Vanguard shield still insanely overpowered. Make it frontal armor only with more damage absorbtion.

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by RaskolBandit, Aug 8, 2014.

  1. Flag

    Plz no.


    This again?
    The saron and halberd are sidegrades. Whatever advantage the Saron has in terms of DPS is very small, and the halberd has it's own perks (single shot, no CoF, better at AI, synergies better with peek-a-boom).

    In short, no. They're even.

    If you see a lot of sarons these days it is probably because the halberd isn't a part of the directives for the Magrider, and because it looks cool.
    • Up x 1
  2. Noppa

    Just remove every faction MBT ability, then ppl wont whine about how much better the other faction has things.. remove Shield,Magburn and Anchor... on the other hand ppl will always whine about something, even if we had 100% same MBT:s then they would whine about Faction colors!
  3. ronjahn

    The problem with this statement is you are simply wrong. If you get the jump on a Vanguard from behind your first Salvo will bring the vanguard to about half health(that is if you are running AP/ Saron. And have a gunner. You do have a gunner don't you?)

    And if you are behind the vanguard, even if the driver stops shooting, the Saron will literally drop the shield in 1 second(you are flanking aren't you?).

    If you are having trouble finishing the vanguard off at that point that it actually is a case of being outplayed. If the Vanguard that you flanked and actually landed your shots on(you are hitting your shots aren't you?) is still killing you "with ease" this is most certainly being outplayed.

    The vanguard shield is decent right now, but is easily counter able by people who approach their fights with even the slightest bit of planning and skill.

    Saron is a beast of a weapon. At range it provides accurate decent damage at a consistent rate. Up close it shreds EVERYTHING.. I've seen far less of them since the change to three shot infantry kills, but seriously the Saron is IMO the best MBT secondary by a long shot. Want to trade? My stealth AP Vanguard would love to strap on a Saron. VS can have the enforcer.
  4. WTSherman

    Actually if the AP and Saron both fire full salvos at the rear of a Vanguard they'd put it to under 1/4 health rather than half. This means the second salvo will kill it, shield or no shield. If the primary hits the tank and the secondary hits the shield, then the shield will basically drop instantly and you'll still kill it on the second salvo.

    So basically in that situation, the shield actually doesn't add enough health to change your TTK at all. It's just that before your second salvo would have been overkill (throwing 75% of his health in damage at a tank that has 25% left), with the shield it's regular kill. He's still dead.

    And of course it's even more of a joke for the Prowler.
    • Up x 1
  5. ronjahn

    Exactly my point, thanks for providing the numbers for what I can understand through experience :)

    I've never been any good with all the TTK, DPS, ect stats. Saying 1/2 damage was a way to avoid people jumping down my throat if in fact it only did like 48% or something :rolleyes:
  6. Aegie

    Lol, if by blatantly OP you mean the worst performing tank for the entire life of the game then yeah but just writing that makes me feel like I am taking crazy pills.

    Saying Magrider has a downside because it can only boost forward is the same as saying the shield has a downside of glowing bright blue or that it can only last 6 seconds, or that it can be destroyed by damager, or that it has a long cool down.

    Bottom line- whatever you say the Vanguard is and has always been hands down the worst performing MBT in the game.

    I'll make a trade, first we buff the Vanguard so it is the highest performing tank in the game then we nerf the shield to oblivion then we buff the Vanguard again so it is the highest performing tank.

    Since you apparently care more about your perceptions of an ability than the actual in-game performance of the vehicle I struggle to see why you would have problem with this proposal as it perfectly addresses your issue.
    • Up x 4
  7. Fleech

    it should, but it doesn't. you seem to think numbers are all that matter in these scenarios. i rarely lose 1v1 to prowlers in my mag. the only prowler crews i pay any attention to and actively look out for are S1D1 and frozen. other than that i mow prowlers down like grass. they have neither the mobility of the magrider nor the durability of the vanguard. how many hours in a magrider do you have.
  8. Fleech


    lol. i've only ever seen 3 mag drivers without magburn on at least one level. it makes the tank on higher levels of play.
  9. Flag

    Shield has no downside, magburner has no downside.
    They have restrictions however.

    Shield is restricted in duration (HP) and CD.
    Magburner is restricted in duration, direction and recharge.

    Anchor has a downside, rooting you in place.
    • Up x 1
  10. Foxirus

    Not one of you who has used that argument has posted evidence or numbers that are up to date proving that the Vanguard is the worst performing tank. Every person I tell to show me updated numbers dodges the subject. Im starting to think that "Worst performing tank" is just some bull crap stat you guys just pulled out of the infantry area of it and ignored the tank versus tank stats. The magriders infantry power (The only thing you and everyone else calls it good at) was nerfed while your Vanguard was buffed in that area.


