[Suggestion] What would make being outpopped fun for you?

Fighting Zergs and being outpopped has been one of the earliest and most persistent gripes in the game. Many solutions have focused on a stick by punishing players for fighting while overpopping your enemy regardless of why the overpop happened (like the enemy leaving for the next base). Others have focused on providing a carrot such as XP boosts, which doesn't make the actual gameplay while being overpopped fun but lets players hurt their enjoyment for the potential extra XP (a few masogists who enjoy it excepted ofcourse).

So rather than focusing on carrots or punishing the overpop we should be coming up with idea's to make fighting an overpop fun. So I ask you, what would make fighting multiple enemies fun for you?

This is a bit unrealistic for PlanetSide 2, but the ability to kill multiple opponents alone being a fairly common occurrence would make it much more fun. Often one doesn't even encounter more than one enemy at a time or encounters so many all at once it's not even a fight.

In Red Orchestra 2, being outnumbered doesn't really happen overall do to the matchmaking system and bots, but locally it's fairly common. And yet, those situations are the most fun in my opinion. They feel like a desperate struggle to survive and hold/capture the points. Why they are fun, in my opinion, is because (in realism mode) everyone can die in an instant.

There have been times where I killed an entire enemy squad alone in less than five seconds by ambushing them from the top of a spiral staircase with an MP40. In PS2, the best a player could hope for is one or two headshot kills before being obliterated by the sheer volume of fire.

I'm not really suggesting for the different sides to be buffed or nerfed though. Maybe once local pop reaches a certain threshold the underpoped could equip certain high-skill OHK/high-DPS weapons? 30/70 fights grant access to a certable pump-action with a Baron-like CoF?

It is a blast for me! There are always things you can do to an over populated base; and if you do these things right, you can actually break the back of advancing tide. XP bonuses, are more than a carrot they would be an entire CAKE for me. There is nothing like tearing from the shadows and flooring 5 to 12 people and 2 or 3 vehicles that are just not paying attention. Me and mine have stopped advancements a many times. You just have to know what targets to go for. OH, and if the other side is depending on jets!? That is point heaven! I will be 1 of 2 at a base I have no chance of winning for that kind of cert loot. Hahaha!

What makes an overpop fun for them is when we get mad at them for doing it. The way to stop them from having fun is to leave the base. Imagine a 48-96 player zerg with 0 people to defend. They get bored pretty quick, the zerg dissipates, and in the meantime you can go fight a base that actually needs help. Imagine how stupid it is to put 48-96 of your players in 1 spot and having nobody to fight. That is a ton of people you could have used to get other bases in a divide and conquer strategy. That is how we make it less fun for them. Don't give them anything to shoot. The only downside to that is if an equally big population on our team moves to help us out, and we all just left.

I enjoy fighting against overpop as long as it doesn't become obscene and result in spawn camping. There are simply more enemies to shoot at which is fun!

I've not gotten a really good look yet but changes like what they did to the biolab to make more spawns might be helpful. As long as I can get out of my spawn and get to some workable cover and shelter I'm ok. It might be a slog from there and my KD might be low, but I can push forward, fight, and have fun.

If I can't get out of the spawn, or just get cut down befoe I can fire a shot then no fun.


Keep in mind that a lot of people participate in these zergs simply because they suck. They are 0.5 KD players and capping a base by overpop is the only way they can accomplish it. They also see it as a necessity to gain certs. It's hard to gain certs when you're both new and suck. Winning bases is very helpful.

That sort of lends to another suggestion: Game is 6 years old. The gulf between noobs and vets is wide now. It's time to crank up the base cert gain multiplier. Help the new guys out (at let the vets finally get their last implants)

being able to deploy a sunderer within our own base like we used too.

i used to enjoy playing defensively against the zergs because my sundy could give our team a fighting chance at repelling the zerg,
it took planning "ok zerg is at base X they'll be at base Y in Z minutes!" and then it took a great deal of time actually manoeuvring a sundy into an epic spot. (one of my favourites was on the balcony at the old Ti Alloys, it gave you fast access to the point and it was difficult to reach for attackers)
but the joy of the meatgrind made it well worth it!

though i know defensive sundies will never come back, so i'd just like some bonus for the hopeless defenders,
be it faster spawns or even better, bonus resources!
what i don't want is DBG trying to control where people are allowed to spawn in order to prevent the zerg,
they should instead offer defenders a reason to fight the zerg!
they should ENCOURAGE big fights! not attempt to disable them!

