Why Are Logistics Being Eradicated Instead Of Embraced?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by MrJengles, May 28, 2014.

  1. MonnyMoony

    The suggestion in post #37 would work very well with my resupply sundy idea.

    Essentially to keep the zerg supplied with ammo - you'd have to keep a supply line open to the nearest large base. Interrupt this supply line by taking out the large base or by attacking the supply line itself would neuter the zerg.

    It may also help limit the size of zergs as some vehicles/infantry will have to hold back to defend the supply line - this would in turn give defenders a better chance.

    A few small changes like this could massively alter the dynamics of the game and turn it from a rolling zerg fest - into a game where strategic decisions have to be made. For example:

    1. Forget your supply line and hit the next base hard and fast with everything you have - hoping to cap it before your ammo runs out.

    2. Keep a constant supply line open at the risk of the defenders being able to fight your assault off due to the fact that some of your forces are committed to defending the supply chain.

    3. A combination of 1 and 2 - whereby you throw most of your forces at the base, but send out small scouting parties defending resupply sundies - hoping they can run the gauntlet to and from the battle to get supplies.

    This would make the game much more interesting - and would give both attackers and defenders multiple options during a fight.
  2. DQCraze

    For whatever reason this game is bent on recruiting new players but not retaining them. This game has been the TDM model why I dont know.
    • Up x 1
  3. MonnyMoony

    Typical big company behaviour - you see it with everything from mobile phones to banking. Gaining new customers always seems to be more important to companies than retaining existing ones.
    • Up x 1
  4. Codex561

    Dont worry! SOE is making new camos and hats!
    • Up x 2
  5. Hicksimus

    Oh thank god I was getting worried that I'd run out of those to buy.

    In a thousand years.

    Edit: Just thought about that, won't even own 5 of them before the heat death of the universe.
  6. dstock

    Reading through this thread, the only conclusion I can come to is that the vocal minority of this community (read: forum posters) are completely undecided on what this game should be from a meta standpoint. If we cannot reach even a simple consensus on which way to go, what makes you think SOE is going to take a pot shot one way or the other and risk driving off a bunch of players? I'm sure they understand that they can't expect more people to play the game if the established players are always leaving (ie, who would the noobs fight?).

    So, if that's not clear enough for you all, what are the pros and cons of the current transport/deploy system, and how can we make it better?
    • Up x 1
  7. UberBonisseur

    The short version ?

    -Redeploying entire platoons at the other side of the map within 15 seconds breaks the game. At the very least, spawn timers should be based on distance. Shortcuts (Squad deploy, Gal spawning, Leader spawning...) have to disappear to prevent an overwhelming force to deploy across the map very quickly.

    -The Zerg must be broken down into several components to be less of an impenetrable ball. How ? Make vehicle spawning deliberate by adding an "acquisition barrier", promote transport between the Frontline and bases, increase the average distance between Hard Spawns...

    -Facilities need a siege mechanic to avoid a complete defensive lockdown.

    I can't take the "New player / Casual" argument seriously; this game needs to hammer "JOIN AN OUTFIT. JOIN AN OUTFIT. JOIN AN OUTFIT", not because I'm an elitist *****, but if you're not in an OUTFIT, you're missing the best part of game entirely. Playing solo is a dumbed down experience.

    If you join the game now and play solo, you'll get **** on over and over and over by people who know the game better than you do. And you'll quit because there is no one to teach you. Not because you had to wait an additional 30 seconds to redeploy somewhere
    • Up x 2
  8. LibertyRevolution

    How can you even say this crap??
    Playing solo is dumbed down? WHAT?

    Playing in an outfit is dumbed down it takes no skill..
    What skill does it take to have 4 gals over a base spamming the spawn with thermal bulldogs.
    While you dump a dozen maxes on the point with engineer/medics to camp every door.
    Yeah lets sit around and wait 4 mins and pile back into the gals after we steamroll this base.
    Then we can do it again at the next one up the line.
    WOOT we so awesome, look guys, we wreckt them scrubs! SMH o_O

    Want to know what skill is?
    Being the one lone wolf defending that base your zerg hord is attacking.
    Being outnumbered 9:1 and pwning the scoreboard for kills/score.
    I'm sure you all pat yourself on the back when you take that base from me, enjoy your 250XP, I made 10,000XP off your zergfit.

