Vulcan Op or Up?

people are complaining about vulcan harasser only because vulcan is very adaptive and is basically made for harasser while the other ES AV secondarys are made for mounting on tanks.
think about it if a fast moving vehicle had a weapon that could adapt to attack med range or close range while not caring for how much bullets miss it will make people complain plus TR are supposed to have better AI because of their fire rate while vanu are made to killing people before they get in range to kill them and NC are made for hit and running or for the high aim high skill people and for AV

Yeah definitely doesn't need a buff to prowler variant, it may not be like an enforcer at very long ranges but it's very effective at closer ranges and still pretty decent at mid-long range.

The issues with the vulcan on the harrasser are it's a very fast (in more than one way), cheap, and highly effective means to take out the punch of any enemy force. Pulling 2-6 harrassers with vulcans tends to be a much faster and more effective way to take out an entire enemy armor column than tanks, heavies, or air every single time and this is what the trend has been lately. The TR will pull 6 harrassers with vulcans and wipe out a whole platoon's armor column in minutes. Yes the platoon will start to fight back as soon as it starts but generally by the time it starts the armor column is cut in half already and the rest of the TR's force has seen the opposition getting wiped out and swarms. I would say that the best means to adjust the Vulcan-H is to cut its clip size down thus slowing its overall dps. (More reloads.)

The slower speed and size of the prowler is what helps to balance out the crazy punch of the vulcan on it, I still feel the prowler variant is a little questionable but it's hard to say since people pull Vulcan harrassers far more than tanks right now.

I think you're getting into one of the major issues devs have with balancing TR there, the faction trait itself which I try not to talk about too much for that very reason. High fire rate, high clip & ammo pool size, moderate/average damage, and decently manageable recoil makes for highly prone to being OP weapons. The reason being is that you're getting more rounds into the target faster and accuracy is forgiven by the larger ammo pool which creates an easier play style & in some examples faster TTKs.

I have a feeling they're going to be trying to buff the NC/VS comps up to vulcan status from what I'm hearing about tank changes which could change the way all three factions play the game for better or worse. I personally haven't gotten to reading up on all that too much yet.

This.

The faction that gives up decent damage per magazine on almost all of their weapons in addition to lower velocities just to get no bullet drop should not have the most drop on it's main battle tanks main gun compared to the other empires main battle tanks main gun.

Good grace, I hope they never give nodrop to the main cannon of the Magrider. They'll make it a snail projectile to compensate, which is infinite worse. I'd rather they buff speed than give nodrop, any day.

In fact, I hope they remove nodrop from everything, so that piss poor excuse of a trait is out of the way, and VS get some proper buffs instead.

Yet... the stats tells us the Halberd > Saron.
So no, people don't use the Saron because it's good. They (and I) use it because PEW PEW PEW. It's VS, perhaps the most iconic VS ES gun we have in the game that's also good. Well, it or the PPA (on the scythe).
And because if the driver of the mag/harasser is of top quality you can make use of the slightly higher damage output/TTK (ofc assuming the gunner is good/great too).

That it lasts longer ammo-wise also helps (on the mag it means that the primary dictates resupply frequency rather than the secondary - minor detail).

So... seems you're wrong.
Both on the actual power of the saron (considering it's beat by the halberd) and for why people use it.

The downside of this is that it also means there's no benefit to being an "Expert Vulcan Gunner". There's a big gap between a noob Halberd and a veteran but not much between noob Vulcan and veteran. If your giant circular gun symbol has the target somewhere in it and you are holding mouse1, it doesn't get much better than that.

I am wrong because you claim I am? Sure, whatever.

One thing I note - you claim the VS use the Saron regardless if it's "suckyness" over the Halberd because ::VS:: and novelty.

Well, I'd love to be able to do that for TR as well, back before the boost for it, the Vulcan for the Prowler was practically never used.

::TR:: novelty had nothing to do with it. The Prowler's Vulcan was simply horrible. The only legit, practical alternative was Halberd, and is still in primary use by the TR. So the VS would use the Saron regardless of the Halberd being blatantly better - according to you - because it's a VS weapon, but somehow the TR won't use the Vulcan, even if it's the TR's ES-AV weapon?

