[Video] My thoughts on ZOE

Discussion in 'MAX' started by Ned, Dec 3, 2013.

  1. Predator01cz

    I think this whole thing was really well thought through by SOE to deepen the LORE a bit

    Just think about it, they give VS almost godly ability against which we're obviously going to speak out.
    I mean think about the pre-nerf NC MAXes, except now they can kill just as easily at all ranges, reload time is laughable at best and on top of that they outrun infantry. (And remind me how long we enjoyed our Phoenix when it did OHK infantry, or how long did TR harvest XP with their Strikers, or how many days did it take the NC Max to convince the whole community including devs, that it needs immediate nerfs)

    And suddenly you have all the ZOE apologetics popping out immersed deep in their belief that ZOE is ok and we just need to l2p and we are deluded by all those statistics showing bars of infantry kills per max for VS far exceeding NC and TR, as they are purely work of devil trying to make us disbelief in the righteousness of Vanu gods who shall smite us through the hands of their holy glowing crab followers and Hallelujah



    Well butter my freedom biscuit, load up my freedom jackhammer, load up my shrike, equip nanoweave, turn on resist shield and watch me....

    ...how I stunt myself with my own concussion grenade, shoot the nearest wall with my shrike and empty half of my jackahmmer into the ZOE while making his day alongside with all his pocket engies. Then wait till respawn and try again.
  2. Ned



    Mosquito Hellfire?

    All rocket pods are basically the same, I agree with the rest (Fractures getting nerfed) But I havent seen anything about the hellfire for like 8 months
  3. RogueVindicare

    If anything, I hear most pilots like the VS Rocket Pods the best. Something about tandem firing? I'm not a pilot myself.
  4. Rogueghost

    The TTK between rank 1 ZOE and max rank in terms of bullets used is identical, it takes one less bullet, the only point in ranking it up past the first rank is if you want to dominate other maxes.

    While on paper one more bullet does not sound like much, in my experience using a VS max with and without zoe, as well as fighting against them, it does make a surprisingly huge difference.
  5. Qraven

    All I really got out of it was someone that doesn't actually understand an ability, talking about an ability. You didn't know how the damage was increased, you didn't know by how much, and you didn't know the level at which ZOE must be certed to even gain the practical value of 1 less bullet TTK. You, like so many others, stop at the 'does more damage' and completely tune out reality.

    As for the statistics that you referenced, you left off the real interesting one; which was that VS maxes prior to the update, were pulled 60% LESS often than NC and TR maxes. The kills, KDR, accuracy, etc that you are referencing and comparing across the factions prior to the update, was from a significantly smaller pool in regards to the VS data sample.

    The most hilarious fact out of all this, is that the changes being done to ZOE are going to be an overall buff to VS max play. 98% of the gamers that talk about ZOE, don't understand ZOE; case-in-point... this thread. The comment about leaving ZOE on all the time goes to show how most players are doing it wrong...

    What is going to be really funny, is when all the sudden VS maxes are 30% more durable on average after the timer update is added, and ZOE is only used for mobility.
  6. Ned


    I like the part where you completely ignore the main jist of my video
    • Up x 1
  7. EliteEskimo


    You could ask that question back when NC Maxes were Instagibbing TR/VS Maxes for months with no change. Lets see what else we could apply the "What was SOE thinking?!?" question to.

    What were they were thinking by introducing weapons like the AV Turret, making it laser guided, and giving it a vehicle render distance range when the game has huge problems rendering things at long ranges. The AV turret continues to ruin open field battles and remain one of the most OP things in the game. Lets hope they actually reduce the range to 300m in the upcoming balance patch....

    Why did they give the TR Max the Lockdown ability again after the TR in PS1 hated it so much and for so long the developers gave them an all new ability which is mobile (Overdrive). Standing still in this game in a huge liability, so why would you want an ability that locks you in place?:confused:

    What were they thinking when they went from dedicated AV or AA rocket launchers to AV/AA rocket launchers that could make the HA an Anti-Everything Class all in one loadout?

    What were they thinking releasing rocket pods on the ESF which could kill a MBT in 1.5 seconds?

    Now some of these questions can easily be answered with "It was a cash grab". However other decisions like giving TR a Lockdown ability, letting NC Maxes instagib other Maxes for many months, and now ZOE leaves you wondering what the intentions of the developers are. It's one thing to make a bad game decision/addition, but it's something else entirely when you let that bad decision plague your game for several months on end without doing anything to properly fix the decision you made.
  8. Cinnamon

    ZOE max always has both the initiative and the ability to almost instantly kill. It's a hilariously bad idea. I don't know what that says about SOE or our community but there you go.
  9. Amrok1


    I realize this was an honest mistake and you apologized for it, but you are bringing up the subject with the purpose of proposing changes. For this reason it is a big deal as being accurate with the subject is paramount when making suggestions for changes. People will listen to what you say and take it as truth and then build upon it. This causes more and more people to rely upon wrong information.

    I know it has been pointed out in this thread correcting the mistake, but the increase in damage done is approximately 1 bullet difference for the AI. Those who died to a ZOE MAX as infantry would have died to a non-ZOE MAX in the same situation. Discussing the damage for AI or AA is really a non-factor and only makes much of a difference for AV. SOE could remove the damage increase and no-one but vehicle drivers would notice.
  10. Leonidas423

    It's mostly the goddamn strafing/movement speed that pisses off so much of ForumSide.
  11. Amrok1


    I know that, but for clarity's sake it is important to stop spreading false information.