I understand what you mean, but I wonder if this wouldn't make the game too unfun for the overpop? How many players would pick underpops for OP farms?

If you read the OP you should have noticed that this isn't about how you feel about it right now but how to improve on the situation. You might like it in your head, but most people don't and it's been a problem since the beginning of the game. So even if you do like it you could come up with idea's to make it more enjoyable for the underpop. "more enjoyable" does not necessarily mean "obliterate everyone on sight".

You misread, the idea is to make it fun for the underpop, not the overpop. And not by screwing the overpop but by actually making people enjoy fighting overpops. Liewec has the right idea:

If you make it fun to be in the underpop then every aspect of the game can be enjoyed. Being outnumbered can be fun, when players join and the fight becomes even it can be fun, and when you are in the overpop and have less to worry about it can be more enjoyable for less capable players.

And yes, allowing defenders to place Sunderers anywhere would be a good idea. I would try to introduce the Forwards Station for this purpose but they decided to scrap that in favor of the Router instead.

So that's something you could try to solve, how would you solve spawncamping?

2 things that surely have been mentioned would be a naniteboost to get quicker/more access to vehicles and consumeables and
a spawntimedecrease in the affacted area for the outpopped defending side ... otherwise i just can´t think of anything else that would be realy helpful gameplaywise that doesn´t fall into the area of battlefield/basedesign ..

Fighting multiple enemies is fun by itself. Fighting multiple enemies that have cobalt sundies, HE tanks, motion spotters, maxes, and a2g is not fun. It is really hard to continually spawn suppress without these as soon as pop numbers get even remotely close... on most bases.

Sure you could add bonus exp, but it isn't going to do anything for anyone except those sniping a few kills from the spawn shield. If anything, I would add bonus exp to smaller fights to encourage less zerging down a lane and more spread out fights. Oh, i'd also delete most/all of the above multipliers, but that isn't realistic.

Achieving local superiority in a theater is the most common tactic of war so it should not be punished at all.

Being over popped is fun!

It means plenty of targets, a more relaxed attitude toward defeat (there is no way around it, so enjoy the ride), the possibility to try different tactics (get a powered knife, cloak and run amok among hordes of enemies).

What I would change (but it is impossible) is the fact you can fire up to one second before the base is capped and then respawn without dying. It is a cheesy tactic. But prevent respawn would not achieve anything because one would simply logout instead.

I dont mind fighting overpop but I hate spawn room farming/camping. So if they would just implement random drop pods for defenders at X% I would be at all underpopped fights. That would be the flanking dream. Even if them dropped in a base 100% random.

"He who has a why to live can bear almost any how."

Here's a fresh idea... As one side starts to over-pop another, they gradually loose Intel, in the form of reduced range on the minimap and doritos. Let's say their electronics can only handle so much population. But that lore doesn't really matter. This doesn't buff anyone in a 1v1 sense, but it could give thte underdogs a little more breathing room.

The other things that could be tweeked while still allowing the better player to win a 1v1 are health/shiled regen and reload speed.

This is a silly game, not war. Games need competition to thrive. PS2 has very little of that.

And no, as a general rule, over-pop is not fun, otherwise it wouldn't be the single greatest thing most people are frustrated with.

"being overpoped is fun" (not singling you out) is the trendy try-hard thing to say, but some of your names are best known for being in zergs or zergfits. Which is especially pathetic because some of you are insanely skilled and don't need that crutch. You're not fooling anyone.

