Why does DBG allows NC's terrible low win rate?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Humoreske, Oct 14, 2017.

  1. Rydenan

    That's only the theoretical TTK advantage, where all shots hit. The more misses you add, the greater the TTK advantage the 143/750 weapons have. And most players miss. A lot. In fact, the average player misses 75% of their shots.

    Not to mention that faster TTK is not the only reason the 143/750 damage model is superior to the 167/600. These LMGs also have the recoil / bloom / RoF / hipfire advantage. The point is that TTK is just another category that the 143/750 weapons are superior in.

    Ah yes, the 'Git Gud' argument. Classic.
    Well, since you brought it up, your HSR for the NS-11c and AC-X11 are 20.7% and 32.5%, respectively. Now, I use ARs instead of carbines, but with the NS-11a and Reaper DMR, I have 39.5% and 46.2%, respectively.
    So please don't try to stat shame me. I know a thing or two about how headshots work.
    You may think you're chaining a bunch of headshots, but try Shadowplaying your engagements. I can almost guarantee you aren't.


    As I've already mentioned, the better TTK is just one of the many advantages offered by the 143/750 guns. And in a scenario with two equally-skilled players, the player with the 143/750 weapon will win, mathematically. The 167 weapons are not more accurate. They suffer from harsher recoil and more CoF bloom. Not to mention that lower RoF is a disadvantage on its own in close- and medium-range combat.
    • Up x 3
  2. adamts01




    I only mentioned that the Vanguard has the edge in tank vs tank combat, and I agree that it's the weakest when situations aren't 1v1. Your dps charts make sense, but that shield still let the Vanguard win every duel. Most of my experience was with the old shield though, so I admit I'm out of the loop. It could be that the nerf was too much. Truth be told, the new alert system has me playing other games these days. When other factions are over-pop there's nothing my faction can do, and when my faction is doing well I can't even log in to play because it's been swarmed by 4th factionersm making the game quite literally unplayable.
    • Up x 1
  3. The Shady Engineer

    You're looking at a wrong account since I never unlocked the NS 11C on either my TR or my NC. >45% HSR on your Reaper puts you in what, top 1% of players for that weapon? And you don't think more accurate higher damaging weapons reward headshots more? I don't know what to tell ya, man.

    167 have higher vertical but significantly lower horizontal. One can be compensated for, the other can't. They have higher bloom per shot but lower bloom per second if you factor in RoF. Besides, with HSR like yours I suppose you know holding down the trigger is not recommended anyway and bursting is the way to go.

    Lower RoF is a disadvantage though. Can't argue with that. Punishes misses more harshly. But at least when I lose gunfights on my NC I can see where I went wrong aim-wise instead of "well, my dot was right on that guy's head but mrs. Jaguar felt like bouncing all over the place instead."
  4. LordKrelas

    Actually, I play all three. I'm biased against aircraft however.
    I do know, that the Liberator has the easy time against an MBT, while solo.
    Nothing but Aircraft can solo down two-man vehicles that easily - Even Harassers lose a lot trying to be solo.
    Liberator? Still effective.
    ESF? When does an ESF pilot need to actually talk to someone?
    It never is, the pilot asking for ground support, or that it needs the AA dead.
    It's silent.
    Yet on the other side, the same pilot expects entire squads & tanks to coordinate to focus on 1 man.

    You talking about the damage nerf from more than months ago, or something else.
    As if it did regain the damage, Pilots still wouldn't be complaining that Hornets don't have a purpose.


    [ I had a **** ton of words here]

    Edit;
    You know what, I'll summarize this, and remove the mile of words.
    Liberator's firepower for A2G should be the belly gun.
    Rear for proper AA defense. (Which means, the rear needs love, as sweet jesus...)
    Given how aiming that nose-gun down ruins most angles for the Belly, and promotes the solo libbing...
    Make The Liberator not a massacring flying tank while solo... let that be the Gunner's bloody job.

    And for Vanguards... Why in blazes does NC's tank deal less damage than TR's?
    While reloading the slowest?
    Shield? Against the most agile tank, and the Artillery tank that fires faster than hell.
    Makes the tank incredibly defensive in nature, and with the reload issue, let alone paired with less damage.
    Exposure to the enemy is longer, making the shield needed to just unload the required damage.

    The Old shield, could be eaten by prowlers inside of 6 seconds.
    At least the new shield lasts longer.
    Just the longest repair times, make the recovery period after such shield use take longer.
    Keeping Vanguards damaged for longer, and away from full strength & shield strength for longer.

    Best tank in a 1v1, assuming nothing even sneezes on it afterwards.
    As well, it will be in the most vulnerable state after this for the longest;
    Lacking shield, and needing the most time just to recover.
    With the shield also being tied to health, since it's a damage resistance booster... means the shield is less effective during this time as well.

    Attrition hits NC's armor division like a truck.
    And that's against the most hit & run , to long-ranged tanks.
    VS can easily engage & disengage.
    TR, with the fastest base speed & incredible damage output, makes attrition easy.

    -- yes, I also brought my post off my distaste for libs, back onto actual NC problems.
    • Up x 1
  5. adamts01

    You're getting the orange text if you keep this up.
  6. freeAmerish

    3/4 Headshots TTK........6/8 shots TTK...............9/12 shots TTK.............12/16 shots TTK
    167x600 = 0.2sec..........167x600 = 0.5sec.........167x600 = 0.8sec.........167x600 = 1.1sec.
    143x750 = 0.24sec........143x750 = 0.56sec.......143x750 = 0.88sec.......143x750 = 1.2sec.