    Outfits in this game suck.
    All they do is zerg the lattice lane.
    They wreck any good fight there is on the map by throwing 3+ squads at a 50/50 1-12.
    The squad and platoon leaders are garbage, give poor orders, and just zerg.
    Being in a platoon means that I have 48 people constantly talking causing ducking on my ingame sounds.
    It means I have to fight for kills with 20 other people.
    It means every fight turns into a spawn camp.
    It means there is 4 galaxies hovering above the base, 2 spamming thermal bulldogs, the other 2 are at the flight ceiling out of render.

    I will not be involved in that skillless crap you call outifts, you are all zergs to me.
    You totally made me rage right now bro.. :mad:
    • Up x 1
  9. zaspacer

    Which of those steps do you not like doing? What would you rather be doing?

    What do you really think logistics is going to add differently to your play experience?

    Why are you doing your current list and not other things? Like play other classes/units or join in battles that are not just dominant attackers overwhelming and capping bases.

    It seems like you are blaming the game for your decision to powergame in order to grind the most Certs. You are more driven to farm Certs efficiently than you are to seek out more fun (but less Cert rewarding) gameplay.

    What you want is not logistics. If you had more logistics, you'd just work out a new powergaming way/list to grind Certs in the new system (likely taking more steps for the same process) and be back to the same problem. What you REALLY want is for SOE to change its reward mechanics so it rewards you most for doing gameplay that you find the most fun.
  10. zaspacer

    It is the Organized Squads/Outfits themselves that break the game. Why?:
    1) other players have no good communication/coordination tools
    2) other players lack access to Squad/Outfit only game advantages like Squad Beacons or Certed loadouts
    3) Outfits get special treatment by SOE in game balance because SOE loves games built for bigger a bigger mutually exclusive sub-groups within the same "team"

    If you add extra travel hurdles or delays, it will be a speed bump to Organized Outfits and yet be a wall to non-Outfit players.

    Players Zerg because it is effective at getting results and because it provides safety from being preyed upon by superior units/players in the field (like schools of fish).

    If you want to break up a Zerg you have to start with either:
    1) incentives for players not to Zerg
    2) effective tactics that work better vs. Zergs to discourage Zergs (like the OLD AV MANA TURRET... which was nerfed)

    Requiring transport between bases in the current game would just result in predatory hunting packs picking off non-Organized Outfit players. And the speed and terrain struggles of most forms of transport + non-existent good communication/organizatin tools for non-Outfits would turn travel for non-Organized Outfits into a nightmare.

    What does this even mean?

    Playing Outfit and Solo are both dumbed down experiences.

    An outfit is a FRACTURED SUB-GROUP vs. the ENTIRE FACTION. Imagine if the game added communication and coordination tools so that the ENTIRE FACTION knew what was happening where, who needed what help, and could work together.

    There isn't even a dedicated Air channel where pilots of one Faction on a continent can communicate. Pilots relating which areas are dangerous or ground forces joining the channel to request Air Support in a specific area. You can't type a /whoallscythe and see which Scythes are on the continent and then send them a /tell for support. These kinds of things were STANDARD in even oldschool MMOs, and now we have a huge communication wall in this game.

    You should be able to log in, and immediately join or create which active public/private chat channels you want, that are there to help your ENTIRE FACTION coordinate, find where the needs are, and help support each other.

    Organized Outfits are only more effective than other players beacuse:
    1) they have special powers others don't get like Squad Beacon
    2) they have better communication tools
    3) SOE tunes the game to them
    4) hardcore Outfits have much more stuff Certed out

    SOE hates solo players. SOE hates factions working together. SOE loves fractured, independent, mutually exclusive groups within a faction doing their own thing.
  11. Ronin Oni

    Any system you dream of is either
    a) Prohibitive to casual jump in and play players
    b) Exploitative for outfits who can fast deploy squad leaders anywhere their being attacked and follow with entire platoons using Sqd Ldr spawn.

    There wouldn't be much defense if it wasn't easy to quickly deploy enough forces to a base to match attacker forces... which still leaves us with squad spawn problem.

    I dunno, I want vehicle warfare between bases, which requires logistics, but at the same time I know they need to have a fast action system, and the system actually promotes responsive defense which helps create fights.
  12. doombro

    Stop. Stop using that word. Please. You're making me cringe here.

    This is why the general community has a tendency not to take solo players or lone wolf MLG pubstompers seriously. You completely miss the point and begin talking about things you hardly understand. I can almost smell the cheetos and mountain dew in your post. Please keep this sort of thing contained in xbox live.