    So I'll say again, Show me an updated stat that your tank is the worst performing tank versus other tanks to prove that you are not just milking a long dead cow and pulling these numbers out of your ***. If you can't do that, Don't complain when the nerf bat comes to finish off your tank.
  11. Foxirus

    I am talking a one pilot tank for both sides, This is the majority of fights that happen for me. The Saron is also a FOUR shot infantry kill, So its completely useless at killing infantry. Kinda funny though, I think I can remember plenty of times being shot by the Enforcing and dying in one shot. Not two or Three, But ONE.


    The shield isn't decent. Its an invincibility shield. The Vanguard has the most armor, Highest velocity shots, easiest time shooting down air because of its vertical aim and higher shell velocity, and is FASTER than a magrider. Ill tell you as I told every other NC trying to defend that godshield. Show me UPDATED PROOF, That your tank is still the worst tank in the game when it comes to Versing other tanks, Not infantry, TANKS. Every person I have said that to has ignored it completely. You guys are milking that dead cow of an argument.
  12. Grayson

    Than nerf the scythe, and buff the reaver

    /thread.
  13. MetalCotton

    What the hell are you doing getting close to a Vanguard?
  14. EGuardian1

    Invincibility shield? LOL.

    [IMG]

    HAHAHAHAHAHA!

    Okay, if you don't have a gunner, you're literally HALF a tank, so you deserve to get wrecked if you attack a 2/2 tank without some real smart positioning.
  15. Xasapis

    The Magrider will need two extra double shots to kill you. If he's not smart and popping in and out of cover, you can start firing while rotating your chassis. Believe me, you have the dps to finish him off.
  16. Aegie

    Okay, so first off the person who wants to lobby for a change in the game is the one who has the onus to prove why the change is necessary. So far you provide nothing beyond your personal opinion.

    Secondly, generally, when people present widely accepted information that has been previously and regularly confirmed the onus is usually on others to try to disconfirm that, not the other way around. A bit of an extreme example, but this is akin to someone saying "the Earth is round" and you jumping down their throat to prove it to you.

    Third, just so you cannot keep going with the BS about people not spoon feeding you information you could easily find yourself, here are some links that took me less than 5 minutes to track down:

    https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2...ls-than-the-marauder-and-c85-combined.191959/

    What's really great is that you can go to the place below to see the last 30 days if you want to keep up to date.

    http://ps2oraclestats.com/monthlystats/

    Another thread, has a link to the "Comprehensive MBT vs. MBT stats" thread but that one is giving me an error:

    https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/vote-against-vanguard-nerf.181689/

    and...

    https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/top-5-vanguard-myths-with-numbers.183022/

    and...

    https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2...rforming-tanks-only-crutch-was-nerfed.182974/

    Now, I'm willing to bet that all you will do with this information is dismiss it because it does not conform to your personal feelings- and that is why a lot of people do not want to bother posting information for others because very often, especially with people who conduct themselves as you have, it does nothing unless it confirms the person's already existing beliefs.

    Not only this but people tend to be more receptive to information that they invest in finding themselves- of course, very often, if you are looking for information for yourself then you may have already overcome the bias that you think you already know the answer- so you are probably more open minded in the first place.

    So, now that we're through with that nonsense how about you provide some proof for your feelings?

    Also, this is not only a poisonous mentality in general but makes it seem pretty clear that you have little interest in a reasonable discussion and just want some kind of revenge.

    So, I say again, for you who want to make changes to the state of the game- where is your proof that these changes are necessary?

    Honestly, how do you think it is reasonable to come here and violate the forum guidelines by asking for direct nerfs without supplying any solid evidence or even constructive arguments? Not only this but then then you get high and mighty because others will not go out of their way and do more than you have yourself to support the current state of affairs with a widely accepted, frequently reconfirmed issue?

    Go look back at my posts in this thread- I feel I am being very reasonable; 1) shield was recently nerfed despite the relatively poor performance of the Vanguard, 2) I understand why people are upset with the shield and I agree that the Vanguard should be less reliant on the shield, 3) all I am saying is that in order for balance to be reasonable we must buff the Vanguard thoroughly enough that it is in an overall better position after we bring whatever nerfs to the shield that people want.

    You do not like the shield- I get it. I do not like the shield either- want to know why? Because perceptions of people like yourself keep the Vanguard in the worst position even with the shield as it is. I agree that we need to make the Vanguard less reliant on the shield but simply nerfing the shield will cripple the already worst performing tank in the game. Solution: buff the crap out of the other aspects of the Vanguard so that after changes are made to the shield it is is an overall relatively better place, performance-wise, than it has ever been. Why? Because in terms of relative performance it has always been the worst. So, change that, and make it overall a better tank so that we can adjust the shield and still have something that is, performance-wise, more on par with the other factions.

    What is interesting here is that if you are against that kind of a solution then you have no interest in balance because all I am saying is "fine, nerf the shield all you want, just make sure that the Vanguard is on par with the other MBTs performance-wise". Thing is, this would require changes that would, overall, leave the Vanguard in a much better place than it is right now with the shield as it is.

