[VS] Best suppressed option?

Discussion in 'Light Assault' started by Grumblefern, May 9, 2015.

  1. Grumblefern

    I've been trying the Serpent but finding it kind of underwhelming, even at ranges that feel short to me it feels weak. I understand the downside of suppressors of course, but I wasn't expecting such a dramatic reduction in effectiveness beyond very short ranges.

    Granted I am used to the Pulsar C, and the Serpent also has the lowest velocity of any carbine plus extra tier of drop off. I wish we had something like the Terminus as a Carbine but alas, the Zenith is the closest we get to "just under the RoF that warrants a drop-off penalty" and Zenith doesn't have soft point and just kind of sucks.

    I am wondering if MKV suppressed would be worth it over using a suppressed carbine, or if there's some magic option I'm overlooking. None of the ES VS carbines feel suited to a suppressor for me.
  2. Iridar51

    From my gunplay guide:

    As sad as it may sound, the best "VS" suppressed carbine is probably NS-11C.

    Reasoning: unfortunately, entire VS carbine lineup, including common-pool NS-11C, suffers from mediocre velocity, even the supposedly good at range Pulsar C. And to make matters worse, Pulsar C doesn't get a lot from HVA, which bumps up its velocity to only 550 m/s. Incidentally, same velocity the NS-11C has with HVA.

    So in terms of velocity, you're choosing between NS-11C with HVA and Pulsar C with HVA. And Pulsar C already has kinda high vertical recoil, so using HVA on it will come at a noticeable penalty, while NS-11C barely has any vertical recoil at all.

    NS-11C also has higher rate of fire due to lower damage tier, which benefits the suppressor, and using an NS weapon provides stealth advantage, especially for VS, and that 75% ADS sure is nice.

    MKV Suppressed is a downgrade to suppressed NS-7, so use that if you want a suppressed SMG. It fits the advantages above, having high-RoF and low damage degradation, and SMG suppressor penalties are relatively small.

    Just be aware that an SMG is a weapon one class lower in terms of versatility and usability over range. The velocity difference is not huge: NS-7 suppressed velocity: 320 m/s, NS-11C and Pulsar C suppressed velocity 358 m/s. But at certain range (about 30m+) NS-7's accuracy starts to fall off due to SMG-tier horizontal recoil and bad starting CoFs.

    I'd recommend using NS-11C with HVA and forward grip if you want a suppressed carbine for VS. It will kill enemies painfully slow at close ranges, so try to avoid CQC. Keep enemies at ~20-30m, where you can take advantage of you weapon's accuracy. Suppressed weapons are not about firepower anyway, not unless we're talking about super close ranges, in which case you got all you need with the Serpent.
  3. Corezer

    default solstice?
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  4. _itg

    I agree, the Solstice makes sense. If you're considering the NS-11C, you lose 0.75x ADS (less relevant on a suppressed weapon because you want to be shooting people who aren't shooting back) but you gain DPS (always relevant). Accuracy is similar and the velocity difference is minor, but you get VS no-drop trait, which eliminates one of the major drawbacks of low velocity. Possibly the best reason to prefer the NS-11C here is its non-faction-specific sound and tracers, which give you an extra layer of stealth. That's not an easy effect to quantify, but then again, neither is the benefit of a suppressor.

    I actually like the MKV pretty well, by the way. I wouldn't expect the extra 29 RPM over the NS-7 to make much difference in theory, but in practice it feels a lot better to me. The MKV's rightward pull is more familiar, which may be part of the reason I like the gun better. On the other hand, a suppressed PDW will kill a bit faster at range due to one less tier of damage dropoff, but you're a bit outside either gun's element at the range where the difference comes into effect.
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  5. Grumblefern

    You know, the Solstice has grown on me. I might try it with a suppressor for awhile - and without. I really should start auraxiuming non-Pulsar C weapons anyway. I still haven't even got auraxium with Orion. D:

    Solstice not a very "punchy" weapon, but it's not quite 652 RoF TTK either. It points basically where you shoot it. It can't quite reach as far as a Pulsar C but is a hell of a lot easier to run and gun/ hip-fire with. Reload is like goddamn lightning. Ease of use factor is super high and it's just all around practical. Maybe I've been underrating it.
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  6. Iridar51

    You forget NS-11C has HVA, which almost completely negates suppressor's penalty to minimum damage range. At crucial 25-35m range, NS-11C will do more DPS than Solstice, assuming suppressor on both.

    Imagination. Difference between 750 and 779 RoF is 3-4%. If you didn't know there's a difference, you wouldn't notice it. Recoil pull is much more believable. That, or just the need to justify even using it over NS-7.
    PDW will kill faster at 27m+. Long-ish range for an SMG, but still very doable.
  7. Corezer

    I the NS-11C does kill faster within a small window due to HVA, but I find the difference negligible much like PDW vs MKV up close, and at ranges further than that you can hit targets and have a greater chance of killing them outright before they start to move evasively, and even with the lower velocity I find it easier to lead a little more than compensate for both lead and drop. Then there's the close range performance to keep in mind too...

    I mean I wouldn't call it the best suppressed weapon in the game, but I would certainly call it as good at least.
  8. repairtool6

    Imo Pulsar C is easily the best carbine in the game to use with suppressor.
    Use that for 'normal' stealth combat where u mix between ranges and play dynamic.

    Use MKV for more closerange.
  9. _itg

    That's a valid point.

