Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Commandoo, Aug 8, 2019.
If you can't admit they were OP before the nerf, then that about says it all.
they only were op in cqc ... anywere else they s cked ... and now they s ck everywhere ...
Your refusal to acknowledge the blatant imbalance purely because it supports your preferences is weak and hypocritical.
They were not OP. A few tenths of a second faster kill in perfect conditions without the same effective range, ease, or sustained fire as the other two doesn't make them magically the most powerful of the three.
What they were was frustrating. Frustrating to die instantly when the victim feels like he couldn't do anything. Unfortunately the game is chock full of other things with significantly more range and much lesser limitations.
Regardless, having a niche and being good at it is not as significant as being bad at everything.
The pre-nerfed NC MAX outperformed the other factions in every meaningful way (KDR, KPU and significantly more kills). Instant kill was just a small part of it since even with slugs you could delivering high enough alpha and hurt to reduce the effectiveness of C4 and rocket launchers + the shield which added more survivability (and synergised exceptionally well with slugs). No amount of rationalising or walls of text will change that.
Current iteration of the NC MAX is BS though.
The NC MAXes' ability to instakill was literally the only advantage it had. Ranged slugs didn't have any meaningful advantage over ranged MG fire and the directional shield doesn't help much in combat. It has limited health, takes time to activate, doesn't cover the majority of the MAX, and completely disables all offensive capabilities. Against anything other than enemy MAXes the shield isn't a major advantage.
That is literally a false statement. Not seeing (or practically using) the advantages of slugs stems more from a lack of imagination than anything (Mattock slugs were quite popular after all though my favourite was always the Grinders). Yes, the shield does have some disadvantages (as does the other faction abilities). Also, the data clearly showed the NC MAX outperforming the others.
I don't see how. Instakills are the only main draw of a shotgun like this, or perhaps like they were would be more appropriate. The spread is a bit of a mixed bag but a large volume of fire can replicate the affect, and that's pretty much it for buckshot.
Slugs are mostly just hit-and-miss, all-or-nothing. Maybe I am just being unimaginative, but I don't see much room for anything else. And I can't pretend like they're super long range because I've seen enough to know they aren't at all. The only reason why slugs were so popular is because they help to alleviate the penalties of using shotguns, as aside from reducing the potential for friendly fire they don't help in a shotgun's effective range.
The data also showed the NC pulled double the Gorgons and less AI MAXes than both other factions' MAXes, while using extra AV MAXes compared to the VS with the exact same amount of Bursters as the VS did.
If shotguns were noticeably more powerful, why do they have only one main advantage over the more common and more versatile machine guns? It just doesn't add up in my opinion.
You guys must be smoking something. Hacksaws had almost 4x the dps of the closest TR and VS guns. And it wasn't just slugs that were the problem. The Mercy, TR's 'long range' gun, didn't start to beat Mattocks dps till after 20 meters, while being only slightly more accurate, and that's with buckshot. At point blank, Hacksaws to the body dealt almost twide as much damage as mercys to the face. And the stats objectively backed up this power. Of course I had disdain for such a broken unit. And I've repeatedly admitted your max is a touch underwhelming right now. And I've repeatedly called for TR and VS to have their Maxes nerfed to NC's level. You guys are off your rockers of you think things were fine before even without slugs.
Well maybe against other MAXes (in the dreadfully common scenario that a 1v1 between two full health MAXes in short range is ) but against infantry the DPS difference is pretty close to null. If shotguns didn't kill in the first burst or even second they'd kill slower than the volume of fire.
And again, even with Mattocks at 20m most infantry aren't going to be taking every pellet just because of how small they are compared to a MAX. Throw in cover and clientside and it's not unreasonable to see why a Mercy would perform better most of the time.
Hacksaws verses Mercies at point blank is obviously not a fair comparison, but again this is mostly only relevant against MAXes.
Again, stats did not back this up, much less objectively. Subjectively, perhaps. Stats showed lower usage and higher performance which is a surprisingly common phenomena on a number of less than stellar weapons. While the NC MAX's usage wasn't way out of whack neither were the performance stats given the situation it would be pulled for. (EZ mode bullet sponge with very fast TTKs in short range, true of most any MAX short of Gorgons or Bursters.)
There is a significant difference between saying something is a touch underwhelming and saying it's more balanced than ever before. And also, "your MAX?" Don't think I have a personal stake in this, I have an equal disdain for MAXes and never use them myself.
I don't think things were fine, quite the opposite! Shotguns clearly sucked even before they were nerf'd.
Its this kind of thing that keeps showing your bias in this case. Even if the NC MAX's COF started at 0, the pure pelletspread already outmatches the starting COF of the Mercies (or almost every other MAX AI weapon). Add to that the existing COF and that the pre-nerf COF was even bigger and the DPS can never be the same. Its like stating that a weapon with a 90 degree COF has better DPS at range than another more accurate weapon. Sure if RNG is somehow magically with you and all shots hit despite the chance being less than a percent of a percent then your DPS is higher. But in any real scenario your shots will miss more and you are also punished more for misses...
Hey could it be that to reduce this effect the NC MAX was and is only ever used in its ideal circumstances while the VS/TR MAX as we can clearly see is used in many more even though its not ideal for them? Gee what a surprise...
"The only reason...", no, your reason. I ran mostly slugs (especially after MAX charge was removed) and did so because I did really well with them. This is one of the reasons I disagree with the current state of the NC MAX since they 1) removed the thing which made them competitive at a longer range 2) removed the gap closer with MAX charge 3) reduced the effective range of buckshot. Where I previously had the option to specialise or generalise we now have the worst of both (or neither) worlds.