    Zergfits are not the only outfits; far from it. The outfit experience is so much more. Have you ever been in an outfit that has less than 50 active players? I am, and I would kill to have enough people online to just have a single fully gunned galaxy up one day. Throwing waypoints and shouting directions isn't hard, but legitimate team play and coordination is both challenging and rewarding. I recommend trying it one day. I assure you as someone who often doesn't have the opportunity to play with his outfit while online, solo play is very dumbed down by comparison.
    • Up x 3
  13. Axehilt

    If only. That would imply classes were loosely balanced, instead of MAXes being dramatically overpowered.
    • Up x 3
  14. UberBonisseur

  15. zaspacer

    Military logistics - the discipline of planning and carrying out the movement and maintenance of military forces.

    Most players in this game do not want to have to deal with logistics, they want to log in and then play.

    The minority of players that wants logistics also wants to force others to use logistics too.

    Best method is for SOE to make 1 continent have "full logistics" (or whatever SOE's vision of that is), and then see if players like it. It would be a major mistake to force all players into a logistics heavy game they don't like, and push more players out of the game.

    (1) teleporting around from fight to fight
    (2) treating each battle like an individual server from your average shooter (that then transitions into the next adjacent battle)

    These are the built in limits of what PS2 currently is. This is also what a lot of the playerbase wants.

    If you want to change this, you'd really have to overhaul a lot of the game's system and build out a lot of tools that just aren't there right now. Because it will not currently support something different without causing the average player to hit a wall.

    In order to do this, it's first best to clarify precisely what types of gameplay you would like to see in PS2. Once we have that ironed out, we can explore how to re-design the game so that:
    (a) the mechanics, balance, and tools support that type of game play
    (b) it is coordinated in a way that is enjoyable to more players

    Keep in mind:
    (1) existing communication and coordination tools in PS2 are terrible. Especially outside an Outfit/Squad level (no dedicated air channel, no /whoallscythe command to then send tells for air support, etc.; players have no idea what each battle looks like, needs, what players are in it, how to talk to them, etc.)
    (2) Infantry and many Vehicles have terribly slow travel time given distances and terrain
    (3) Infantry and many Vehicles are extremely vulnerable to hunting packs of Air or Harasser units (superior mobility, superior firepower, superior numbers, superior coordination)
    (4) players are currently not rewarded for and don't enjoy time not spent in battles, comparable incentives would need to be added
    (5) there is currently no despawn-and-recoup-resources option, so players are typically stuck where they spawn

    Right now (non-Air) people teleport to a battle. See if it's the kind of battle they want and if not teleport to another battle. When they find a battle they want, they then commit their Resources to spawn what they need. If they committed a lot of valuable resources in a Vehicle, they will often stick in a pack to avoid losing that Vehicle to things like Air that can locate and trump them easily.

    How does PS2 strive to be a strategic game currently?

    Aside from some fluff writing from SOE, PS2 has not actually been built with the communication/coordination tools, reward incentives, unit balance, game mechanics, etc. to support being a more strategic game. Even the coordinated events that SOE runs are little more than battles like an individual server from your average shooter.


    The current Resource system promotes unfun in being tied to amount of Faction controlled territory and (like so many things in the game) encourages a single dominant Faction (in the case of resources, at a per Continent level). But the current Resources system is sufficient enough to support fun given workarounds by players.

    If you are saying that the current Resource system does not support a more elaborate system of Logistics, that is another issue. You will have to define why you think so.

    Many players do not find logistics fun. AND, the current game does not have the Communication/Coordination Tools, Reward Incentives, Unit Balance, and Game Mechanics to support logistics coherently. AND, SOE has demonstrated a track record that puts such a feat well beyond their aptitude to attempt to tackle without high likelihood of major train wreck or a complete fizzle.

    SOE does not seem competent to design larger game systems, including Resources. Their new model is a train wreck. Let's explore it...

    In English:
    1) Premeditated Zergs are fine (as they can pull from multiple bases and over time) to setup their force
    2) Defenders are now to be choked out of Resources to spawn the units they need to Defend Zergs
    3) Defenders cannot counter-attack because they are choked out of Resources to spawn a counter-attack force

    NOTE: if they are saying that too many units in one area will cause actual ammunition or gas to run out for Vehicles, then that is a different matter... but that would require gas being added and re-supply Sundies removed, etc. And it would probably anger a lot of people.

