We need more pilots

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by adamts01, Oct 7, 2017.

  1. adamts01

    "ESF own the skies". Fine. But now that they're such a critical and dominating vehicle, we need more people flying in them, or we'll never see balance. This is a 2 part suggestion.

    1st: I'm stealing part of this one from ( _______ ), I can't remember, but it was a great idea. Make ESF half their price and weaker in armor and firepower. This makes it easier for new players to get in flight hours and improve. I hate spamming vehicles, so I cringe a little at this, but if part of the game is going to be so crucial, it needs to be heavily populated. 12v12 ESF fights over a busy base should be normal. Possibly have ESF only spawn from the warpgate. It would be hard to keep pilots down with that nanite cost, but adding travel time would at least keep them out of the fight for a while after a kill.

    2nd: They need to be more user friendly. But for the sake of god don't give us crutch weapons like Tomcats. Coyotes would be fine if they only reloaded when selected, same with the nosegun. Instead, I stand firm that we need a gun with some sort of very small aim assist, maybe a 1/2 meter. Make sure its dps is low enough that it would never compete against an average pilot with a stock gun. This could also be the flak gun that I keep hearing proposed, but it would have to have a ridiculously small burst range, like 1/2 meter. One of these mechanics is needed as a starter gun so new pilots can progress, as you'd still have to lead and maneuver to get your shots, unlike the zero-skill lock-ons we have, which guarantee a bad pilot will stay bad.

    Bottom line, this game NEEDS more people flying, and we need to think of ways to make it more approachable and easier for new pilots to get in to.
    • Up x 3
  2. LodeTria

    But it's hard and I just wanna play infantry all day with my mindless zerg. I don't wanna git gud and wanna win with no effort so pander to me devs and dumb the game down to promote my mindless behavior.
    • Up x 2
  3. adamts01

    That's absolutely what they did with the lock-ons, those are pure cancer. But having nothing but high-skill weapons isn't any less of a fault. Anyway, at the end of the day this is a failing game, and it's failure to give a place in the air for all skill levels is a part of the problem.
  4. Campagne

    I agree with both suggestions, props to the original author of number one.

    More air fights and less one-sided farm squads would be much more fun for just about everyone, in my opinion.
  5. FateJH

    Excuse me while I link to the many threads since the end of Beta asking existing pilots to rethink or at least compromise a bit on their flight model and/or the controls.

    (I wanted to say "hundreds ..." but I'm not going to try count them.)
    • Up x 3
  6. adamts01

    True, but up until this point there has always been an alternative to using an ESF. There's always been a workaround if you weren't one of the very few who can dogfight, such as taking a shredder lib or some engineers in a valk. Or even lock-on G2A and Skyguards. There's just no counter to ESFs but ESFs anymore, so it's more critical than ever that we make air more accessible.
    • Up x 1
  7. zaspacer

    The problem average players have trying to fly is this:
    1) Aces and Gank Squads love to farm weaker pilots (average players), and seek them out
    2) Aces and Gank Squads can kill weaker pilots very fast and with little risk
    3) Aces and Gank Squads can roam the whole map safely and quickly to find and farm weaker pilots
    4) average players run out of Resources quickly after being farmed repeatedly
    5) frustrated, unable to get the hours in to get a handle on the non-intuitive flying, and our of resources, the average player returns to the ground game

    If you want the average player to be able to get into the Air game, you need to change enough of the above to make it work.

    It's not hard to do. You just have to figure out which parts you want to change.

    You could add an A2A ESF that is (1) useless vs. ground and (2) free to spawn.
    You could add Perma Air Radar (unit shows up on all radar), performance nerfs, and other nerfs to Air that travels into uncontested enemy Air territory.

    Asking players or Devs? Devs are the ones that can make the changes. Players invariably abuse whatever they can get their hands on. Most players CELEBRATE when they find some advantage no other players are able to use.
    • Up x 2
  8. LordKrelas

    So more pilots with a more fragile vehicle, for less.
    They die easier to everything, with the weapons still being more effective than the ground for cheaper for the pilots that already fly.

