"VS OP" Why?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Vanguard540, Jan 14, 2020.

  1. sadharm0nica

    No faction is OP by itself, it's the population that makes it so. Switch servers and you'll quickly understand what I mean - the underdog of one server is the plsnerf of another.

    Tbqh the memed no-bullet drop makes impact only when you shoot from 150+ meters (sniper rifles). And even then the feature isn't available on OHK rifles, so even VS has to aim. It's true that noob infils get slack if they play VS, but they'll also have harder time adjusting to more powerful rifles. "But muh CQC sniping". In close quarters, it's easy to factor in the slight bullet drop.

    "VS guns are quieter". Yes, but VS gun sound is very distinct, so while TR can misinterpret NC shooting nearby as some lone TR, clocking VS is pretty much instantaneous.

    Anyways, the real defining factor is the skill of the player. You can take down anyone with anything, as long as you're faster and smarter than them. Faction benefits only matter when it comes to vehicles and newbies, in all other situations you're the only thing that got you killed.
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  2. Campagne

    For the record, I don't think the VS are overpowered. I think they have a lot of good and a lot of "meh."

    People seem to think wild things on both ends of the spectrum, but in my opinion the VS are balanced okay.

    I don't think this is true. From all I've ever seen the only disadvantage no projectile drop brings is a projectile velocity decrease, if any penalty is even present.

    All weapons sacrifice something. I think you're just misattributing this to the lack of gravity.

    Do you have any specific examples?

    ...Did you even read the OP? :p

    But anyways, completely different weapons, not comparable.

    I've been on the internet for too long, it has corrupted me.

    I imagined something else in my mind when I first read that...[/quote]
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  3. Vanguard540

    It's a skyrim reference.
  4. Campagne

    Oh my sweet summer child, you are too innocent for this world. :p
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  5. Blam320

    VS has historically had several weapons that were very overpowered before they got nerfed. The Zealot Overdrive Engine, the Lancer, and the Canis (specifically, the original iteration of the Unstable Ammunition attachment) are all noteworthy examples.

    Trouble is, VS also has several "unorthodox" mechanics that seem broken overpowered on paper. Unlimited Ammo via the Heat buildup mechanic, unlimited range with no bullet drop, et cetera. Most people don't seem to realize that these mechanics are very gimmicky. No bullet drop, for one, barely comes into play at the ranges most engagements take place at. Unlimited ammo also barely makes a difference thanks to the presence of engineer ammo packs and the ammo printer implant. Though to be fair, overheated weapons do cool down while holstered, which is a decently strong tool for keeping people active in a fight longer, without worrying about spending more time to reload after switching weapons again.

    On top of that, regardless of what server you're on it would seem like the VS are regularly the ones to take advantage of the NC and TR farming each other at a biolab to capture most of the continent uncontested, usually with one or two large zergs doing most of the work. This results in a hefty amount of confirmation bias that the "Vanu are OP," which then leads to the TR and NC not wanting to fight the VS, which then allows the cycle to repeat. The few times the Vanu lose are when the TR and NC decide they're done fighting each other, and both decide to beat back the VS. Which itself may well lead to confirmation bias that the VS are OP, since it's taking the combined effort of two factions to retake all of the territory.
  6. Terrince

    I play on Connery and only TR. Why I think VS are OP?

    Just a few things (Don't want a long post)
    I can't tell you how many times (And I'm not kidding here) I've dumped 1/3 of a clip (And it doesn't matter what gun I'm using) into a
    VS HA's head within 5-10m and they turn around and two shot me (anywhere on the body) with the Orion or Betelgeuse. I VERY rarely get this from NC, but I can practically guarantee it every day from VS.

    The magrider can get up were no other MBT can get, (It is king on Hossin) It can catch a maxed out, racer chassis, Flash and Harasser! Don't get me wrong, I'm good with it hovering/strafing but being able too keep up with those two? No.