    In English:
    1) Premeditated Zergs are fine (as they can pull from multiple bases and over time) to setup their force
    2) Defenders are now to be choked out of Resources to spawn the units they need to Defend Zergs
    3) Defenders cannot counter-attack because they are choked out of Resources to spawn a counter-attack force

    In English:
    1) Premeditated Zergs are fine (as they can pull from multiple bases and over time) to setup their force
    2) Defenders are now to be choked out of Resources to spawn the units they need to Defend Zergs
    3) Defenders cannot counter-attack because they are choked out of Resources to spawn a counter-attack force

    In English:
    1) shoot that guy in front of you at the Vehicle Terminal: he might use up the Resources before you can use them
    2) hey, a bunch of allies just spawned their ESFs at our remote base and flew away: we now have no resources and no units to defend the base; OR hey, a bunch of allies just spawned useless vehicles and there is no more Resources to spawn a Sunderer: we are stuck

    Players will not work together to conserve resources and coordinate to spawn the most effective units. This is not a single person playing a RTS, this is a bunch of random FPS strangers who have no good communication/coordination tools.

    Plus, of course:
    1) Premeditated Zergs are fine (as they can pull from multiple bases and over time) to setup their force
    2) Defenders are now to be choked out of Resources to spawn the units they need to Defend Zergs
    3) Defenders cannot counter-attack because they are choked out of Resources to spawn a counter-attack force

    In English:
    Hey Infiltrator, did you buy your SMG yet? Cause your hacking just got worse... again.

    In English:
    1) all Air are not affected by Resources limts. Only non-pilots are being hosed.

    Was Logistics ever on the Roadmap?

    What? If you're complaining that activating one Base Cap locks out the Base Cap at the adjacent enemy base, that's SOE's doing. That's a newer change that went up with Lattice.

    Current Organized Gameplay includes either:
    1) playing in an SOE special event (battle like an individual server from your average shooter)
    2) playing as an independent sub-group of your faction (Squad or Squad+Outfit) that ignores most the players in its faction and uses its better coordination and communication tools, and special access in-game abilities to storm someplace and overwhelm it cause nobody expected you and they don't have the population or preparation to stop you or communication to call for help, and also the game doesn't reward Defending well so maybe nobody would show anyway
    3) play as a random, one amongst untold billions, for in the grim dark future there is only war


    If the forces are matched and the Defenders are able to coordinate and get ready before the Attackers arrive, then Defenders have the advantage.

    If the attackers prepare and are unplanned for by the Defenders, and then sweep into an area, the Defenders are done.

    Also, which force is bigger factors in. Which force has which units. And what base and part of the map factor in.

    Yes, Defender doesn't have to keep a Sunderer up. But they also typically don't have the momentum of player/unit buildup and front options Attackers have.

    Defenders also don't have the same Reward Incentives to motivate players to attend like Attackers do.

    There is no Reward Incentive to driving around. So players don't wanna do it. They'd rather grind. They don't want to be stuck sitting and waiting in a truck and then riding in a truck for 15 minutes while the XP dries up. And then just dying when they got picked off by some hunter units like a Lib on the way where they were going.

    And if you restrict travel, nobody is gonna be able to get to the bases to defend them either in time. The game would be a TON of Zergs doing ghost capping, cause it takes to long for Defenders to get there. Players would wait in WarpGates until a Zerg Caravan was built up and they'd all leave together. And Air flying around as air taxis or as hunters picking off the players that missed the Zerg and are trying to get to it on their own.

    Is that what you want? Sounds terrible to me. I played WW2 Online forever ago. I did this exact same thing. Got in a truck and sat there while we waited for 5 minutes for people to loaded in, then I rode for 5 minutes to the battlefront, then we got attacked by a trump unit and everyone bailed out, and I was shot dead immediately by something. Then I uninstalled the game and never played it again. It's not enough to just build in Logistical requirements in a game, you have to make it comprehensible and worth your time and engaging and fun.

    No, that's terrible.

    Attacking Zergs don't need the resources because they already have their Zerg spawned. This system just creates a limited system for marshaling Defenders, and one that can be knocked out.

    Players would be forced to wait at the WarpGate until a Caravan was built up, and then they'd limp out onto the Map. Most players would have to play sessions of at least 30 minutes just to wait for the Caravan and then make the journey to a front line. And if their force was wiped out, they'd have to start again at their Warpgate. And man, that level of Griefing opportunity would fuel a LOT of players to setup areas to gank players and send em back to the big wait times.