    Where is the advantage for 750rpm?
    • Up x 1
  7. Campagne

    In the single shot both miss, leveling the TTK in favor of the 750RPM. Amplified ever higher as more shots miss.
    • Up x 1
  8. Lamat

    Thus as the higher ROF is more forgiving of misses, lower ROF needs very high accuracy as a complimentary trait
    • Up x 3
  9. LaLaBear

    That's really all I was getting at. While it used to be the top in a 1v1 before the update, the current status is that a fully maxed vanguard "could" win against a prowler by a single shot, but ONLY if the prowler takes nothing in their utility slot. In which case you might as well be comparing stock tanks where a vanguard loses by 5s to a prowler in a head on 1v1.

    For VS TTK the Magrider can make a kill in 29.3s while the vanguard takes only 21.6s. An approximate 6s increase in survivabilty looks okay until you realize the Magrider (or any vehicle) can duck behind cover or boost away before it engages while the shield runs out and it's back to a 23.4s TTK.. In the past, an intelligent tank drive wouldn't use the shield right away unless there was a good reason to. But now because it's a damage reduction AND the vanguard has such low DPS compared to other MBTs, you simply can't wait. Forcing the Vanguard to use the shield up front instead of strategically saving it for an emergency is one of the biggest flaws.

    So looking at front damage values alone it may have looked like an okay idea based on the old armor system. But there are too many new factors in the update that make it worse than garbage.
    • Up x 3
  10. Rydenan

    Ah, my bad.
    Top 0.025%, actually.
    What does my personal accuracy have to do with whether or not the gun is rewarding to headshots?
    Scoring headshots with a 200/500 is "rewarding" only in that it gives you a slightly less disadvantaged TTK. Still disadvantaged, though.
    This is true. But inside of close-medium combat ranges (where most fights in PS2 occur), the arc of a horizontal kick (or even multiple) is not large enough to throw your aim off-target.
    The bloom per damage is roughly the same, but the 143/750 guns have higher DPS, so the bloom per second is technically higher.
    However, this bloom affects the low-RoF guns more negatively for two reasons:
    1. Due to lower RoF, fewer shots are fired while in the bloom "sweet spot" at the beginning of a burst
    2. When the CoF blooms out, higher RoF guns fill the cone of fire with a more consistent spread of bullets, making the shooter more likely to consistently score damage. (An Orion might fire 3 rounds, hitting 1, totaling 143 damage. At the same time, a SAW could fire 2 rounds, both of which miss, totaling 0 damage.)


    I have a few shadowplays of myself (mostly with the SAW) firing with the crosshair dead on a guy no more than 20m away, where nearly all of the bullets just fly around him because RNGesus didn't smile upon me. I'll have to see if I can dig one up.
    • Up x 1
  11. freeAmerish

    I showed in my example if you miss 2, 3, 4 times more than the ideal TTK. So it was the same factor/multiplier for both DMG types.

    Now the argument, missing with 600x167 is more punishing than 750x143, or something like that. Yes, if you miss the same number of bullets on a target, it´s having a bigger impact on 600x167.
    But let´s look how big the difference is.

    3/4 Headshot TTK.............5/6 shots TTK................7/8 shots TTK..............9/10 shots TTK
    600x167 = 0.2sec..............600x167 = 0.4 sec.........600x167 = 0.6sec.......600x167 = 0.8sec.
    750x143 = 0.24sec............750x143 = 0.4sec..........750x143 =0.56sec......750x143 =0.72sec.

    After 6 shots missed the difference is 8 hundredths of a second. So, Higby needs to fix immediately...
  12. Rydenan

    Where are you getting these numbers?
    12 shots @ 167 = 2004 damage, while 16 shots @ 143 = 2288 damage. These are not equivalent shots-to-kill figures.
  13. freeAmerish

    The missing ones are included.
    12 shots @ 167 means you fired 12 rounds but only 3 hit...
  14. Rydenan

    167/600 damage TTK with avg. player accuracy: 2.30s
    143/750 damage TTK with avg. player accuracy: 2.16s
    That's 0.14s difference, on top of the other advantages the 143/750 platform offers.
    Not only is missing with a 167/600 gun more punishing, but see my previous reply about how a low-RoF guns do a poorer job of applying consistent damage because they fill the cone of fire with fewer, higher-damage shots. The Tengu has the same damage model as the SAW, but its far, far more effective in CQC because it fills the CoF with 4x as many shots.
    • Up x 3
  15. Lamat

    Careful, devs are probably already working on changing the Gauss SAW to a shotgun LMG now. :p
    • Up x 3
  16. Rydenan

    Honestly, ditch the AP mode and give the GODSAW a Tengu-like CQC mode and I would be a seriously happy camper.
    • Up x 1
  17. freeAmerish

    From where is this? What accuracy in % is used?
    You noticed the example was about headshots...

    Indeed 6.48% longer TTK... keep the rest.
  18. Campagne

    Yeah the difference doesn't seem super great on paper. However, consider the last time you killed an opponent in ~0.5 seconds with bodyshots in a direct 1v1 fight where both parties were ADADancing. I reckon it doesn't reflect typical gameplay much.

    If everyone stood still high damage weapons would be flat better in almost all scenarios, but no one without a sniper rifle stands still for any length of time when fighting. As is, high RoF weapons are generally better at dealing damage outside of perfect stealth. Both player skill and terrible server latency increase the shots to kill in almost every engagement. Factor in range, bloom RNG, and other factors like nanoweave and screenshake and there should be no surprise when the differences in realistic TTK increase.
    • Up x 6
  19. Killer Medic

    Proves the point that VS needs a *massive* nerf. However, being that it's been known for 5 yrs they've needed one and none has come, no one is holding their breath for it. Hell, if they did, they'd've died of asphyxiation by now.
  20. TooFewSecrets

    Didn't go down when I started using NS weapons, either. I think NC is just bad.

    Thanks for pouncing on the nerf wagon, though.