Too bad you're completely ignoring the price it takes to achieve local superiority. Then again you strike me as the kind who throws out terms without actually understanding what they really mean and how they are achieved. To say nothing of thinking his definition of "fun" is all that matters.

To achieve real local superiority against a near-peer opponent requires one side to intentionally strip units, supplies, and non-combat assets from one area then move them to another. All the while keeping the buildup of said forces hidden from prying eyes plus keeping the extra supplies said forces consume moving and protected. And there is always the risk that any attack made with said forces will end up being deliberately baited into over-extending then encircled which leaves the whole front line weakened. Then there is the matter of getting all those troops organized and communication going in a situation that comes pretty close to the definition of pure chaos.

None of that happens in Planetside. With a lattice that limits routes of attack into predictable lanes along unchanging bases, zero real logistics, a piss-poor population balance, etc there is absolutely no cost to forming a zerg and keeping it going save attention span. And defenders will run out of that after dying for the 50th time with zero chance of affecting the actual outcome before the attackers who are riding a high of knowing they aren't going to lose. As to communication, well Wrel made damn sure that there would be zero chance of that ruining his "look at me!" streams by removing orders chat yet leaving the ****stains that turn all of them into toxic sewers alone.

Now to the original idea. One simple term sums up how to make facing an over-populated opponent less mind-numbing. A chance to win. All the stuff to date has just been a placebo to make being farmed seem less painful. None of it gives the guys on the smaller side a real chance to beat back the zerg

First, construction.
Shrink the no-build zones to JUST around the immediate spawn & point rooms and add a fixed silo somewhere logical. Now defending a base against a 2 to 1 population might just be doable as defenders can plug the bigger holes in the Swiss cheese structures called "bases" to force non-imaginative attackers to funnel into choke points. Not to mention allowing the Glaive & Flail to have a purpose, including being used by attacking forces to beat back attempts to retake a base by simply dumping say 2 platoons onto 2 squads.*

Yes this makes bases hell to take. IF someone actually takes the time to build the fortifications and keep the silo supplied. Which isn't easy and downright impossible if the other side is determined to starve the defenses by hunting down any ANT that pokes its nose nearby. Obviously no fortifications would mean an easier base to take while a heavily fortified base is going to require a constant stream of ANTs just to keep it running out and decaying at a crucial time. Hence why it wouldn't need to be "balanced" - it already has a well-tested mechanic in place to do just that. Plus it creates more options for a smaller force as now instead of always having to face the zerg head on they can elect to weaken the defenses via destroying ANTs & leading the ANTs protectors on wild goose chases.

Second, the lattices & maps.
If you look at the maps you can see how they are set up to create and sustain zergs and steamrolls by outright removing any ability to for what might be termed counter play. Classic example - the western side of Amerish between the two amp stations. Between the mountains/ hills to the east and only 1 lattice connection between the two lanes, leaving a zerg moving down one lane completely free to advance with no chance of being cut off or even having to worry about a non-air response coming in behind them.

Fixing that isn't a matter of adding a few more one-point "bases" in the middle of existing area either.
Its going to require Daybreak get off their lazy ***** and replace their fixed lattice system (which had the same problems in PS1) with something that can react to population differences by selectively closing off some avenues of attack against the smaller side while opening up new ones against the large force. It is also going to require adding new options to vehicles (ex a heavy lift variant/ frame for the Galaxy to transport vehicles) and construction (where are our bridges) that can let a group break out of having to follow predictable lanes of attack & movement.

Again referencing PS1, we had a hell of a lot more mobility when it came to avoiding zergs. We could jump to a different continent - even one that was locked - through warp gates and later on the caves to eventually come out behind any zerg that didn't have its back to their "home" warpgate. The Galaxy and later Lodestar could transport any vehicle pretty much anywhere to say nothing of Deliverers, Magriders, and Threshers being fully amphibious on maps with water obstacles. In the absolute worst case it was always possible for a squad to drop pod from the sanctuary onto some base, blow up the spawn tubes, then start draining it to force it to go neutral for a hack.