    As for alerts (On Connery)
    VS win most on Connery at prime time. Mostly because NC don't want to fight them. (Just ask them!) Now TR goes into farm mode once we KNOW it's lost.
    So to combat this, TR have started focusing 1st place and ignore 2nd/3rd place, leaving them to sit and ghost cap bases w/ no fighting. (Which I assume gets boring)
    Of course there is time for one to fight both but when you got NCorVS 45% VSorNC 35% and TR 20% with 25 mins left. Why would you stay and fight the nearly warpgated team as first place takes yours?

    (Maybe there should just be 2 factions? Almost is, on Connery:( )
  7. JibbaJabba

    Wasn't specifically replying to the OP but yeah.

    That is indeed the common perception.

    Everything is comparable though and the EM6 with extended mags compares quite well to the betel. I know a lot of guys that dig the betel that absolutely gush over the EM6.

    The betel has kinda meh hipfire and horizontal recoil due to no Orion attachments. The EM6 handles better (and accuracy better on paper). The heat mechanic gets offset by the insane mag sizes on the EM6. EM6 doesn't have the downtime mid fight though.

    If you're not swayed that's cool. But for your consideration:

    • Up x 1
  8. Demigan

    Also for consideration since base stats are misread so much that you are often better off with the performance stats:

    Uniques (I added the Anchor as it is often named as one of the other OP NC LMG's):


    Q4 KPU:
    Q4 uniques:
    Its quite telling that a directive reward weapon sees more use than a supposedly superior non-directive weapon.

    So basically the EM6 is performing vastly inferior to both the Anchor and Betel. I have to agree with Campagne that these weapons arent comparable.
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  9. pnkdth

    It is extremely unlikely everyone who is using the EM6 is using it with ex mags. Hit point is that EM6 with ex mags functionally works in a similar way, not that it is the only way or that the majority of players use it in this manner. In other words, the data does not actually disprove, or even address, his statement. I use the EM6 in this manner myself because of those 200 bullet never seems to end and when everyone's reloading I'm still pushing.

    The VS meta is Orion/BG it is no surprise it has such a high number of uniques. The rest of the LMGs are just there as a mandatory chore to get the auraxium done. I'm fond of the 143/698 model but judging from the Promise threads and other HA discussions I'm pretty much alone there. The MAW was an interesting addition but its s*** recoil pattern makes it a poor imitation of the glorious Anchor.
  10. Demigan

    If I am reading this right your only comparison between the EM6 and the Betel is their sustainability, and not their actual performance based on hipfire, ADS, damage model, ROF, recoil etc? That way you can say that any large magazine weapon is similar to the Betel.

    The point is that the Betel's heat mechanic allows players to easily use the betel as a high-capacity weapon, even though the weapon is balanced as a low-capacity weapon (as far as you can call 50 bullets a low-capacity weapon). This is easily visible in the performance differences. And if the high magazine version of the EM6 really is so good that Betel veterans are "gushing" about it as has been said, wouldnt people have noticed by now? We are talking about a 2 to 3x higher performance that the EM6 suddenly overcomes by equipping a high capacity magazine. That is kind of noticeable.

    So yes this actually does adress and disprove the point that the EM6 can work in a similar way unless you believe that the extended mags allow the EM6 to suddenly get 2 to 3x more useful and actually rival or even beat the Betel.
    Since it doesnt beat the betel by a long shot and extended mags doesnt solve the differences in damage model and accuracy the EM6 can safely be said not to function similarly to the Betel. Not unless your standards are so loose that a sniper can be compared to an SMG "because they deal damage through bullets".
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  11. That_One_Kane_Guy

    It's a three-faction game, one of them has to be the Boogeyman. The community just chose the one wearing spandex.
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  12. Qwicked

    If you look at data, with a pre-conceived assumption, the data will always support it.
  13. pnkdth

    The ability to "endlessly" keep up the pressure, having a primary ready when ressed, and easily be able to choose the right time to reload is amazing. I have no way of knowing who uses what attachment configuration hence why I do not consider the data representative.

    As for why it hasn't caught on yet, I made that point already, but to TL;DR version is the collective wisdom of the community + cookie cutter answers when people ask for advice. Much like how VS players are told to just stick with the Orion and only use the others to get the directive. Hard to shift this "wisdom" once it has been established.