    It is impossible to keep pilots down with the present.
    Imagine an ESF with 125 nanites a pop, with only a bit less firepower & armor: Which is more weaponry than the ground.
    The best pilots would never touch the ground, and would have an easier time killing the rest, in addition barely notice the reductions.
    AA would 'seem' good due to the sheer mass of it needed, which then hits the rookies who have less health and die faster.

    Make that aim-assist Anti-air only at that.
    Indeed, less lock-on reliance.

    We do not need however cheaper aircraft that are less valuable to lose than Lightnings.
    Aircraft even if cut in half, have more than enough firepower.
    The price reduction just makes it more like the Harasser; The skilled can spam the **** out of it & live longer.
    The Lesser, die just as much, and more often.

    I do not need to suffer an aircraft that barely makes a dent in someone's nanites, while everything AA takes half of mine.
    ESFs have never had a counter beyond themselves or brutal pilots.
    The #1 pilot suggested counters are:
    • Pull an ESF.
    • Coordinate entire squad against 1 man.
    • Redeploy away entirely.
    • Never leave buildings.
    You can even find these exact statements on these forums.
    Making air Accessible is a good goal; Making it impossible to make death of an aircraft deterr, or even be felt is ******* not.
    • Up x 1
  9. breeje

    i play this game from the start and i am trying to start flying with esf's for several years now
    it's those damn air kings who keep me on the ground
    the only time i fly is when i go up in a air zerg with my outfit or when the air is not full with esf's what is never after the patch
    i just can't get those air hours of training to become compatible with those "i fly only airplanes guys"
    and don't give me that crap from you have to fly with buddies or you should ask a veteran to fly with
    did that done this, air kings still drop me like flies when they find me, i am a flying free cert pinata to them
    • Up x 5
  10. adamts01

    1) Better players and more numbers will, and should, always win. Not much you can do about that.
    2) Again, skill and numbers, they should win. The best you can do is give new players a weapon that can at least scratch the paint of an ace, which I'm proposing. But in the end, skill and numbers should still win.
    3) The point is to have enough air that everyone is always at risk. Similar to the infantry game, but in the air.
    4) That's why halving the cost is important. I was against this for a long time, but if air is going to be its own mini-game, then it needs to be heavily populated, and cheap air is critical to that. Keep in mind that I'm also proposing a damage reduction along with lower health. So A2A ttk should remain similar, but G2A ttk will go down and A2G ttk will go up. All while giving pilots more air targets, which I'm sure everyone would appreciate.
    g) That's the whole point of this. Cheap air units that can keep new players flying, and easier to use weapons that build the skills necessary to advance.




    Don't think current ESF. They'd need a health reduction and damage reduction for this all to work. I'm honestly thinking about half their current health. If everything were to work and we started seeingfull squad vs squad fights in the air then it would have to be like swatting flies with G2A, and Libs would be the real threat to ground.




    I don't think so. Compare what I'm proposing to infantry on the ground. The best infantry players still go down, due to the absolute randomness of things that can happen in this game, and the vast amount of guns pointed everywhere. Now imagine those best players without cover, and keep in mind that I'm proposing an easier to use nose gun. They should still win against even 2:1 odds if they're that good, but they'd get wrecked and lose in a 3:1.







    That's just not true. It's impossible to keep a gank squad down, but keeping disadvantaged pilots down is easy. I know because I end up playing infantry for 10 minutes after losing 2 ESF to impossible odds.




    That's just not true. It's impossible to keep a gank squad down, but keeping disadvantaged pilots down is easy. I know because I end up playing infantry for 10 minutes after losing 2 ESF to impossible odds.


    Absolutely.

    Good pilots wouldn't notice the nanite loss, but battles would notice their lack of presence when they're killed. And they would get killed. Compare what I'm proposing to infantry combat with it's lower ttk. Even the best players go down due to the sheer number of guns pointed everywhere and the random explosions that happen in this game. Now imagine that ttk with no cover and easier to use weapons like the ground has. It could work.

    AA would essentially get double its current effectiveness against ESF, so those nanites spent on the ground would actually wreck ESF, not tickle them or deter them like we've always seen. Bottom line is that air needs to be cheaper if we're going to get it populated. We've seen no-skill weapons that helped a few people fly, but they were in gank squads and tthey didn't need help anyway. There needs to be a combination of a less abrupt skill curve as well as cheaper air.
  11. JobiWan

    I've tried. I've watched videos, I've spent 1000s of certs, I've flown in VR etc etc. I get the mechanics off pretty well, I can pull a reverse manoeuver, I can fly the thing just fine.

