VS weapon selection/arsenal need major buff/balance pass. 85% of VS arsenal selection is inferior

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Mystogan, Feb 26, 2015.

  1. Mythologicus

    Doesn't matter. The Orion has such good hipfire to begin with that its accuracy with a standard laser sight is on par with any other CQC-focused LMG with an adv. laser sight.

    Odd, but true.

    Though really, good hipfire on an LMG with 0.75 ADS is wasted, as anyone with experience with the SVA-88 will tell you.
    • Up x 1
  2. Jovisfulmina

    I looked at the stats about that, the moving hipfire CoF of MSW-R is 3.75, the Orion is indeed 3.5. But with adv.laser, MSW-R becomes 2,25 while the Orion with normal laser becomes 2,345. The difference is not huge but still in favour of the MSW-R, which also gets slightly better vertical recoil & horizontal tolerance, and faster reload.
    No massive differences (except for soft point ammo) but an accumulation of small perks. I'm not saying one is superior or inferior, just that the 0.75 ads is not for free, Orion trades other stuff for it and is not the straight upgrade some might think.

    For people interested, gun stats : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...ZOSWNaanFqSUVxLWc&f=true&noheader=true&gid=92
  3. Mongychops

    The thing is though, the Orion gets that extra hip-fire accuracy "for-free". With a 0.225 horizontal recoil LMG, especially since the LMG hip-fire nerfs over a year ago, you will usually use a forward grip. In this case, the fact that the MSW-R can equip an ALS is irrelevant.

    Now, a 0.225 horizontal recoil LMG without a grip can work (after all, that is what the Betelgeuse is, and that doesn't so people calling it OP), but no grip is a considerable penalty in most situations.

    I would list the MSW-Rs key points over the Orion as:
    • Soft point ammo
    • 0.35 ADS moving accuracy
    • Faster short and long reload times
  4. MikeyGeeMan

    Maybe best maybe not, but changes to said pistol will have more of an effect because of its adoption rate. It being a default pistol the changes are more sweeping since everyone has access to it.

    If the ads isn't such a big deal then lets lower it to .50. I am sure I would get plenty of objections
  5. Ballto21

    the only objection i can see coming up if magazine size. up it to a 75 round mag like most other vs lmgsand drop it to 0.5 and i seriously doubt many ***** would be given

    fun fact a sirius sx12 only has 27 less dps than an orion and an extra meter of max damage range with spa, as well as better hipfire and ADS
  6. nehylen

    As a stats/theorycraft geek, I do believe the infantry arsenal is worse off overall, although not to a point where it's something that awful as OP says.

    It's hard for me to see the 698x143 as an issue. It's effectively almost the same thing as 600x167 in raw damage. Sure it's worse within max damage range TTK with headshots, yet at the same time it's in theory better off past that range (at least in the close-medium range transition, not past that), and allows for more errors in CQC.

    And we do get some advantage on CME and our default (+default-based) carbines/AR in the form of lower standing ads CoF at 0.25 instead of the 0.30 of default NC or TR for the move+stand ads CoF.
    The 167&200 tiers guns have better standing CoF, which is the short end of the stick as far as i'm concerned. TORQ & Lynx do have the lower moving CoF too, but due to them needing to fire more for the same result, they lose in bloom and recoil.
    The only troublesome thing here is that NS-11C/A have that 0.25 moving CoF too, which makes our "S" carbine/AR a straight downgrade from them in most cases, unless UB attachments.

    The real issue is more the damage per mag one. Having a larger mag is better than having shorter reloads, and the usually shorter reloads on VS is barely shorter (if at all) than the typical 30x167 gun's.

    For me there's about 7~8 primaries which are lacking in some way, but in my opinion the problem isn't so much the lack of uniqueness which is the blame, as much as the exact contrary: lack of standardization:
    It's the lack of standardization that makes the Pulsar VS1/Equinox being ambivalent guns with their standard first shot recoil, but not the sustained accuracy for medium bursts thanks to high horizontal tolerance.
    If their tolerance had been within the standards of the other default & "S" ARs/carbines, including Solstice/Solstice SF, it would be a better gun.
    Same with the Pulsar LSW: if it had the same standards as Solstice, it could fit a role not that different from the GD-22s within NC's LMG arsenal instead of the "bad SVA" role.
    Same with Flare or Zenith, or Corvus: we would have no issues had they had the same recoil pattern (for Flare), or RoF as they should (750rpm and 550rpm).
    We probably wouldn't have issues with the Ursa either if its horizontal recoil+tolerance pattern was either akin to the Corvus' (good for short bursts) or of the Razor/Cougar (more adequate for medium-duration bursts) instead of being almost a straight downgrade to other LMGs.

