What this game needs is a way for low skillcapers to contribute meaningfully against highskillcapers

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Zoopshab, May 9, 2020.

  1. Zoopshab

    If you not going to have some form of matchmaking (which is not really possible with the current game design) then what you need it role that low skillcap infantry (new players) can contribute meaningfully against high skillcap infantry.

    The problem is if you die in 0.5 sec you contribute nothing.

    If I think back to my experience starting with DOTA, aside from the initial games, when I was a new I would play support. Because I could contribute without being all that good. And after a while I learned to play carries.

    In this game, one of the major problems is "feels like cheating". Headshots = instant death for any new player. And if you're up against a god heavy, it doesn't matter if you're infil, engi, heavy. You always die the same in 0.5 seconds and there's nothing you can do. It feels unfair (it feels like aimbots/hacks/recoil scripts), and you feel like not being made the fool.

    If on the other hand when a newbie comes up against a god heavy, there is a role he can at least fall back into where he can DO SOMETHING, and not die in 0.5 seconds, I think it would be a lot better.

    Dare I propose that we actually have the infantry classes specialized into roles along different skillcaps. The engineer for example could have a shield that protects his head (and somehow diminishes his outgoing headshots, or something). So against the Godheavy a new player instead of dying in 0.5 (and contributing nothing) you can do something and help your own team's high skillcap players respond to him.

    It would make sense then that if you see a heavy or light assault, you assume "good player/dangerous" and if you see an engineer you assume "new player/support/less dangerous".

    I would even go so far as to say not being able to change roles every respawn. Roles could be locked for 30 min. People actually need to ask for help from an infiltrator player, or a support player, or a highskillcap player, or to resquest players in their squad pickup these roles based on their skillcaps.
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  2. Zoopshab

    Lowskill - Infil - Sniper (Scout & Battle Rifle)
    Highskill - Light - Carbine (Shotgun) (SMG)
    Medskill - Medic - Assault Rifle (Shotgun) (Scout & Battle Rifle) (SMG)
    Highskill - Heavy - LMG (Heavy) (Shotgun) (Scout & Battle Rifle) (SMG)
    Lowskill - Engineer - +SMG Carbine (Shotgun) (Scout & Battle Rifle) (Sniper)
    It would have been easy if engineers had been given their own weapon category like SMG.

    -Infil you don't touch because they're already kinda low cap as a Sniper or Spotter.
    -You take SMG away from the other classes and make it the Engineer dedicated weapon. Lower the headshot multiplier on SMG to 1.
    -Engi gets a headshot protection shield.
    -SMGs and Shotguns fight each other for the very close-range role anyways so no reason a class needs access to both.
    -Take Sniper away from Engi so its a dedicated infil weapon. Each class gets their own dedicated weapon.
    -(Battle Rifle) go to Engineer. So the engineer has a long range option. They also get access to a weapon (battle rifle) that has underbarrel attachments which is engineer themed anyways. Lower the headshot multiplier to 1.5.
    -(Scout Rifle) go to Infil which gives them a close range primary. They don't get a weapon with underbarrel attachments because that really doesn't fit with their theme.
    -The KSR-35/Impetus/PhantomVA23 (Sniper) and HSR-1/AF-6 Shadow/NyxVX31 (Scout) have almost exactly the same role. Scrap 1 group and recycle the artwork.
    -Battle Rifle and Scout Rifle currently feel like they belong in the same category. I would have them put in the same category but we want one weapon that can have it's headshot multiplier lowered to give it to engineer.
  3. Blam320

    You've got literally everything completely backwards.

    Infiltrators are the highest skill cap class in the game, since they have the least HP and use sniper rifles - the most difficult to use infantry weapons in the game - by default.

    Heavies are the lowest skill cap in the game since they're built around winning 1v1 engagements with their overshields and high-capacity LMGs.

    Everything else is more medium skill, save for the Engineer, since they lack the same combat utilities as the Medic and Light assault.

    The only sniper Engineers have access to is the Archer anti-materiel rifle. Otherwise they get access to Battle Rifles like everyone else.
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  4. Zoopshab

    I never felt like a player was cheating when I got sniped. I feel like a player is cheating when I get instagibbed by a carbine or LMG.

    I've never seen a infiltrator kill an entire squad of noob and win. Ive seen god heavies do that.

    You can complain about what's more skillcap that what all you like but I think it's good in principle.

    How would you change it then?
  5. Blam320

    I don't think "it," whatever "it" is, needs changes at all; you're looking for problems where there are none. Cheaters are very few and far between in this game and all the changes you're suggesting are not only nonsensical they're very misinformed. It doesn't help that you haven't explained the "problems" you're trying to solve, and you're also not really doing a good job of explaining how these changes would solve whatever problems you see.