    But as soon as I meet another pilot who knows what he's doing, I die. It's alright saying 'git gud' - believe me I've tried but dying over and over again to 'pros' who hang around the warpgate to kill inexperienced pilots just to pad their stats is just demoralising and no fun. These are the ones that are making it impossible to gain any experience.
    • Up x 9
  12. HisokaTheRed

    You're not wrong but you're not entirely right either because because adam exist. He just barely got into the airgame around this time last year and he has improved considerably to be considered a decent pilot on Connery, I probably can't win against him anymore. Where you give up, he kept playing and kept dying and improving. This is where I side with the skyknights, skill and practice should be rewarded.

    Then again people say Connery air is the weakest. What skyknights want or have gotten for the better parts is because of the hover frame is an "air game" inside planetside. Where new pilots are the "game" in their air game but that is whats fundemantally wrong with with the "air game". Making Esf cheaper won't change a thing.

    Connery is a "**** hole" for their air game because of ganksquads, lockon spam, and coyotes etc. All of it is an excuse, all of it. There should be no "air game", if you want to play hovercopter duel, then go play ace combat or some other ****.

    1 person should not do both the A2A and the A2G duty, so when I do A2G, its in a group so I can get cover from a wingman. Every day, I get asked aren't I bored ganking 1 lone pilot, but thats not the ****** case. They can fly alone if they want but they are not alone, we are fighting their whole faction's air when we fly. It all comes down to organization. 1 skynight can gets "ganked" by 4 esf, but a small squad of esf will lose to a squad of higher skill/cohesion. Even those squad will lose when the other faction pulls a platoon of mass air, BUT the difference is that platoon of air will have way less competant pilots so they will thin out and die due to flak and other sources, it is not sustainable to run such a platoon. So the best way to fly in planetside is in a small cohesive squad, you get more practice flying more practice shooting, and if you do meet a skyknight chances are you won't die within the first 10 second.

    This is one of the many videos where air can and do make a difference. Excuse the weeb music, its raw footage and thats what i listen to. Our squad does not have a single "aces" only average and mediocre pilots, but we are fighting an "unorganized" and "unskill" platoon of NC air, note that while they are all in the same outfit; everyone of us comes from different outfit but we fly together frequently and practice "peeling" frequently. I have many more examples if anyone is interested.


    I would also give up my hornets and all my A2G ability and get memberships for the next 3 year if they somehow impliment a system of cheap air, remove the redeploy system, and make air interdiction a main gameplay feature. A single ground lockon can put me to burning for all I care, because I won't be doing A2G if I can play like this every night, win or lose.


    TLDR:
    Bottom line is, making esf cheaper will just increase the amount of "game" in the sky. Making or removing "clutch weapons" won't do **** if a new pilot still don't know what to do or what to engage in the air. The stigma of grouping up needs to be removed and there needs to be a mentorship of some kind for new pilots first.
    • Up x 1
  13. Baulk

    This concerns not only piltoing ESFs but the whole game basically. There is a bunch of hardcore players who farm newer players all the time - infantry, tanks, harassers, ESFs, you name it. They know every trick and abuse this game has to offer and they use it freely.
    • Up x 2
  14. The Rogue Wolf

    And people wonder where the whole "skyknight" thing came from. :rolleyes:
    • Up x 1
  15. adamts01

    Most of this game's players, during Connery Asian hours in particular, and yourself included have zero real desire for good fights. If you truly wanted epic air battles, you could switch to one of your alts and have those fights daily. What happened on Connery broke the machine. We have such a tiny amount of people who actually fly on the server, so when literally 75% of them decide to all go one faction, no balance or mechanic can ever work. Hide behind your definition of teamwork if you want, but this game just doesn't have the population to balance out anomalies like what you're part of. Stacking all air on one faction isn't good for the majority of players, isn't financially good for Daybreak, is causing our population to further decline, and is hastening the death of this game. Plain and simple. And if you sit around waiting for Daybreak to "implement a system" before you buy a membership then don't hold your breath. There are too many infantry for a single group to dominate every fight on a daily basis. Making air easier to use and cheaper will give us a slightly similar result. More people in the sky means that your cancerous little group of friends won't have as big of an impact. I really doubt any of this will happen, and you're delusional if you think any amount of balance will help your group find their balls. So if you honestly do want good fights then help make it happen, don't be part of the problem.
  16. Insignus

    No on #2.