    I don't feel any need to justify the MKV. More than anything, I'm trying to explain why I do better with the MKV and why it feels more effective, when I expected to like it less than the PDW, by the numbers. 3-4% RoF isn't easy to feel, but it does lessen the TTK gap against higher-DPS weapons by a couple hundredths of a second, and it's that much less time for a target to run away. Both can sometimes make an objective difference in combat.

    Incidentally, people generally like the Sirius/Blitz and hate the Hailstorm, all because of a 5% difference in RoF. The Hailstorm is even more accurate than the Sirius, but people don't give it credit for that.

    Well, it's slightly more complicated than that, since the MKV may drop slightly faster over the same distance, but there will be stretches between 24.5m (MKV's first dropoff) and 35m (MKV drops below 100) where both guns are in the same damage tier, and the MKV wins in those ranges. The PDW wins beyond that, of course, by a few hundredths of a second.
  10. Iridar51

    TBH, after I realized that Armistice is the only SMG with decent DPS, I started considering every non-NS-7 SMG kinda bad too. Hailstorm is just the worst out of the unimpressive bunch.

    NS-7 is another story entirely due much better accuracy stats and damage drop off ranges, which allow it to do damage more consistently.

    I don't know where you got these numbers. Forgot to apply SPA and suppressor?

    NS-7 PDW with Suppressor and SPA: 125 @ 17m - 100 @ 55m, 750 RoF, 304 m/s velocity.
    _________MKV Suppressed with SPA: 125 @ 15m - 91 @ 42m, 779 RoF, 313 m/s velocity.

    NS-7 BTK Thresholds: 0-17 (8), 18-38 (9), 39+ (10).
    MKV BTK Thresholds: 0-15 (8), 16-26 (9), 27-34 (10), 35+ (11).

    NS-7 and MKV are "within same damage tier" between 0 and 26m, and that's where MKV technically wins due to miniscule advantage in RoF, but NS-7 will still do more damage per bullet after 15m, which can be useful when dealing with non-full-health targets.

    At 27m+ MKV starts to do the same damage per bullet that NS-7 does at 39m+, which is enough to make NS-7 better at 27m+ despite lower RoF.
  11. _itg

    Sorry, I mean to say "second tier of dropoff" at 24.5m on the MKV. I did apply SPA. However, I thought the NS-7's MAX damage and min damage were 15m and 40m respectively with SPA and a suppressor? I can't find any data on this. I guess you're applying the reduced penalties other SMGs get.
  12. Iridar51

    NS-7 stock: 125 @ 15m - 100 @ 65m. Info is in game or here.
    SPA: +5m maximum damage range, SMG suppressor: -3m maximum damage range, -10m minimum damage range.
  13. _itg

    Yeah, I'm aware of the base stats. It's the suppressed stats I was unsure of. It seems awfully stupid of the devs to make a gun whose whole shtick is that's got better suppressed stats than other SMGs, and then give it worse suppressed stats than the most comparable gun. I wouldn't put it past them, though.
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  14. Iridar51

    Effects of the suppressor have been datamined too, they're on the page "notes about gun/rocket stuff" of the spreadsheet.
    Alternatively, you can just go to VR, equip the rangefinder and test things for yourself. I already did that and confirmed the -3, -10 for SMGs. I've done some other tests with the suppressor, results are in my gunplay guide.
  15. _itg

    Some quick VR testing with the rangefinder implant shows that the suppressed PDW's (with SPA) damage dropoff starts at 15m. 8 shots to kill at 14m, 9 at 15m.
  16. Iridar51

    Keep in mind rangefinder gives a 1m error in one of the directions, don't remember which one.
  17. _itg

    That's still not in agreement with the 17m max damage range. I tested with the AC-X11 as a "control," and it works as expected: 5 shots to kill at 9m, 6 at 10m, as measured by the range finder.

    Edit: 10-shot kill range starts at about 35m.
  18. Iridar51

    When it comes down to the difference as small as 1m, rangefinder becomes inconsistent. I've redone some of the testing myself just now, here's what I got. Note that I do all my tests on non-infiltrator dummies since they have 100 less shields.

    NS-7 stock breaking point is 14-15m, even though 15-16m is expected - the rangefinder error I was talking about.

    NS-7 SPA breaking point is inconsistent at 19m: sometimes kills in 8 shots, sometimes 9. Overall, this breaking point is in line with expected SPA's bonus 5m to max damage range.

    NS-7 SPA + Suppressor: breaking point is 14-15m, which is unexpected. Maybe they changed SMG suppressor's penalties when they rebalanced suppressor long time ago.

    The second breaking point is confirmed at 34-35m, which is in line with -10m penalty to minimum damage range

    Also did some tests with Hailstorm. Stock breaking point is 4 to 5m, and with suppressor it kills in 9 shots even when rangefinder shows 1m.

    So I guess for now we can assume that SMG suppressor penalties are 5m to maximum damage range and 10m to minimum damage range. You were correct to doubt me :)
  19. Grumblefern

    I've decided I'll use NS-11C w/HVA once I get it w/suppressor, when I want to be stealthy. Pulsar C for all-rounder. Serpent for close ranges.

    Solstice for a little while was feeling good but I'm getting tired of it already. It's just no Pulsar C. I miss the extra damage per mag, especially against HA. And of course the Pulsar C is much better for headshots beyond close ranges at least.
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