PS2 lacks any of those options. In that it is much more akin to the recycled play of Battlefield or Call of Duty where you have no option but to charge/ defend over and over until too many of one side is waiting to respawn to continue the fight and the base - effectively a new map - flips before the whole mess is repeated for the next fight. Yet that sort of thing is exactly what is needed to give a group facing high odds the chance to come out on top and thus a reason to keep trying instead of doing as Recursion does and bailing for the next farm when the fight gets ugly.

* Yes there are people, even outfits, who do just that. Sokaars Legion on Emerald is notorious for that being their only plan for every situation. One squad holding a point? Drop 2 platoons on them and act as if you're "skilled".

Look, I'll make it easy for you:

Zergs exists because (most of) the players like to win easy and risk nothing, just like there are a lot of snipers because (most of) the players think sniping guarantees high KDR and safety.

Now you can either do two things:

Cry in a corner against the unfairness of Zergs and sniping, remember "the good old days of PS1", suggest design changes that nobody will ever implement not because those are bad: but because most of the players are casual players who just want to have fun

Or

Just accept that Zergs (and snipers) are here to stay until PS2 will die and therefore adapt, learn to live with those limitations and enjoy the game till it will lasts.

PS2 is a sandbox without rules or hard/imposed team structure, so each one plays as he or she likes.

If nobody liked Zergs or sniping, we wouldn't be here talking about that.

If the under-pop had an actual in game advantage people would enjoy it more.

And don't give me this "then everyone would play the under-pop faction" because that is mathematically impossible and the point of it. If everyone switches to under-pop faction then they won't be under-pop now will they? Problem solved.

Oh then. I like fighting as the underpop because I get to snipe people, easy headshots. Legit if they are spawn camping, just switch to sniper. If they are a squad, they will taunt you when you don't come out. All you gotta do is stick your sniper out, boom boom. They are dead. I'll give an example.

I was fighting at a base yesterday, we were overpopped by VS 87%-13%. I was showing NC a good time as a region chat commander at the bases, and I told them two things in world chat. (1) Do not taunt them. We have the overpop so don't be a jerk. They listened. (2) Do not spawn camp. They asked why. I told them it was a jerky move and that we have to watch the point. Also if we spawn camp, he won't come out of his spawn and he will just shoot us from there. They listened. It was in world chat. The dude who as there was spam taunting us and being an overall jerk, then he called some buddies to come and take the whole thing back, and I told VS what I told the team to do. They didn't care, and they spammed taunts on us, so I shot them from the spawnroom multiple times and made them mad and scared, and they stopped coming out, except for when they tried to troll me. They got up beside the spawn room and spammed taunts, but I just peaked the corner and sniped them and they backed off. Good times.

The main point of that story was just to show what I like to do at overpops that spawn camp. The other point of that story was taht VS sucks butts and NC are the good guys.

1. Spawn rooms with a one way mirror that the enemy cannot see through for the doorways.

2. Allied Spawn rooms that are technically not visible to enemies on the minimap.

3. More than one spawn location at a capture base that is not so predictable.

4. Construction bases that engineers or ant users can use to reinforce existing bases with better fortifications.

5. More viable options for combat engineers like in the original Planetside, more than just 1 spitfire, 5 mines and more like the original with 20-50 mines, 10 spitfires, shadow spitfires, AA spitfires, ground turrets for AV and AI, fortifications like tank traps, booby traps, pitfalls, doors on certain area or locations. Advanced engineering to upgrade existing base turrets.

6. Vehicle bays with actual garages and areas where they can not get clustered up and camped or shields added to priority areas to allow air vehicles to get in flight to counter.

7. Base turrets that can auto fire enemies when not manned.

I'll be the first to admit it's not a great suggestion, but it would make underpops much more fun in my opinion.

I think it probably would be pretty bad to go against such a weapon in skilled hands, but I also don't think there's ever going to be a happy medium were both sides are having a lot of fun when pops get out of equilibrium.