    As to your overall point, the suggestion I routinely make is to replace the basic training directive "Pull an ESF" with "Pull A Valkyrie"

    Its a more mature design, with better controls and a superior flight model, and is more survivable and recoverable than an ESF. It also promotes teamplay, and provides a jump off point for highly manueverable engagements (ESF), Gunner centric CAS (Liberator) and Transport (Galaxy).
    • Up x 2
  17. zaspacer

    I totally agree that the rest of the game either has these problems, or (for some units) most of them.

    One key difference for Inafntry, is that they don't run out of Resources. So at least players can respawn to get practice. Though, as you know well, that really doesn't help most people deal with the issue.

    Zergs are one powerful way in which many players deal with the assault of the hardcore farmers. By sticking to Zergs, these players can apply force multipliers to help them bolster their own power levels.

    And this problem will likely continue unless the game is re-designed so that either (1) skill gap isn't as powerful, (2) hardcore organized play isn't as powerful, and/or (3) the game segregates players by skill and organized-vs-non-organized.

    I don't agree they should always win. And there is plenty that can be done to change how much they win.

    Again, I don't agree they should always win.

    I agree that an Aim Assist weapon could really help. But if you design it to get beat by better pilots, I am not sure how much it will help.

    Putting lots of fat birds in the air is gonna encourage more Air Farmers. Whether that's Aces or Gank Squads.

    What if it just leads to more G2A ESFs that ignore each other? You are making a Super Unit cheaper, a unit that has no known hard counters, and you are expecting that by spamming them they will police themselves better?

    I know you said make the ESF weaker and reduced firepower as well. So maybe that would work, by making it no longer a Super Unit. Which also kinda takes care of the problem anyway.

    Another option, is to make only the A2A version reduced Certs or even Free. Though it would wreck the Air game. And also remove lots of Air pressure from the ground game, which could upset the Ground Unit balance.

    That does sound good.

    PS2 has been terrible at new player support or helping players learn new units. Is this something they can conceptually and commitment-wise pull off?
    • Up x 1
  18. Lamat

    The problem with making ESF significantly weaker is it will also discourage new players. If they are not able to accomplish anything in an ESF they don't have incentive to put time into it. Then we only have the aces left or possibly empty skies.

    I've previously suggested an ESF penalty when in deep enemy territory to discourage those gank squads way far from battles that mean anything, like that lone ESF or 2 from the 3rd faction that showup to fight air where the other 2 factions are fighting for territory, or the warpgate taunting aces. Maybe have a 2 lattice line limit and a 1 minute countdown before an ESF has to switch to a lower power mode with reduced stats.
  19. LordKrelas

    Adam, refer to the bit about those Pilots being able to avoid being hit, and knowing how to use the power of aircraft.
    With less health, the Aces will barely notice, with less health, everyone new & not as good will die faster to those same pilots.
    Why? As less health, means every Ace has less to deal with when engaging inferior pilots.

    You won't notice the lack of presence.
    As the pilots will have less risk, since the aircraft is 50% cheaper to replace.
    They can easily bite the nanite cost repeatedly, allowing them to spam aircraft.
    It also means, something that amplifies its own firepower by the very nature of it is cheaper than any tank.

    AA retains the same vulnerabilities, the same issue, and only against inferior pilots & not against repeated attacks by those same pilots would the vastly higher nanite investment not be in favor of said pilots.
    An Ace with less nanite cost, can still take that vastly superior aircraft at 50% reduction (as it's that bloody high presently over the ground in all but health) and still slaughter everything, at a reduced cost.

    Air does not need to be cheaper. That makes losses less valuable, rather than actually make it easier to fly.
    It makes it hellish to counter, given unless you are outnumbered, you just spent once again more nanites
    - assuming you even win, as against that many in the first place you will die. That's from a skyguard's view.