    Furthermore, since for the longest time slugs were being pushed as useless and unreliable here I have scant regard for the opinion of the masses. If people want to be stubborn and remain ignorant, so be it.
  14. Campagne

    Needless to say, I disagree.

    I suppose the two are comparable in the obvious sense that the two are both LMGs, but this is largely where the similarities end.

    I'm not sure those listed stats are very accurate, as it lists the BG's magazine at 65 which is wrong as well as a faulty projectile velocity. Personally I go by the PS2 wiki, which has been more accurate in the past to the best of my knowledge. PS2.Fisu also has connectivity issues for me and half the time won't work at all. :confused:

    Besides though, the false stats listed by that site are almost universally in favour of the BG...

    Anyways, the only metrics which the EM6 is better is damage per shot, minimum damage range, higher muzzle velocity, larger magazine if both weapons are fired to "empty," a faster long reload, horizontal recoil and FSM. It's also ever so slightly more accurate if fired while totally stationary.

    In exchange, the Betelgeuse has a higher RoF, shorter short "reload" (4.583s from 49 consecutive shots to cool), infinite ammo, infinite magazine given trigger control, better hipfire and lower hipfire bloom, and better vertical recoil. The BG is more accurate when fired while strafing, notably due to the abnormally low 0.04 bloom.

    The two are just completely different beasts and behave in different ways. It's not entirely unrealistic to have the opinion the EM6 is better but it's certainly not one I would share and I doubt many others would either. Not to say the EM6 isn't good mind you. Easily my favourite NC LMG behind the GODSAW, if not my first favourite.
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  15. blackboemmel

    There are only 2 empire specific Vehicles. Scythe has always been the strongest ESF, Magrider had been more or less balanced over the years, but is straight OP atm.

    As a vehicle main my opinions about infantry balance are worthless, but for sure the colour scheme gives Vanu soldiers an advantage at night.
  16. Demigan

    As I already pointed out, you are basically saying that just because a weapon has a deep magazine it is similar to the Betel. The Betel is 2 to 3 times better than the EM6, yet you are acting as if the addition of extended mags over any other attachment suddenly bridges that gap and makes the EM6 function the same as the Betel.
    Since we can say with certainty that the extended mags do not magically make the EM6 function 2 to 3 times better than without we can say that the data is representative. In fact the Anchor is the closest weapon in the NC arsenal to the Betel due to it's accuracy, recoil, ROF+damage profile DPS etc.

    How cookie cutter is an answer that says "because it has a deep magazine it functions like a weapon that has 2 to 3 times the performance"?

    Don't get me wrong, many people do show ignorance. The mass-delusion that 0,75 ADS was some kind of magic stat that made a normal weapon into a WMD for example. But this isn't about that, this is about direct performance. The Betel outperforms the EM6 by a mile and a half, the Anchor which is relatively similar at a glance (same damage profile as the Anchor, same damage falloff, same ROF, same muzzle velocity) also outperforms the EM6 by a landslide. It is quite telling that the Betel still keeps up with the Anchor even though the Anchor has an advanced laser sight available ofcourse giving credence to the fact that the HEAT mechanic is a powerful tool while a larger magazine simply is not comparable.

    The end result is that regardless of delusions of bad advice of players, the EM6 is nowhere comparable to the Betel.
  17. pnkdth

    Just because you keep repeating yourself does not mean that I will go, "oh, I guess I haven't been using the EM6 in this manner." This was exactly how the discussions went with the NC MAX and slugs. I kept getting stats and comparisons which just made think they never actually had used them (or even tried) yet felt they should tell those who had they were wrong. Simply put, there is no reason to assume a significant part of the EM6 users actually do use ex mags on their EM6. Indeed, it seems most haven't even thought about doing so.

    Yes, it is almost as if being able to be in constant farm mode causes a weapon to see significant performance gains, isn't it? Plus, if all the other things you list off as so important then why isn't the Orion simply blowing everyone's minds? Also, has similar performance to the EM6 in the Q4. So what is the difference here... What is the reason the BG which is an attachment free Orion with a very very deep magazine size suddenly performs better? Can't put my finger on it...

