We got the short end of the stick if you ask me. extended mags gets us as big a mag as our carbines, not +5 like other factions compared to their carbines Horribly ammo inefficent, less kills per mag/total than the cyclone or any carbine (I think the same as vanu SMG) longer reload for 5 more bullets (instead of 10 like carbines) we already have the ADS movement bonus on our cqc carbines Seriously, the Armistice or whatever is just a lynx with adv laser dot and slightly lower recoil which would help at range, only it sucks something fierce at range regardless. Also it's damage goes perfectly into its minimum STK (8) so if you suffer even the slightest bit of damage drop on just one shot expect that to be 9 Cyclone may not have the fire rate of the GD, but the recoil on that thing effects you even within SMG range, so the lower recoil on the cyclone does indeed prove useful. The reload is insanely fast for a short, which is very possible to get what with the 167 damage, the lower fire rate to reduce off target waste, and the bigger mag than your carbines, and unless you go soft point/silencer you can still do at least some damage at range. Some or more may like the GD better, but the cyclone is at least a competitor, the armistice sits in the shadow the lynx casts in the corner of the room looking down and crying. now if only the cyclone looked like the armistice instead of something I bought from lowes...
They say it because of flinching, which I think is rubbish. I firmly believe the NC SMG is the best deal, and at the very least it has the shortest TTK. But the TR one is a very close second place. The VS SMG just loses in every possible way.
Basically it is the usual flinch argument. While I agree it doesnt hold in all debates, it does hold some value. People will always say one weapon is better than others based on the three main characteristics, TTK, fire rate, accuracy. Some will pile on the TTK wagon, others the fire rate. Both hold more than a little salt, cant just throw out one. In my opinion TTK wins the day HOWEVER if a fire rate or accuracy weapon breaks its chain, everything goes down the tubes. Not to meantion fire rate weapons absolutely tear apart infiltrators So both win. VS weapons im truly indifferent on, but Im just bitter.
The flinch issue. The flinch issue is real and hurts many guns(Ac-X11 and Razor for instance) but honestly Im not sure its really a big issue here. That said I havent went against many TR sub machine guns yet.
Ehm, doesn't the TR SMG start with 30 bullets? Or am I mistaken? Anyway, while flinching is an issue normally at range, with the SMG's they don't get effected by flinching in the same manor cause of the engagement distance anyway. But imo they're ranked like this. NC most damage TR highest RoF Vs... Average?
Most of the SMGs are more or less on par, but the TR one does have a slightly higher TTK, DPS, least amount of recoil, and better ROF, so even with the lower damage it doesn't matter a whole lot, and even the 5 extra rounds can make up the difference. The fact the CoF doesn't really budge when moving can definitely give it an advantage at close range and with such a high rate of fire, the recoil is surprisingly smooth to compensate for. Kind of like that episode of mythbusters where they put square tires on a car, and when they got them spinning fast enough the ride actually smoothed out... you know, before the axel broke. I think this gives the Armistice a surprising amout of versitility for if you should need to make a longer range shot, whereas my cyclone kicks a little too much to make that accurately. I also I've seen this with an advanced laser sight capable of easily getting hip-fire headshots. I like the NC version just fine, I main NC so I'm used to the CoF growth that comes with any weapon with 167 damage or higher, coupled always with NC's 'maybe-a-little-too-much' recoil. But in the end it works. I just lament the lack of forward grip, it being one of the most helpful attachments to NC due too our recoil problems if one wants to engage in any kind of ranged combat, but at the end of the day it can still get the job done. And hey, don't knock the looks on the cyclone, it looks awsome. Then again I can imagine it does look weird when you're used to staring weapons that look like some bizzare hybrid device made out of Legos and old chrome 1950's style toasters.
I'm pretty sure the SMGs exist for two related reasons: 1) CQ for infiltrators 2) A freebie Advanced Laser CQ weapon for when those infils cross-class. The existing CQ Carbines/ARs are as good or better than the SMGs so it's meaningless to Engi/LA. ARs are better still and LMGs are so swiss-army that maybe you could use the SMG (I know a HA who goes mostly shotgun) but you'd be trading away a lot. However, if someone put points into the long range Carbines and ARs and picked this up for their Infil then they get a great way to save on certs/smedbux. Re OP: Chutes and ladders. Past 10m there is a TTK advantage but it's minor and still worse than carbines. There's other trade-offs (projectile velocity, drop, etc) that make it a wash.