    The controls need to be better, the built-in-radar & stealth needs a rework.
    Presently Stealth invalidates both the skyguard's Aircraft radar, and the ESF's built-in.
    This is mentally broken.
    Have Stealth reduce the detection range, but only for ground & non-esf radars.
    The Skyguard radar takes a reduced effect, this means Stealth doesn't counter everything meant to allow the fastest moving enemy to have radar & be immune to it at once.
    This means Aces with Stealth can not easily see & hide themselves from lesser pilots, ganking the **** out of them.
    ESF Radar detects ESFs, this means you can not simply equip stealth and surprise other fighters due to a slot difference.
    This is better for Rookies. Cheaper aircraft means nothing for Rookies, when they have less health making them die more.
    Making it easier for Rookies fighting skilled pilots, actually makes them not die as much, which is far more noticed than a cheaper replacement aircraft for the price of dying a **** ton more.
    Easier to kill = more deaths as a Rookie, with a direct link to them, add in price reduction and you cancel out the price reduction due to the increased number of deaths.
    Math.

    AA would get 'double' only against inferior pilots.
    The aces would have less reason to care about AA due to having less costs to their deaths.
    This means it is more profitable to do suicidal runs as the aircraft can be replaced more easily than the AA unit can.
    So AA units get a target that can suicide to kill them, and replace themselves for a lot less.
    Since the AA rather than be equal in cost, while being screwed for firepower, would be more than the cost and still not equal.


    Cheaper air allows AA to be incapable of deterring aircraft for sheer price alone.
    You destroyed a plane, well done, it is 2x or more times cheaper.
    It has even at 50% reduced firepower more than the Lightning tank, which is now more expensive.
    It has less health, making it easier for Rookies to die to everything let alone aces.
    You make the airgame even faster TTK against Rookies, and remove the Nanite cost of losing an aircraft for the skilled.
    Counter-productive.
  20. HisokaTheRed

    Just look at the bigger picture for a moment, its not about just Connery, if it was why would people from cobalt, miller emerald complain about the same problem. You know thats not entirely true or you haven't seen it all. In the past week, I've flown on all three faction; once on TR alone to test out the new weapons, only person on my friendlist willing to fly was a single asian lib pilot from outfit. Also flew on NC and I joined the most incompetent open "air squad" for 30minute.

    [The NC squad leader of 12 didn't say a single word; didn't type a single letter but then he could an asian, it was around 9pm. I ask why everyone was so silent or if anyone had a mic, no answer or reply, even from the americans in the squad. For that hour he didn't give any other direction except a waypoint right over TI alloy, half or 2/3 of the squad were ground most of the time. Worst part is, he was a decent pilot like you adam, he can hover dance and all that. It was me, him and like two other usual NC pilot that did most of the work while the other newer pilot were the meat shield that constantly overextend to die to 3-4 mossi waiting at J9. The new pilots didn't learn anything in that half an hour and making ESF cheaper isn't going to solve jack **** either.

    I didn't do a single second of A2G that night because I simply couldn't trust my wingman to help cover me.We still "won" because we had more pilot but we didn't do anything pass that, we engaged disorganized air with our "semi-organized" air and thats it.I did not enjoy flying a single bit, because there was no communication. It was stressful, even if I a squad of decent pilots, if there is no communication; might as well fly solo.]

    I've ask people like you, silkenTR, Tyrence and you have all rebuffed me and say you rather fly solo. I've ask people from MERC or FXHD if they want to fly, some were nice enough to just decline stating that rather solo lib or fly solo. I've flown with Tyrence, comradAids, vato before and their squad was exclusively friends or friends of friends and they enjoy being untouchable in their 3/3 libs or 2 2/3 libs. but not once have I seen an outsider or a new pilot among them. The one time I seen a decent lead outside of VS was [FXHD]ugotapottymouth on TR as part of a larger platoon, there was direction and communication and it was halfway enjoyable during American primetime.

