of flying - there is no specific set of buttons or any form of keybinding that would educate new players on how to actually dogfight which is heavily dependent on reverse thrusting.

    Flying in general isn't the hard part - I first started flying from the days of Battlefield 2 whose controls in both hover and flight mode in jets and helicopters are near identical to those in PS2, learning how to take off, fly and roll around etc. can easily be learnt in the VR - you don't need any instructor or video to teach you. Its the reverse thrust mechanic.

    But the problem still boils down to the playerbase in my opinion. This attitude exists only because players aren't willing to tough it out. How do you think I and many others first started? Sure, I had a background in flying from BF2/2142 but I had to contend with cooldown timers, certing my vehicle out and learning how to reverse thrust just like anyone else and back then, we didn't even have the VR! We used the WG instead!

    The resources are here to be utilised, theres even a full video on how to fly on the main PS2 website: https://www.planetside2.com/game-tutorials. The onus is on the player to make the effort to learn. Just like the thousands of other pilots out there.
    • Up x 1
  9. Nintyuk

    This idea I had almost a year ago and I still think it's usefull idea that would solve todays issues still:
    It recived some possitive acclaim back then but it obviosly was never implemented.
  10. Keiichi25

    Yes, I know I am breaking a cardinal rule about game versus real and all, but note also, most traditional Anti-Air defense also include static or semi-portable Anti-Air weapon systems such as Surface to Air Missile Launchers, and Triple A (Anti Aircraft Artillery) guns. While some of those may seem 'archaic', the simple fact is, those are not 'f-ed' designs, those are also designs used even to this day.

    Incorrect. It's actually 2 bursters. The extended magazines are not necessary to have a chance to destroy an ESF. It will help improve your chances of sustained fire, but being a long time MAX user, 2 Bursters generally allow you to destroy an ESF without reloading, provided the pilots are idiots. A SINGLE burster with extended mag will also give you a chance, again, if the pilot is an idiot, however, a single burster by itself will not accomplish this unless the pilot is not only an idiot, but sufficiently damaged to begin with.

    Also, if you are going to argue this correctly, an ESF with rocketpods will still kill you with 1000 certs while you not only have over 1000 certs put in to having an extended mag on one burster AND flak armor up even 3 or 4 ranks. But in all honesty, the ESF pilot also has to be decent in his rocket spamming.


    A fair deal of this is true... Dumbfire rockets only work well against pilots who are too stupid to know better than to hover in place.

    Liberators with Zephyr or Daltons, even with Rank 4 Flak are almost impossible to down, especially when they can out range Lockon weapons.

    And fighting Air is pretty much not fun, mostly cause you are limited to looking for air or infantry. Engaging in anything else is not a good idea as a Burster MAX user or a Skyguard (Even though I do pot shot other things in a skyguard) However, it is necessary in a fight where you know you are dealing with air units and need to keep the air less spammy.
  11. Hiding in VR

    Thats how I feel about MAXes.

    There are at least 2 classes that can do something about ESFs, and thats before you consider switching to a vehicle.
  12. Erilis


    After reading a lot of this thread it seems to me like while Ground units do have some reliable ways of killing and deterring Air, the best way to fight Air is with Air. So I wouldn't say to you to spend all your certs on Anti-Air stuff if you want to kill air. If you want to be the scourge of the ESFs like you are with the tanks all you need to do (ideally) is grab an ESF yourself in the same way that you would grab your LA with C4 to take care of tanks. BUT what we and the devs seem to all be starting to realize is that ESFs are not an accessible vehicle because they take lots of practice to be effective with.

    I'd say your feelings on how to attack air are valid but only because Air vehicles are difficult to be proficient in.


    I think ESFs are difficult to get the handle of because most gamers have far more experience with being a ground soldier in first person shooters rather than a pilot. So dumbing down ESFs might make it a lot easier for people with a lot less experience with first person flight simulation to get into but would certainly frustrate gamers more experienced in flight simulation. There's really no easy way to please these two parties so my guess is that this issue is going to remain for PS2, just as the OP has predicted.
    I wonder what the actual statistic (%) looks like when comparing FPS gamers familiar with first person ground movement and those familiar with ground and air. My guess is that a large majority of FPS gamers have very little experience with flight simulation. Probably something like this, I donno:
    [IMG]

    That said, I'm beginning to think PS2's problem with air vehicles has nothing to do with balance but with what most players are familiar with.
    • Up x 1
  13. Erilis

    [IMG]
    This isn't my picture but I thought it'd be good for visualization.

    A couple years ago I taught my 25 year old fiance how to play Minecraft. It was the first first-person game she had ever played and it was... cute and grueling watching her trying to figure out how to move :rolleyes:. But she was surprised to find herself really interested in wanting to play Minecraft so she stuck with it. She now can move with WASD like most other gamers out there but you put her into a competitive multiplayer FPS like PS2 and it would probably take months for her to get up to speed with the average FPS player if she even has the patience to stick with it despite getting killed constantly. But we would recognize that not as the other players being too over-powered but her needing to practice something new and different.

    Some of us grew up on the earliest FPS games like Doom, others grew up on multiplayer FPSs like Counter-Strike, but some PS2 players however few may have played very few FPS games. Just in the same way some of us may have grown up playing Microsoft's Flight Simulator or Battlefield, some players may not have had any first-person flight experience. I think a large number of PS2 players probably have very little experience with first-person flight simulation and that's really what we're seeing here.

    So, basically, if you want to play ESF it's just like learning WASD for the first time as an adult, which takes time. And yeah, I think many people don't want to put in the effort to learn it and I don't blame them, especially when they are already MLG pros at ground FPS ;). Eclipson created the thread in an effort to help ESF players understand ground infantry, but this is where the ground players need to understand air players. I don't think ESFs are OP, these pilots have just taken the time to learn it. And there's nothing wrong with not learning it as long as it's understood.
    • Up x 3
  14. Nintyuk

    I Can Fly ESF pretty well, But flying is only part of it. Being able to fight in a ESF epecially when it also requires skills that go beyond simply being able to move an aircraft around terrain and pick targets is a extreamly different thing. Basic ESF Flying isn't too hard to pickup but that won't get you anywere against most Pilots.
    • Up x 1
  15. Erilis

    There's definitely a learning curve to picking targets in ESFs in PS2, just like there is when sniping in PS2 or fighting in a tank, etc.
  16. Vanus Aran

    The worst part is that there was all kinds of Infantry on the roofs inside the Biolab's back then.
    Even grown man cried like little infants when they remember this tormenting memory.

    What is an ESF compared to that?
  17. DeadliestMoon

    Umm, learning how to fly and fight in an ESF is slightly harder than learning to use WASD for the first time. I should know, I started out on consoles and PS2 is the first FPS I've ever played on my laptop.

    Also, you can't compare PS2 to Minecraft. You just can't.
    • Up x 1
  18. NovaAustralis

    1. What the OP said.

    2. This:
    3. and this:
    • Up x 1
  19. Erilis

    That's my point silly!
    I
    V

    Learning WASD without any prior experience is difficult, learning competitive play with WASD is even more difficult, and learning aerial combat with WASD is exceedingly difficult!

    I can compare whatever I want, and I'm saying that PS2 is tons more difficult than Minecraft.
  20. Pootisman

    100% agree to OP, but he forgot one important fact: The stock ESFs are crap, just free kills for the good pilots. You need to invest several thousand CERT in a ESF to be on a competitive basis. For newer players, there are a lot of other things that need CERTs more urgently than aircraft.
    • Up x 1