Double the Gorgons as TR and which VS pulled approximately 2/3s of Gorgons. Ravens were pretty popular as well and, of course, Pounders being a thing back then (why go for a Gorgon when you had a better alternative?). Meanwhile the VS didn't exactly have a great draw to pull an AV MAX. When you also factor in AI MAX units (with two arms) the numbers level out with TR pulling about a thousand more AI/AI MAX units than VS/NC. The extra AI arms on VS/TR can be attributed to default MAX units (or the cert piñata MAX) being pulled since they correlated to the extra numbers of AV pulled on the opposite arm.
In the end, the performance data showed us the NC AI MAX handily outperforming the other factions. Doesn't mean the NC MAX deserved the heavy handed nerf it got.
Says the person who thinks
You think it's balanced for TR and VS to be doing the same damage as the shotgun max in cqc, but with far more sustained fire, far more accuracy, far more range, far more ammo (literally EVERYTHING except having similar cqc damage is worse)
There is a reason why you see every NC max using a crap weapon like gorgons that you'll never see tr or VS use.
Because TR and VS don't need to use Gorgons, every AI max weapon that they have is a viable option, much better than gorgons,
For NC however, the crappy Gorgon is the current best option, hell, it is THE ONLY option...
After dumping all my Hacksaw ammo (extended mags) point blank into the head of an enemy max I then attempted to punch him to finish the 1/4 of health he had left and died. He just sat there constantly unloading into me. This is point blank and some 24 Hacksaw shots in the face of an enemy max. NC max is nothing more than a bullet C4 pinyata as it stands currently. Dont get me started on the shotgun faction BS. Why even bother giving an empire "Oh high dmg when most weapons instakill you anyway at range? NC shotguns are outclassed by every other shotgun in the game. When did the dev's decide to completely FK the NC arsenal ?
FYI also the Shield in planetside 1 NC max covered the entire body like a bubble and was disabled when firing and drained while active. If you wanted to go down that path at least it would give you a chance to reload.
Who put a Vanu loyalist in charge of weapon balance? Time to give the NC some much loved shotgun buffs to bring it on Par with the other empires. IMO.
Good to be back in the game new stuffs awesome weapon balance is completely fked.
Every NC Max I've seen since I've been on has been running shotguns. Those shotguns still wreck infantry. I never said things were balanced. I specifically said things are "the most balanced". Big difference there. You could be walking in the opposite direction, then walk 170° off course and be the most on track that you've ever been. So yeah, I concede AGAIN that NC Maxes are a little weak, but I still say that where they used to be 90° off target towards OP, they're maybe 10° off in the other direction now. The fact is it wouldn't take a whole lot to nudge things to equal, be it nerfing TR/VS or slightly buffing NC, where as to get here it took a nerf sledgehammer.
Whatever mate this forum BS is what caused the stupid nerfs in the first place. You get no sympathy the NC max's are useless and everyone agrees stop strawmanning stupid reasoning to justify keeping them cr4p.
imo shotguns in general need a rework, the idea of a shotgun primarily with pellets is to pump a enemy with as much bullets and damage as possible over the whole body at once ... thus things like a headshotmultiplyer should not matter ... and they still should retain damage till medium range (or short to medium rather like up till 20-25? 30?) were if say 3 or 4 out of 6 to 7 pellets hit the target it´s similarly effective to a burst from a automatic rifle ..
So I grinded 10k certs for asp! Then realised I'm level 75 so wasted 2k on some max stuff. We had fights with max free alerts! I find TR just owning us with mini guns, my max is not stock but shooting heavy infantry and medics with shotguns kinda sucks as they just run away. I had a light assault kill me after shooting him with shotguns 1-2 times while he's dumping c4 on me. I went with the rockets as said on here because shotguns suck, I don't usually 1 shot anybody if I hit the rockets so I just shoot max, I decided to call myself an anti max and go after other max units. Letting my NC guys shoot troops. Not to say I can't kill troops with rockets on a max but makes more sense to just go towards enemy max units.
What else do I upgrade? I bought 2 hacksaws and they sucked so I stuck with the rockets, with weapons sorted now on arms do I upgrade him to withstand small arms? Or c4 and rockets? Do I give him self heal? Repair himself?
The only weapons possibly worth using are the scattercannons or gorgons, not worth getting extended because that's only 2 rounds for scats. Ravens are also low DPS cuckguns for AV, falcons suck for anything that isn't dpsing down a sundi with no retaliation, and aegis is meh at best.
Just be a heavy.
went to vr .. yea i would say pelletshotguns should be able to down a planetman with 3 or 4 shots up till 25 meters ... instead with a pump you need like 7 cause of the pelletspread and cone of fire and like 5 to 6 with semiauto ...
any further than that you have to go slugs ... but then ... why slugs when you have access to battlerifles that are more precize and have higher bulletvelocity ... and you have to ADS for that 25 meter range .. hipfiring with any shotgun for that range is a waste especialy with pelletpumps ..
What is the thing that kills you most? If you get killed by C4, rockets or tank mines the most then you pick flak armor. If you get whittled away by small-arms (and one good Carbine magazine to your face takes 2/3rd or more of your health!) then kinetic armor is good.
If you mostly stand around praying for an Engineer to repair you (In other words you survive combat despite explosives or small arms) then nanite repair is good. I often have Flak armor on and when I can't find an Engineer I walk to the terminal to swap out for auto repair.
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