    Some judgments of inferiority are also questionable: Sirius is a downgrade to Blitz if you ads with it: its stock recoil is all over the place. In ads, it's actually the worse stock recoil of any primary, only the stock TAR comes close. Hipfire-wise it's indifferent, honestly. Put a grip on said Sirius, and you now have a rather stable SMG (still worse per shot than Blitz, but same horizontal arc), except with 400m/s velocity (Blitz: 360m/s), which isn't all that bad.
    I also wouldn't call the Spiker a Desperado downgrade, it's truly a sidegrade to it at this point, the Cerberus/Rebel comparison is not that easy to make either.
    Also, Nebulas are a very competitive option for MAXes. The Quasar, but mostly Cosmos have no proper role, but to be honest the same could be said for their TR equivalents. I blame that relative uselessness mostly on the ext.mag option which makes mag size a non-issue for Blueshifts/Nebulas/Mercies/Onslaught.
    • Up x 1
  7. Mystogan

    We all know that Orion is one on Top 3/2 LMGs in game. That is not a point. Each faction has its own jewels. The point of this thread is that the rest of VS arsenal besides those few most used/great weapons in their categories are completely crap/nerfed versions of other faction weapons. This thread even stated that Orion is one among those very good VS weapons and do not need any changes.

    If I want to go competitive- I will grab my Orion, same as NC will grab Anchor and TR will grab MSW-R.

    However outside of comptetive gameplay, NC and TR can switch to many other fun, effective and usefull weapons in their category. While in VS I will keep using same weapons as in competitive gameplay, simply because the rest is trash and pain to use effectively. Getting directive weapons on TR and NC is nice adventure of using A lot of good different weapons (for example LMGs and Carbines for NC or AR and Carbines and pistols on TR). On VS hetting directive weapon is a painful path with a lot of frustration (especially in LMG, ARs and oh god…pistols department).

    Let me give you example:


    Lets take a look on Spiker- which was developed in lazy way by SOE just by trying to give VS worse Desperado. It is still worse Desperado. I don’t care if Spiker has better accuracy, better cone, better velocity. IT DOES NOT MATTER ON PISTOL! You pull secondary to finish your target before he will finish you. That means that what you want from pistol is:
    1. RAW DPS- Desperado, AMP, Reapeter
    2. Headshot power- Rebel, Cerberus
    3. Stopping Power- Commi and Underboss

    Reapeter is doing 1577 DPS in CQC, Desperado 1391 DPS, but has greater potential on Headshots. One is 3x 112 burst pistol, second 2x 167 burst pistol.

    So I ask: why being so lazy and give VS nerfed Desperado? We have 3x and 2x. Why not give VS 4x?

    For example: you decide to put new Spiker in between Reapeter DPS and Desperado DPS. Lets say about 1467 DPS. Spiker won’t be as good as Reapeter but also not as good in Headshots as Desperado. Middle road- like VS should be.

    So we give 4x burst 85 dmg bullets. And from than we calculate RPM to match DPS in between. As DPS is not as good as Reapeter we give it faster reload and more ammo in magazine, but worse accuracy and velocity than Desperado. Some tweaks here and there and voila- we have new Spiker- burst pistol effective there where burst pistol should be effective.

    So I ask- is it really so hard to develop something NEW for VS, instead of taking other weapons from NC and TR, nerf them and call them new VS weapon?

    VS need major (really major) number tweaks balance pass. It can be done. Just someone from DBG need to sit down whole day and just do it.
  8. Plastikfrosch

    I dont want faster reload (but the long reload makes no sence, since we only change a battery and we dont have to chamber a bullet) and i dont even need a bigger mag size but we have advanced alien tech, so our weapons should be light enough to have the 0,75 ADS multiplier --> especially the non-LMG weapons because they are not so big and should be lighter than them and it would give the factions with more damage per mag the chance to miss some shots ;P
  9. Kociboss


    0.75 is love. 0.75 is life.
  10. sindz

    It was sarcasm :(
  11. Foxirus

    I think they are going to route where high RoF guns can no longer reload reset the heat mechanic. While it was given this nerf, The weapons that had slightly reduced ammo counts were buffed to have the standard ammo of the non heat mechanic weapons.
  12. nukularZ

    Against an I win shield? Absolutely, since most of the game seems to play this class. I had a lot of issues going up against heavies with shield+nano with 30 round weapons. And not so much with the SMG I'm using right now that has 50. It's amazing how much I can miss with it and still get the kill. DPM is a big deal when you NEED to finish off your enemy in a single mag for anything CQC (most of the game). Especially one that might have something like over 1700 effective hp or so (I don't know exactly details but point being you need to land 50%+ more shots on a HA to get the kill which is in no way trivial with a 30 round weapon).

    Reload time would not help much either, as switching to the pistol in those situations doesn't seal the deal before you're dead.
  13. Shadowomega

    Some of the issues with the VS weapons in question is their bad Recoil Angle. A Good example is the Pulsar Series (Solstice is included as it is the true Pulsar C) it has 3 degrees of deviation on its right pull, creating a wider spread then any shooter would want. The Terminus has higher horizontal recoil but one degree of bullet deviation which is another reason why its favored for its accuracy.

    Another Comparison would be the NC EM1 and the VS Polaris both are nearly identical stat was but the Polaris is worse in the fact it has again 3 degrees of deviation compared to the EM1 which only has to deal with its horizontal recoil.
  14. Citizen H

    The VS have been running a scam on these forums from Day 1.