    Air would dominate the in between. Maybe packs of Skyguards and Harassers. They'd happily hunt down and pick off any straggler not in a Zerg.

    Or maybe it would just be Caravans of that new Air transport and ESFs shuttling people from the WarpGates to the front line... but I expect that would mostly be elitist and exclusionary Outfits since Certing up that kind of Caravan takes a lot of Certs and also being able to fly is for the more hardcore in this game. (FYI, I do fly ESFs)

    I think a test Logistics Continent could be interesting. But in general I think it would be an unfun nightmare that would highlight PS2's lack of tool and unbalanced units, and drive players away.

    Ok, so your system keeps the teleporters. So it does avoid the Caravan and Hunting Pack problems in a system without teleporters.

    I think the average Infantry player would just look for the battle with the lowest time to teleport to, then teleport there. Joining the Zerg if they could.

    I think the average ground Vehicle player would wait at a WarpGate for a Zerg Caravan to form up, and then roll with them.

    I think Outfits would get some guys to target via ESF, then have each make a 2-man Squad and Beacon guys in. Then have them Split and reform in more 2-man Squads to get more in, etc.

    You'd have smaller Infantry battles... which would attract Libs to farm them. You'd have Outfits attacking targets that don't have any population. And you'd have Vehicle Zerg Caravans.

    Most players don't want logistics (they want to just log in and play). The game would have to be massively overhauled (communication/coordination tools, unit balance, reward incentives, mechanics) to support logistics in a playable and not unfun way. Best method to try adding logistics is to make 1 continent have "full logistics" and then see if players like it.
    • Up x 1
  16. NC supporter

    There is no point to even discuss in this thread. None of these suggestions either bad or good won't be listened to. Would SOE listen to just 20 people who barely represent the player base as a whole? I mean the only reason these devs are working on this game is because they get paid. If we told them to work on this without pay then guess how many would even stay. Unless you guys have a wad of cash, there is no chance of them listening to this pointless discussion. How the buisness and companies work.
  17. doombro

    [citation needed]
  18. zaspacer

    No citation needed.

    This is what PS2 currently *is*, and the people who are playing it now are doing so because the like it... otherwise they'd be doing something else instead.

    You can look on the forums to see what the forumsiders want. And most of that is not about removing teleporters or making it more different from the average shooter.
  19. Blackinvictus

    I remember that at launch, that was a pretty damn cool introduction as a noob. Hop in one at the warpgate, not know where your going, or stick around and crew for the guy who was generally very appreciative. Just don't see that anymore.

    Nowadays, Outfits/Platoons will pull them at the start of the alerts for their own people but that's about it. Don't really NEED to randomly hop in one anymore.
    • Up x 2
  20. Astriania

    The logistics question is not a simple more/less answer, because there are two competing influences:

    - New players and casual players (which can be any of us, at one time or another) just want to get into a good fight and start shooting stuff. However
    - a 'good fight' depends on even numbers and a chance of victory or at least not just being farmed. The ability to redeploy instantly to front line fights from anywhere means that any good fight can be zerged to hell in 20 seconds flat if some outfit pulls a platoon there.

    Simple restricting respawn options (to address the second point) makes it impossible to get into a fight quickly for individuals, working against the first point.

    What we need to do is restrict multiple spawns in a short period, for example by extending the spawn timer for bases and sunderers that are under heavy spawn pressure. Give bases a maximum spawn rate (1 player every 5 seconds per spawn tube, and if the base is servicing more than that, extend the timer so the average rate remains the same. That means that a casual player can still redeploy to the fight they want with a little bit of extra delay, but if you want to drop 3 squads into the spawn room of a small output with 2 tubes, it'll take you a few minutes to get everyone there – meaning that it makes sense to use galaxies or sunderers for transport, or beacons, instead.

    I don't think there's a big problem with aircraft and ground vehicles, although being able to pull tanks and sundies anywhere is a mistake imo. The big problem with the strategic game is instant mass infantry redeployments.

    Logistics operators also need to get XP for their trouble. That has improved a lot with the 50XP deploy kill bonuses but some explicit 'tactical drop' and 'tactical deploy' bonuses for people who bring gals and sundies into critical areas (define that how you will but let's say a territory with >55% enemy pop and at least 25-48) would help as well.
    • Up x 2