Don't think that work that well. Frankly, I'm still sure the Saron is a viable alternative to the Halberd. Matter of fact, I think it's *BETTER* than the Halberd, but it's not my problem is VS won't use it and so if your right and the Halberd is more widely used, that's your loss.

And yet, you don't get to claim that VS simply chose to use the Saron *SOLELY* for the novelty of it, only to enable your argument that it's UP and worse than the Halberd. VS use the Saron because the Saron is pretty damned good.

If the overall VS viewpoint that the PPA is crap leads to nearly no-one using it, how come a simmilar argument for the Saron is ignored and the Saron is used despite Halberd being better?

Yeah, your argument don't make sense.

Saron is still good, and you should not be in a TR-weapon tread whining that VS weapons are UP or whatever.

"The harasser Magrider variant of the vulcan PPA is overpowered hands down. It is a weapon that is way too forgiving for the gunner due to the fact that it has such a large clip. The large clip allows a gunner to miss a ton of shots and still manage to kill armor infantry. The only way to dodge this weapon is to be out of sight which is a major disadvantage. You can dodge a saron Halberd or an enforcer by maneuvering well but not a vulcan PPA. Even experienced NC and VS harasser TR MBT crews have a hard time dealing with Vulcan Harassers. PPA-Riders. The Vulcan PPA lower the necessary skill ceiling for effective harasser Magrider PPA-Rider crews. That is why the battlefield is was saturated with vulcan harassers PPA-Riders compared with saron, enforcer, and halberd hrassers. Marauder, Canister and Fury MBT's.You don't need great aim to gun a vulcan PPA. That is the problem. Every other harasser Magrider gun requires good aim except for the vulcan PPA. It is a weapon so goddam easy to use that a monkey with an eye patch could be a successful vulcan PPA gunner. This gun needs deserved a nerf because it is was way too easy to use and does not require much gunner skill."

Welcome to our lives. Regardless of if your right or not, I shed no tears and have no pity left to give Every VS dying to the Vulcan is justifiably punished for the sins of their ZOE and PPA using forebears and will continue to suffer like this for the next 16 generations. Should the Vulcan-H be nerfed anytime soon it will be a travesty of justice, and for that reason I am sure it will be soon enough.

I'm not saying the Saron is bad. I'm saying that it's not better than the halberd. More fun, stylish and -Vanu-, but not better overall.
If you doubt it, why don't you go look up the Halberd and Saron on the Oracle? Go on. The Halberd > Saron in almost every metric. Notable exception being total playtime and total kills, one which really is a function of the other.

So you're right in that there's more people using the Saron than halberd, but again that has little to do with which gun is the better performer (again, that's the halberd).
It's because of the PRAISE VANU part, and because the Halberd isn't a directive for the Mag.
That's pretty much it for the "why".

For why TR don't use the Vulcan, there's two reasons.
One is that it was (on the Prowler) rather meh for a long time. So people got a distaste for it.
The other, and by far more important one is the sheer strength of the Prowler main guns, which isn't exactly going to encourage people gunning for them. It's worth mentioning that the Halberd (the "default" AV secondary) is often better than the primaries for dealing with the main targets of an MBT. Especially for the mag. Prowler is the opposite, where the primaries are outclassing the secondaries. The way anchor works reinforces this pattern.
Both of those will impact people's behaviour.


To sumarize: People use the Saron because of style points and directives.
People have been put off using the vulcan because if was really lacklustre for so long, made worse by anchor mode. And this sentiment has persisted past the buff (on the prowler - harasser vulcan use is completely nuts, dwarfing the saron use on mags).