    I've lead an air squad before on vs and it is the only faction that I CAN do so. Of 15 or so people that I can ask, only 3-4 or so would agree as most are busy doing "ops" or just doesn't reply. I do run open squad and new pilots do join. They do ask question about what weapon to use and what airframes to fly, and everyone chimes in. Its not easy leading, more so when you have to worry about your squad cohesion and logistic. We are not discriminatory, its ****** great when there are new people to play with and it doesn't cost us **** for helping them out. Just last night we have a broken english speaker from singapore gunning for the one of the American lib pilot in the squad and you can actually hear them having fun and apoligizing for crashing the libs. Do you not get it adam, you are turning into those people, those that you supposedly also hate beside us "cancerous" group of friends that fly together. I'll admit that I can see what you mean saying I'm the problem; when you blame me or anyone else, reflect that its not sole just us, its planetside as a whole. Don't go resorting to ad hominem.



    So when you say I'm the Problem because I only fly on VS or that I enjoy stacking. Its because I CAN'T do it on any other faction, I just can't because there is no foundation for me to start a squad. When new pilots ask for advice constantly on reddit, or here you know what they get told. People like jobiwan and breeje do try out the air and they get told keep trying, watch more video, practice your aiming and manuver. "ask for advice from a vet pilot, they be happy to answer" but never ****** ever have I heard them extending their hand to say lets fly together. As soon as any mention of an airsquad, its call a gank squad, or outfits doing their "ops" so its ok because its an "op".
    HERE is what I mean, the most recent new pilot looking for help on reddit.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/74zzph/rate_my_piloting_skills_xd_not_shooting_cause_i/
    Here is the last time I reply to a new pilot post.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/610rm2/how_should_i_practice_flying/
    Notice anything? Advice is cheap, dirt cheap, and its all the ****** same routine. Keep flying, keep practicing, watch more videos. Actually helping new pilot is harder because you have to make sure they follow order or bail their *** out when they inevitably overextend. Or in my case, giving multiple esf to new pilots who have crashed theirs.



    So no, I'm not twidling my thumb adam, but there is only so much I can do when the problem is a lot larger then me. I only help VS because I can only help vs. I will play/friend anyone willing; I will also lead/follow anyone willing and competent. My definition of a "good" fight is when I'm doing something with my friends. Maybe you meant a "fair" fight, then no, this is Planetside, I don't expect a fair fight nor will I give one. Same as when I tank on the ground, I don't wait for my faction's MBT to 1v1 a lightning. Don't ask for a fair fight in planetside, you either make it one or complain enough like what BURT did with the VP system on reddit; after losing time after time to soulfact and FPSK. Its not their fault the VP system was **** earlier anyways but they were the ones willing to play the game, build the hive and went hive busting; while BURT resorted to name calling and complaining.

    This is an inquiry just a day ago too. About connery.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/74wz0u/not_enough_nc_pilots_in_us_west/
    Its fine, when they do it, for LON3/CAKA to have untouchable Lib squads and people like majesticskywhale battle gal to fly.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Connery/comments/506u3b/nc_necromants_searched_to_revive_lon3/d71npop/
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Connery/co...learning_to_fly_and_are_being_taught/d7dwktu/
    I can't even discuss anything reddit because its a ********** of skyknights from airfit dogpiling me on at every turn, but at the end of the day, its they who ran for Emerald, they who abandoned their faction, their would be trainee pilots. Then looking back and calling Connery a ****hole for air because they don't get to play their "air game". Its not just Connery, every new pilot have the same problem in every other server.

    I have not read a single guide or watch a single video on the reverse manuver. What I've learn was all through practicing flying and shooting on live. If not for people like DonAlfrego or Grisha319 teaching and supporting me first hand, I would have given up on flying a long time ago too. I'm not the Problem, I'm the result.

    TLDR: The Problem isn't just that new pilot doesn't learn how to shoot, doesn't learn how to maneuver, or didn't practice enough in the VR. The Problem isn't solely nanite preservation. The Problem isn't that people aren't interested in flying, you wounldn't have people asking for advice otherwise. The Problem isn't new pilot get told all of this then they are sent out into a warzone, alone, and try to compete with season vet, with flak, with all the other faction's air, all on advices with a vague outline. You are looking for a scapegoat with your excuses and reasoning. Do not solely blame a player, a faction, a server or even the dev for the Problem, if you are involved in Planetside you are part of the Problem.
    • Up x 2