    This "boo hoo our weapons are underpowered" HOGWASH.

    From launch, both NC and TR agreed that Magriders were f***ing brokenly OP.
    VS swore up and down this was not the case. "They're way underpowered, we promise!"
    For six months this went on.

    Devs pulled the numbers. For every 1 Magrider killed, Mags were killing FOUR tanks of the other factions. Even after this, they only received a minor nerf.

    The VS are bald faced liars who organize forum campaigns to obfuscate that their faction is easy mode.

    Their guns are more accurate and do better damage per shot than the TR

    Their guns are more accurate and have a higher rate of fire than NC

    They generally already have the fastest reload speeds. (Why this isn't a TR trait when they're supposed to be the hardened career soldiers is beyond me)

    They have no bullet drop on most guns.

    Their INTENDED weakness, that their damage over distance would drop off faster than the other two factions, was REMOVED after an organized forum campaign by Redditers.

    Their guns now have NO drawbacks other than they sound stupid, and VS would lobby for nerfs to TR and NC if they felt they could on those grounds.

    Do not listen to the VS. Do not indulge in their little meta game of playing the poor underdog. They lie and play the victim. They always have. That's their real faction trait.
    • Up x 4
  15. Mythologicus

    One out of four, so I suppose it could be worse.
  16. Shadowomega

    Fact VS weapons are in the same Damage Tier as the TR 143 @ 10m.
    Fact VS has the same Horizontal Recoil as TR weapons.
    Fact VS Vertical Recoil is the same as the TR weapons.
    Fact VS have more First Shot recoil then comparable TR weapons.
    Fact TR have slow reloads due to the having extra ammo in their Magazines, also the Difference in reload isn't all that much .6 second more in some cases.
    Fact Bullet Drop on weapons that have it have been proven to be of little benefit with in this games combat range.
    That weakness was removed when it was proven that bullet drop was of Little benefit in current combat range as well as the slower projectiles speeds. The lower Projectile speed was deemed enough of a draw back.

    Oh and you point out the Magrider out performing two years ago as proof of VS being op is also full of bull. Lets see why.

    Point one: During that time Higby pointed out the More Magriders were running 2/2 then any other tank.

    Point Two: He also noted out of those Mags being pulled most of them were pulling with the Saron which was identical to the
    Halberd in damage had no drop, but had 200ms delay on firing just like the current rail jack, and was 50m/s slower then the Halberd/Enforcer. While Most Vanguard and Prowlers were still running their M20

    Point three: More of these mags were running FPC which is the AP primary while most Prowlers and Vanguards were still running HEAT Primary.

    Point Four: These Magrider Pilots where dumping more of their certs into improving their tank game play then the other facts.

    What does these point to? Organization, specialization, and more dedicated team play on one faction (Alot of VS players came in part of already organized outfits before release). As well as point out the weakness in the FTP model were you can buy weapons with cash early in game play. Had they waited another 6 months these numbers would have evened out as people learned to counter AP specialist tanks, and had more certs to spend on things they would use.
  17. Mystogan

    That is all total BS. TR and VS share usual same ROF - 750 at TOP. While VS half weapons have 698 ROF or even lower (CORVUS) while TR has more ROF on average, getting more 750 options than VS.

    On Average VS have faster ROF than NC, but NC have access to AR and Carbine department to also fastest ROFs and two unique for them models - 500/200 and 600/167. While TR got recently their 909/125, VS still have none unique model for them. Only nerfed NC/TR stuff. So it is 2:1:0.

    VS guns are not more accurate. VS guns have biggest first shot recoil with medium horizontal recoil. TR weapons have much lower vertical and FSR but more random horizontal recoil. However in many weapons VS have both worse stats and at the same time lower rate of fire.

    NC weapons are most accurate across all three factions and that is a fact only idiot wouldn't admit. NC weapons have tighest/smallest horizontal recoil, highest on average bullets velocity and their vertical recoil is higher while FSR is lower than VS. So all what NC has to do is to pull mouse down to compensate for vertical recoil. That can be done. But you can't compensate for horizontal shakes or recoil.

    TR and VS have to fight with random/bias shakes and horizontal spread. NC pull mouse down in 90% cases.

    So before you will post your nonsenses do some homework. NC has most accurate weapons. Hell, even Jackhammer is most accurate shotgun from all empires.

    I know long hate for VS becasue of few OP things they had. But fact is a fact- most VS arsenal is sub-par to other two Empires.
    • Up x 1
  18. vanu123

    Just about every thread about VS is either:
    B: VS is completely worthless outside of: Orion, Pulsar C, Terminus/Hv45, SVa-88, Zeinith, etc.
    VS weapons do need buffs, but sweeping buffs as much as I'd love them, will almost certainly never happen.
  19. vanu123

    The aurax heat weapons can't reload.
  20. FnkyTwn

    Right.. i was comparing the two. Fastest reloads would be.. fast, and the heat mechanic is also.. fast. So those guns without the heat mechanic would get faster reloads, with the overall faction trait being fast reloads or heat.