    Actually, I'd just leave it at nonsensical. Locking people into a single class for 30 minutes isn't fair or fun, it's overly restrictive.
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  6. Zoopshab

    The problem you have its that players aren't sticking with the game because the headshot multiplier is too punishing and people assume the good players are cheating. This is literally in every other forum post.
  7. Blam320

    Okay, so... how is locking people into their class for 30 minutes supposed to solve that? And how is completely overhauling weapon accessibility supposed to do that as well? Just remove Nanoweave and Flak armor and reduce the headshot multiplier to 1.5 or even 1.25. Encourage people to pursue utility builds instead of giving them a placebo for their survivability, while still rewarding people who value and/or improve their aim.
    • Up x 2
  8. Zoopshab

    My original point was that we could have roles that lower skill cap players could fine more suitable, and roles that higher skillcap players would find more suitable.

    That way we could make both sides happy, the people who want to lower the headshot multiplier across the board, and the people who wany to keep it the same.
  9. Blam320

    I very strongly disagree with that sentiment; classes should represent different playstyles, not skill levels. Besides, the two support classes (Medic and Engineer) are already recommended for beginning players because their passive cert gain will be higher despite still learning the game's combat mechanics.
    • Up x 4
  10. Glenndal

    There's a lot of things in this game that make it tricky to learn, and that's part of why its so fun. Unlike a tf2 map that's completely static with known engagement points, things are wide open here. I'm terrible at aiming, but I frequently get menace and bounty kills on people that I presume are much better than me by just attacking from an angle they weren't expecting, usually by playing light assault or infiltrator. The primary factor in success from my experience seems to be who can read the engagement the best, and apply pressure in a way that surprises. Aim helps, but its not essential.

    That said, it does seem like a first-shot wins meta. The only way I survive if someone gets the drop on me is by sprinting to cover, and attempting to re-engage after I med-kit at least, and wait for shields to recover if I'm feeling particularly outmatched. If I hold my ground and try to return fire I'm usually just dead.

    I think Nanoweave 1 helps a lot here because it makes combat a little more drawn out. I do wish they'd just bake it in to how infantry work to free up the slot for something else, but that's a different discussion. The main point is that I think nanoweave 1 is fine. I think if we just reduce the headshot damage multiplier some we'd be in a slightly better place as far as noob-friendliness goes.

    That said, I'm not sure this is the place we need to be more noob friendly. The primary thing I think most new players need help with is reading the minimap and threat Id. If you know where people are attacking from, it becomes much harder for them to charge a room and take out 5 people who were looking the wrong way. If they're marked, you immediately know they're an enemy so there's no hesitation either.
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  11. YellowJacketXV

    This is pretty spot on, NGL.
    If heavy wasn't the easiest class in the game people wouldn't main it so frequently and 80% of a fighting force wouldn't be heavy.
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  12. YellowJacketXV

    There really never will be anything productive for low skillcap people to do in this game. In PS1, iirc, low skill individuals could at least plot logistics like dropcraft and the super important nanites transfer to keep bases running. That doesn't really exist in PS2. People can still spawn ANTS now which are super helpful for newbies and experience but once again it's hard to backpedal on a game that has, for it's entire life, catered to a high skill playerbase.

    I do agree that there should be options to give classes a low skill "leg up" but the flip side of that coin means high skill players will abuse the goodies too. Who WOULDNT equip an item that makes your headshot multiplier less lethal? It doesn't matter, in the long run, if variables are changed by even a matter of 5-10%. If it is mathematically better, people will flock to it in a new meta. Whether you are high or low skill is irrelevant. Sad but unfortunate truth.

    The best option is NOT to provide infantry or whatnot buffs or bonuses through items but to provide more opportunities to assist. I would suggest a couple of things:

    Indirect-fire weapons like mortar kits.
    More engaging repair and infantry healing/buffs. Make players want to PROTECT YOU because of something your class offers to the engagement.
    More involving recon with the infiltrator, more hackable options.
    Double or triple the EXP gained from delivering nanites to silos that don't belong to you.
    Create a logistics vehicle with tactical options.
    More engaging deployable pieces of gear that grant upticks to exp when used properly.
    Weapons for each faction that offer suppressive based firing capabilities. VS have a lasher which is literally "aim down a corridor" weapon, NC and TR should have an equivalent of some kind for their faction based lowskills.

    Stuff like that would greatly help out lower skill cap individuals and make them feel more involved even if they die quick.
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  13. Johannes Kaiser

    Might also have to do with the fact that HA is designed as THE primary frontliner. But yes, it's a good class to get into once a player is somewhat familiar with how combat works in this game and wants to learn more by doing. :)

    More repair and ammo supply XP would be nice, and ESPECIALLY more healing XP (revive is faster already and gives way more, so in fact Medics are almost encouraged to let people die, which is bizarre). Also readding them to the pool of things that affect the base capture. Seriously, bases get captured partially because they have supporters, otherwise attacks would fold in seconds. That should be reflected, and in this way, even new players can contribute to continent control without feeling like they did nothing at all (especially when still in doubt about a game, it can be a tremendous morale boost to see that your healing gave you spot X on the location leaderboard, and encourage to keep going).
    • Up x 1
  14. Twin Suns

    Most of us that play Planetside 2 are a dying breed. o7

    Especially if you consider all the lollipop shooters that have been put out over the last decade. You know the publishers who have cornered the market with those lollipop shooters. ;) i.e. Aiming mechanics (auto-aim) so strong I can play using my feet, no friendly fire and that casual gamer's "no risk, all reward" mantra.
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  15. Twin Suns

    I can understand streamlining or improving the new player's experience to help with new player retention. I'm all for that.