TR SMG has the highest DPS, least recoil and more ammunition. But then these are the usual clutch features for TR weapons, at least the reload time is a tiebreaker for it, so I would say it's on par with the NC smg VS SMG seems to have some CoF probelms which I'm sure will be fixed in the next hotfix
Poking at the SMG stats gives some interesting derived values. Bloom/sec VS 0.63 NC 0.65 TR 0.75 Dmg/sec TR 1867 NC 1814 VS 1788 recoil/sec TR 2.24 NC 2.39 VS 2.5 Dmg/clip NC 4175 TR 3750 VS 3575 Dmg/clip (extended mag) NC 5845 VS 5005 TR 5000 First shot recoil TR 0.30 VS 0.40 NC 0.50 Time to empty clip VS 2s TR 2.01s NC 2.3s Time to empty clip (extended mag) TR 2.68s VS 2.8s NC 3.22s For a minor boost in DPS over the NC version TR suffers a heavy bloom penalty over it due to the absurdly high ROF. Furthermore they show the least improvement in performance with the extended clip, while the NC shows the greatest improvement. TR has the lowest recoil though. However, it can be argued that recoil is less important than COF due to user skill playing a factor in recoil management and not at all to COF (besides burst management, but that skews DPS). For TR I would consider the advanced laser sight to reduce starting COF in order to offset the bloom penalty. For NC I would consider the extended mag to take advantage of the greater benefit. For VS it's a toss up, though I lean toward the extended mag. As for which sides' is better, I withhold judgement, though I find it odd VS has the most recoil per second, and an only mildly better bloom per second than the NC version, while having less DPS than TR or NC. I doubt it's enough of a difference to make the VS version blatantly worse, but still, very strange on the part of the developers. Edit: Hello again, I've been screwing with the spreadsheet numbers, and I feel obliged to expand my stat findings. Not much new, but hey. Max COF at empty VS: 1.65 TR: 1.80 NC: 1.80 Max COF at empty (extended mag) VS: 2.15 TR: 2.30 NC: 2.40
That CoF did strike me a bit odd looking at the spreadsheet, since the three guns follow an otherwise fairly identical progression (trading RoF for damage) with most other things being equal, then you get the "average" Vanu coming up with higher CoF than the guns on both sides of it. Oh well. I did pick up the Eridani, mainly for Infil and it's absolutely gorgeous looks (smedbucks for vanity, fair trade) but tried it a bit as LA. It's a bit of a toss up between it and my VX6-7, the main differences being the noticeably lower recoil (though it has similar pull as the VX so I was off to a running start getting used to it), lower reload time and worse hipfire accuracy due to attachments (adv. laser for the VX and ext. magazine for the Eridani). Situational differences really, it's absolutely not a bad gun for LA, but I wouldn't really say it's worth getting if you nearly only play LA and already have a CQC carbine. Nice work on the numbercrunching, Raital. Was thinking of doing something similar myself but seems you've saved me the trouble. Some curious numbers, indeed.
SMG is a new weapon class that trades a little bit of damage for much better CQC handling. TR is just fortunate enough to already have had CQC carbines with good handling. Having more options does not mean you got the short end of the stick; it's a shame you don't get as much new capability out of your SMG as other empires' Engies/LAs, but you can still use them on other classes.
The idea behind the Empires as laid out since early PS1. They do not always fall 100% in these categories though, but basis is there, just not as Prevalent/Changed in PS2 then what was in PS1, but that’s ok. This list is not just for infantry either. NC - High Dmg, Med Recoil, Low Rate of Fire, Med Accuracy, High Dmg Resist. Added for vehicles - Low movement speed. TR - Low Dmg, High Recoil, High Rate of Fire, Low Accuracy, Med Dmg Resist. Added for vehicles - High movement speed. VC - Med Dmg, Low Recoil, Med Rate of Fire, High Accuracy, Low Dmg Resist. Added for vehicles - Med movement speed. (Due to Strafing ability and low Dmg resist) So the stats basicaly follow the guide lines.
TR already has the best carbines, SMG seems pretty great too has a very fast TTK, but the SMG's seem pretty balanced to me.
Dunno, perhaps cause your weapons in general have sniper rifle accuracy along with high rate of fire ? Just now i was on a mountain side firing on 3 TR for 10 seconds (around 50m distance), landed 3 hits total, one turned around and landed ALL his shots on me.... Just saying, not cool.
Yep, and remember our reason for not getting a 845RPM carbine was because our SMG was going to be so badass! I guess they had to hard balance it, because god ******* forbid TR have something better than the other factions in reality, because the idiots already come up with asinine reasons why our existing weapons are overpowered, when at best they are just a good medium.
I'll trade you my GD for your Lynx. 5% slower RoF is a small price to pay for .75x ADS speed and 10 more bullets. RIP inventory/locker system.
Well in PS1 waas all empire spcific types, But not sure about all PS2 ones. But the un armared Magrider, takes 1 less vanguard shell then Prowler, have not tried Prowler shots in a while, and there was a post by people in beta testing all tanks vs all to see shot per shot, but dont remember thoughs numbers. But since the new patch or coming patch cant remeber at moment, the mag can no longer load front armor. But like I said its the basics to the empires layout since PS1, but these derv's may not follow these 100%, hell they may not even follow any of it if they want, they only just starting to ver back towards what that games play was like But alot of stuff in this game seem to some what fall in these lines.