    I hope at least some NC players give the ex mag:ed EM6 a proper chance thanks to this thread. Might accidentally enjoy yourselves too.
    • Up x 1
  18. JibbaJabba

    Someone will try it and see. :p
  19. Blam320

    Dumping a full mag into someone and not being able to kill them is either a ping issue or you just not aiming for the head.

    Your statement about Magriders being able to catch up to Flashes and Harassers is just plain wrong. True, the Maggie is the most mobile of the three MBTs, but as a trade-off it's also the slowest. Magburner is good for bursts of speed, but it isn't viable for distance travel or chasing down a target in many scenarios.

    And of course, TR and NC ignoring VS during a lock alert is entirely the fault of the NC and TR, not the VS (unless TWC2 is brainlessly zerging and killing fights, then it becomes no fun for anyone). If you want to stop the VS from taking the continent, actually fight back. Muster a platoon or two to counter the TWC zerg. I guarantee as soon as you "ruin the farm" they'll redeploy to another lattice.
  20. Gooyoung

    I also see this super often. If I see heavy and got killed in 2 shot, it is ALWAYS a beetlejuice.
    Same server with Terrince, most NC and TR avoid fighting the VS because it's just somehow more annoying. Apart from weapon, skill gap between player is also far more visible. Theres that one VS guy that is super infamous for being able to solo break one squad push that is all standing by ON POINT, not trickling down, with a HA beetlejuice. Sure skillplay should be rewarded but come on, how many TR or NC have that fame or even if there is a skilled one, does the weapon allow that skillplay? Imma try remembering the guys name

    Ok weapons aside, MAX and magriders of VS tactical advantage is ridiculous and I just realized it yesterday in Emerald. This hurt me more than it should.

    2 platoons of armor push with repair sundies on Indar got demolished from ONE HEX AWAY by maxes sniping from top of cliffs. No way anything could counter that. This is a huge 48-96 fights on the far southeast side of Indar (forgot the name). Prowlers that are supposed to be the BEST at long range siege can't counter those maxes for crap and we keep getting chased by magriders left and right coming from platforms that is impossible to reach except by galdrop. Natural gun elevation can't even reach them unless we angle by ramming a hill, and that puts us in super disadvantageous position. In a huge battle like this, suddenly the difference became so obvious since the option of "galdropping those max sniper with infantry" require more than a squad

    What I mean is, the tactical advantage of ignoring terrains+mobility and have the longest range AV on Max is kind of ridiculous
    I had far more better armor fights with NC. Their MAX crosshair tracking AV is at least still better as in at long range accuracy is a huge issue. Their tanks follow normal tanks pattern and we both know our weaknesses and strength. NC are using heavy tanks, high firepower and armor but slow speed, and TR is medium tanks, lower armor, similar firepower, but faster. Guaranteed to lose close quarter but can still win with well placed terrain cover. Both also have bullet drop so long range fights isn't that easy either (yes prowler can deploy but then it sacrifices mobility where the NC can shoot us consistently once they got the bullet arc). Long rangefight with NC armor is also still viable. Their movement are limited to where the tanks are facing so here, both party know where the enemy is. VS, however, are far harder to shoot due to multi directional movement AND you can't even predict where they are heading. Sniping them? those maggies can move left and right like infantry. Hiding from CQC using natural terrain? Nope terrain doesn't exist for VS tanks. Also running isnt that easy once its close enough because of the booster of magriders that can just skip the whole terrain that usually blocking our escape route.

    Don't get me started for the aim. It's super smooth due to the hovering. You can shoot while moving or strafing while we need to take care of even the slightest bump affecting accuracy. I mean, yes bullet drop of the Magrider is bad and bullet speed is also slower, but guess what else is even slower? Our ability to evade it. It's too predictable where VS or TR will go based on the face of the tank and the origin speed. Its either backward, forward, or stopping No way we can suddenly strafe right while moving backwards.

    Ramming those magriders are also hard AF. Lightnings and harassers just moved below it like wtf. The combo of magrider mobility plus maxes long range AV sniping makes armor fighting really tougher compared with when fighting NC or TR.
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