    But watering this game down like a slip-N-slide is not the way.

    I'm not sorry, the 2 to 5 year vets are beasts. This is Planetside. They've put in the work to get better, it's that simple.

    Planetside 2 is a game of hard knocks. The community takes pride in broken noses, black eyes and scars. Not to mention...freedom of play style.

    • Up x 3
  16. That_One_Kane_Guy

    I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and say that you yourself are a relatively new player. You come off as someone who is heavily influenced by another game they're familiar with and wants to try and turn this new game they've found into something more like it.

    A sufficiently skilled player can fight a group of noobs with any class and win, the Heavy Assault is just especially good at it. Infil Players who can do this absolutely exist, but the skill disparity required for them to do so is large enough that the legitimacy of that skill is still a hot debate topic.
    You don't. Classes aren't DOTA characters. You don't pick Engineer because it's 'Low-Skill/High-Skill/etc' you pick Engineer because you need to repair something, or to drop ammo, or to place mines/turrets.

    Trying to pigeonhole classes the way you're suggesting would be like rating the tools in your toolbox: Hammer, Wrench, Screwdriver, Pliers. It doesn't work that way.
    • Up x 2
  17. Nehlis

    I feel like there are plenty of tools to allow low skill players to contribute in each class, but its more of a matter of application and mindset. If you are not confident in mechanics, try focusing on a supportive playstyle rather than a kill heavy one. Some tips for low mechanics players:

    Infils have recon tools, scout rifles to play a more supportive role. Focus on spotting and gathering intel, picking off targets if you can. Having friendly motion sensors and recon darts helps everyone on your side. Even simple spotting while cloaked really helps allies nearby, preventing them from being flanked. Cloak when you peek, decloak when either taking a shot or when safe behind cover. Also, get your hands on Anti-personell mines, sneak them into cheeky positions. Hack terminals and turrets. Depriving the enemy of options is always a good contribution.

    Medics: upgrade your medical applicator. Max level lets your revive ludicrously fast, and bringing back players is extremely important for winning a fight. cert into revive grenades, stay behind your heavies and use your assault rifle to help suppress chokepoints. Shield regen units are really good for defensive play.

    Engineers: Don't underestimate the effect of a turret, not just for its firepower, but as cover, suppression and as aggro tool. Put one down overlooking a choke point or doorway, and lay down suppressing fire. This will make it difficult for players to press into the room, it takes attention away from your teammates, and provides a solid brick to hide behind. Drop ammo often and try to pair up with a MAX unit, keep them healthy and supplied. Also, get mines of either type.

    Heavies are harder to play as support rather than fragging, but there are still some options. Take advantage of your high magazine capacity and suppress/Prefire chokes. If you can afford it, try getting the thumper, the Minichaingun or the Lasher. These are weapons that are not so great in 1v1 duels, but very powerful as support weapons. Thumper and Lasher especially are AoE focused, so it will be easy to do damage even if you have trouble aiming.

    Light Assaults are a frag heavy class, so you have very few support options. I'd strongly suggest investing in the smoke/IR combo to stack odds in your favor, otherwise get C4 and explosives and hunt tanks/ clusters. Spot from a high vantage point. Otherwise it is very kill focused, and should be played only if you are confident in your mechanical skill.
    • Up x 2
  18. Twin Suns

    I got it. Give them the HMS ribbon.

    Human Meat Shield ribbon.
  19. Werkitten

    As I have already written in other topics, the bad thing is not that you die in 0.5 seconds, the bad thing is that the enemy can be exposed to your fire and not get damage, while he himself will kill you in 0.5 seconds.
    That is why I am not for reducing damage to the head, but for increasing damage to the body.

    As for the game for those who can not win a shootout at all, there are quite a lot of options in the game. Why not get behind the wheel of technology, for example? Sunderer with a repair module or ammunition box is a real mechanized farm. You are useful and will not be killed by a sneaking infiltrator.

    There is a problem that you can be killed before the image of the enemy appears on the screen. But this is a problem that does not depend on the balance within the game. In my opinion, this is the main problem at the moment, there is no sense to correct the balance until the technical basis is fixed.
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  20. Liewec123

    All that they need to do is reduce the headshot multiplier on everything except bolt action sniper rifles.
    Such a simple fix.
    But they're too busy adding explosions everywhere.
    • Up x 1