    Only way to be against that is if you not only dislike the shield but basically just want the Vanguard to be garbage.

    It is already the least interesting MBT in the game- no double barrel, no omnidirection, just a regular tank and as far as the special ability goes it is also boring because 1) there are lots of other shields that are similar that every faction has access to (we even have a vehicle now that has, arguably, a better shield than the Vanguard that is available to every faction), and 2) the "special" ability is simply a short term long cooldown increase in HP and simply taking more damage is a boring mechanic.

    Finally, I just want to say that I realize I have been a bit abrasive in this post and for that I am a bit sorry but seriously when you post this kind of thing you should expect people to respond as such.
    • Up x 8
  17. WTSherman

    The shield absorbs a whole one shell, two if it's front armor. Additionally, the 6 seconds it stays up is only enough time for the Vanguard to fire once. Hardly "invincible", it's only "invincible" if you don't shoot it.

    The Enforcer is also not a one-hit kill. It takes two direct hits or three splash. The Saron takes three direct hits (you still take splash on a direct hit against infantry, so the Saron does 485 damage on direct hit), but can fire faster and get those hits more reliably.

    More importantly though, the Saron's DPS against tanks leaves the Enforcer in the dust. The Enforcer does 750 damage per second before armor (it has a 1.5x multiplier against vehicles, it only does 500 to infantry), and then has a 3.25 second reload. However, it fires so slowly that usually the enemy tank will die before you reload so I'll not count it and keep its DPS at 750. If you do end up reloading (for example, if the enemy uses Fire Suppression or you miss one shot), that drops its sustained DPS down to 533.

    The Saron empties its entire magazine in one second, inflicting 2556 damage before armor (it also has a 1.5x multiplier) and then has a 3 second reload. So, 2556 damage over one second is obviously a burst of *drumroll* 2556. Assuming adding the reload to that gives it a 4 second cycle, that drops its sustained DPS down to "only" 639. Which, by the way, is higher than the Titan AP. So the Saron has both higher burst and higher sustain.

    Maxing reload speed on both changes the sustain to 558 for the Enforcer and 730 for the Saron, which makes the Saron almost comparable to an AP Prowler. For comparison a Halberd has 500 DPS stock and 600 with max reload. So a stock enforcer is stronger than a stock Halberd, but a certed Halberd is stronger than a certed Enforcer unless the latter can avoid reloading. Saron beats the Halberd both stock and certed.

    That said, the NC really needs to pull more repair sundies and NC tankers need to learn to work alongside them. Because that is probably the one situation where the shield is actually non-trivial. It synergizes very strongly with the repair sundy. I don't know why I never see any NC taking advantage of it.
    • Up x 1
  18. Mooveoverbrt

    After many many many hours in my magrider.. I have no problems going against vannys or prowlers. I cant speak for the other factions MBT's cause I don't have much time in them. If you are having problems in your magrider you are probably doing it wrong. As for the halberd/saron debate.. even before the change I always had great success with the halberd. I like it because its consistent great for dumping out some dmg (max reload of course), destroying infantry, armor and aircraft.
  19. Flag

    That's because it was in the old Vehicle Sub Forum, which has been removed. You'll find it -somewhere- here in General Discussion, but good luck with that.

    That is true for all secondaries, and it's deliberate to encourage people to use gunners rather than more 1/2 tanks.
    Doesn't work for the prowler as it does a lot more damage with the main gun than the Van and Mag, which is a problem.
    ... and also why this thread exists, I'm sure.
  20. ohknoh

    @Aegie
    The Vanguard shield is literally the difference between destruction and survival. The vanguard is the heavy assault of the tank world. What more could you ask for?

    Attacking enemy tanks from the flanks or rear isn't some sort of unique trait for the Magrider. Any tank can do it, all it takes is some skill. The magrider can traverse some terrain that other tanks find difficult, that's about it. In my opinion, the vanguard is better at flanking than the magrider. It's main gun has better characteristics, which lets it flank from farther away. A hulldown vanguard, sniping from long range is almost impossible to counter, especially when it can use a shield to destroy any advantage you might be able to gain.


    I just love how people always assume that it's okay to have so many prerequisites for a magrider attempting to kill a vanguard. You must get the first shot. The first shot must be against the rear armor. You must stay in the rear/side of the vanguard. Otherwise you're just a bad driver, and deserve to be destroyed anyway.


    The vanguard's shield isn't some sort of crutch. It's an effective ability that's useful in a number of situations, and allows the vanguard to tank damage that would kill another tank. What this means is that the vanguard can take risks, it can push objectives, and force the enemy to retreat simply.

    The vanguard is more forgiving than the other mbts, therefor people tend to make more mistakes while piloting it. Playing too aggressively. You learn quickly not to press your luck in a magrider, in a Vanguard pressing your luck can often times reap rewards, and if not...well shield and reverse until you're out of trouble.