    As for the strafing speed, the strafe is slower than normal infantry as it has a build up and momentum aspect preventing instant direction change. This was a change put in a few patches back in an attempt to reduce the mobility of the ZOE. Forward and backward movement is the same as normal infantry, up to the point that the all MAX travel ability kicks in but at that point the weapons go offline.

    Can you please elaborate exactly what they hate about the strafing/movement speed and why?
  12. Bape


    Dam ned you are the wisest TR player you have my thumps up bro.
  13. KnightCole

    Id love to see ZoE changed to

    MAX runs in, glows like hell, takes 50% more damage, doesnt move super fast.....gets mowed down cuz the ZOE thought he could tank a squad by himself.
  14. Schwak

    Kind of sounds like the TR max, you get to anchor and spew out DPS, but all they have to do is run behind you.
    Like I said, removing the movement bonus would put them more in line with the other MAXs but they wont do that. They will continue to nerf it and nerf it until its useless and then they will buff the NC and TR max abilities because they already know we have the short end of the stick.
  15. faykid

    much hate
    such bias
    so wrong
    wow

    i guess one can already expect people to continue believing ZOE is too OP even after then nerf

    NC and TR will not rest untill one can take out the glowing glass cannon in one clip or two AP mines... wait, you almost can take out ZOE with 2 AP mines already! nevermind...
  16. treeHamster


    Actually that momentum change was put in for all infantry to stop people from exploiting the god awful net code.


    My only issue is the fact that the ability is WAYYYY too cheap for how much benefit you get at Rank 1. Rank 1 is 150 certs and to get any more benefit from ZOE, you have to go to Rank 5. Therefore nobody (except the super high BR's) gets ZOE 5 because it's INCREDIBLY (an extra 2,200 certs) expensive just so you can kill in one less bullet (which amounts to about a 0.1 seconds difference in most cases).

    If they just remade the scale so you only had two ranks of ZOE (1 and 2), and made ZOE 1 750 certs then ZOE 2, 1500 certs, it would fix the entire problem because half the MAX population couldn't afford 750 certs for ZOE 1. The rest that could afford it, probably wouldn't cert it because they would have better places to stick 750 certs.

    Right now ZOE 1 is more economical than a really high rank of Charge. If you made ZOE more expensive, Charge would be a more economical choice and fewer people would pick it.



    Or they could just do what I suggested original and remove ZOE from the VS but remove Charge from the TR and NC so it was a VS only ability. Of course the amount of tears that would flood the forums would fill the Great Lakes.
  17. Xasapis

    Even if they do remove ZOE (or nerf it to oblivion), it has accomplished a considerable goal, which has little to do with the ability itself. It basically reintroduced the MAX to all the people who had given up on it, due to the game launch bugs and other issues. I have the feeling that a good portion of the veterans who advocate decimating nerfs to the ability, merely wish for the era where VS were pulling less MAXes compared to the other empires, by a huge margin. That era I'm afraid seems long gone now.

    In fact, I predict that any nerf to the ability will merely make the MAX stronger, since you'll see less MAXes running around with the 30% handicap on. On the other hand, I do predict a shift of population from the VS back to the NC (it's already happening) and again population dominance of the NC on most servers (they are already the most popular empire, the margin is merely getting bigger).

    From my perspective, of somebody that has long abandoned ZOE for anti infantry purposes, the loss of the ability in a permanent sense (as I've seen somewhere implied as the change) will merely mean the loss of the mini travel mode, especially in the anti-vehicle loadout.
  18. Amrok1

    Except it is more pronounced on the ZOE, a change which was intentionally put in after the ZOE was released to minimize the strafing of the ZOE. This was a direct response to some of the complaints.

    Can you post where you got this data? I'd like to review it. If this is true (and it might very well be), and the argument is that the speed buff is too much, then why not reduce the speed increase for the lower ranks? Rank 5 could stay the same, but each rank below would have a decreased speed increase, as well as a decreased damage output increase and decreased damage received.

    To clarify, you're response to my question of why is the strafe/movement speed of the ZOE so hated is because that it is the same for Rank 1 as it is for Rank 5.
  19. Emotitron

    I'm am somewhat appalled that they haven't just tweaked the damage and speed boost numbers downward a little until getting to address this fully. They should literally be two variables and a recompile away from stopping the bleeding.
  20. treeHamster


    Yes that's the problem. I've suggested either scaling the speed and armor reduction, or making the first rank cost wayyyy too much to use.

    A high rank Charge (Rank 4 or 5), is almost as fast as ZOE if used constantly. However, it's also INCREDIBLY expensive (1,150 for Rank 4 and 2,150 for Rank 5). ZOE is only 150 certs at a downside of less armor.

    While the speed/damage trade off is balanced, the price isn't. It's a poor man's Charge.

    We know that most people have ZOE 1 because high rank ZOE costs over 1k (1,250 for Rank 4 and 2,250 for Rank 5). You can't even get your first 1k of certs until well over BR 10. Considering there are better places to put certs, then a more reasonable assumption is that you won't have 1,250 certs to burn until well past BR 30.

    Beyond that, one bullet less to kill for 2,100 certs is a really stupid purchase unless you just don't have anywhere else to put certs (which is why I got Rank 5). So basically there is no real reason to get anything past Rank 1 unless you have NOWHERE else to put certs (in which case you can upgrade it for a slightly lower TTK).


    I also know that most people have ZOE 1 because if you simply ask what rank they have, around 9/10 people say Rank 1 and have no interest in dropping more certs for any ranks higher.