You can tell a weapon will be overnerfed when the amount of users far exceeds the other factions. They'll overnerf it and keep it that way until the amount of users drops to those of the other factions, or less. PPA is the latest example.

http://ps2oraclestats.com/?stat=kills&weapon1=6121&weapon2=6123&weapon3=6126
Harasser Vulcan is OP without question. Neither the Saron or Enforcer support the close in and shred tactics that the Vulcan Harasser can pull off. The Vulcan is an entirely different beast from the other two and until harassers are made into paper dune buggies or the Vulcan is toned down TR players are going to continue causing the massive amounts of carnage they have been since the recent buff.

Honestly I'm kind of surprised there was even a buff at all. Harasser Vulcan was always fine but they decided to buff it along with the MBT version even though only the MBT version really needed it. Without a doubt you just can't try to symmetrically balance the two.

As an AV mag driver, Vulcans don't bother me I find them rather fun to fight. Just play smart; prioritize targets (fighting more then one harasser), be situationally aware and keep the rear of your tank away from them.

As far as the saron vs halberd goes.. each have their down roles and depending on your play-style will determine the use. For me I love the halberd its consistent in all aspects (up close, far away and on infantry/air) but use the Saron recently to help people with finishing their directives.

- Phatalend

saron is better than the halbred if 4/6 shots hit. on the mbt 284x6=1704 which if all hit is 704>1000 (halbred dameage on mbt) and 161<supernova fpc (vs mbt ap cannon) and 294>1410, damage of the PC, default VS mbt cannon. 284x4=1136, 136>1000 (halbred damage) reload is 0.25 seconds faster on saron, 25m/s higher velocity than halbred, 250<indirect damage than halbred but 0.5m greater splash radius.

Halberd cycle is faster (reload starts instantly, the saron takes time to empty the battery/capacitor), and doesn't have to deal with the CoF (and recoil, woo) of the Saron.
+ it 1-shots infantry. And it has better synergy with the peek-a-boom style of play.

not counting AI, which you shouldnt consider when talking about AV weapons, the COF is negligible within ~140m, can fire its entire clip battery thing in less than the time it takes to reload a halbred, all in all youll be firing at about the same rate as a halbred, and if youre in a magrider with a saron and miss you have 5 more shots, if they miss you they have a reload.

Don't kid yourself, the difference in AI capabilities matter.

And while yes the saron has a damage advantage it's small, and more often than not doesn't translate into a faster TTK on ground vehicles, sunderer excluded.
Also, you won't get all 6 saron shots airborne in 0.25 seconds (the difference between the two reload times), so overall the Halberd will cycle faster, without any concern for CoF (and recoil).


To clarify, I like the saron and it's what I use on my magrider/harasser. However that has more to do with the feel of the gun, not it's firepower (and because I'm over-aggressive player, which is where the Saron can leverage it's slight advantage). That said, the halberd has some very distinct advantages over it. An often overlooked one is the downwards aiming angle in addition to those I mentioned above.
For the damage advantage, it's a bit like the Enforcer in relation to the Halberd. Technically it has a higher DPS, but mitigated by the front loaded damage of the Halberd.

alright, you make valid points, and i must concede while the saron is better in numbers, in practice its on par. And as you said, i personally think the fact its slight damage advantage with room for forgiveness upon missing, meaning you dont have to sacrifice mobility on either the mbt or harasser (or as much) its pros outweigh the cons

Because this is not about balance, this is about whining to get developer attention onto a subject that doesn't really need it. A close range weapon performing better at close range than the other faction's long range weapons? This can't be! Nurf pls!!!1111!

******* CoD generation.

1. Vulcan isn't a close range weapon. It is a medium range weapon. Less than 2 seconds at not point blank range still puts it just .8 seconds longer than the enforcer.
2. Enforcer and Saron require some trigger discipline. Missing a single shot with either puts considerable length on your TTK. Vulcan is much more forgiving. Vulcan is a weapon that is dummy proof.
3. Vulcan isn't complete sh*t against infantry like the other two. An MCG without recoil but half the muzzle velocity. It feels very familiar to someone who plays with one. Is the Saron a Lasher? No the PPA is. Is the Enforcer a Jackhammer? Not even close. Vulcan is essentially the ES heavy gun on wheels and therefore easier to transition to.