Vanguard shield still insanely overpowered. Make it frontal armor only with more damage absorbtion.

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by RaskolBandit, Aug 8, 2014.

  1. Colt556

    I've actually had similar ideas that you listed at the end, only mine were a bit more extreme in their faction flavors. However I want to remind you of something in regards to your "theory tank" notion. Prowlers are the most spawned tank of the three, I believe they're the ones who get the most tank kills as well and they're a close tie with magriders for infantry farm. Prowlers aren't exceptionally good on paper, but in practice as well. Which is fine, I aint saying they need a nerf. I'm in the group that things underperforming things should be buffed, rather than nerfing overachievers. But let's not lie to ourselves here, out of all three tanks the prowler is simply the best because why the vanguard may beat it in a melee brawl, while the magrider may be better at farming infantry, the prowler really has no downsides and can perform all roles at all ranges effectively. So overall the prowler is the best, that's just facts that we need to acknowledge.
  2. Alarox

    Going to be brutally honest. This thread is 90% "my tank sucks, yours is better". I'm referring to VS, TR, and yes even NC players.

    All of the tanks can be competitive at the highest level. MBTs are the most asymmetrically balanced aspect of this game. Each tank has strengths and weaknesses not seen on the other two tanks. Each tank has completely different ways of dealing with similar situations. Each tank has a unique style and skill-set required.

    In other words, go buff yourselves.
    • Up x 4
  3. Foxirus

    Show me the evidence showing that the vanguard is doing the worst of the tanks.

    This is not a case of someone getting "Outplayed". Its a case that you can get the sneak on a vanguard from behind and it still kill you with ease because of the invincibility shield.

    So to counter your argument that the Vanguard is the worst tank.. Strip away all tank utilities. Your Vanguard has the most armor, Highest bullet velocity, and is even faster than the magrider. Until you can prove with UP TO DATE information that shows that the Vanguard is performing the worse, You are pulling numbers out of your ***.

    One more thing, Don't bother trying to link something that is more than a year old, I want current numbers.
  4. Nexus545

    Mobility will always beat brute force is every environment bar open fields or narrow passages. They Magrider should be redesigned to actually be a tank to be honest. So many balance issues occur because people want something unique.
  5. eldarfalcongravtank

    vanguards are fine. i have killed so many vanguards (after they have run out of shield juice) with my AP magrider yesterday night its not even funny anymore. vanguards back up like a snail, turn like an old woman and are easily flanked with a fast vehicle (like my max-racer max-magburner magrider)

    leave it alone and learn how to tank yourself.
    • Up x 3
  6. MasterDemoman

    this thread is op, pls nerf
  7. PasitheeVS

    We are only talking about 1 vs. 1.

    But what about massive battless? Exactly what PLS2 is about?

    When we have a situation like 10 vs. 10 VG and Mags, the agility of the Magrider is useless.
    1 Magrider can dodge gunshots, hide. outmaneuver and surprise the enemy, but 10 can't.

    As Vanguard you will always find a Mag to shoot at, as Mag you will always find a VG to shoot at.
    However the Vanguards can survive more shots and simply win in this situation.

    Also in this Situation, Prowlers will win against Mags due to higher damage output - even more so when using the anchor.
  8. AshHill07

    Prowler vs Vanguard is currently quite well balanced, if the mag is under performing (still not convinced it is) it needs to be brought up not the Vanguard brought down.

    And will people STOP calling it an INVULNERABILITY shield, that's NOT what it does!
  9. Colt556

    Well I can't find any super up to date stats so I'll stop saying it, as maybe something's changed in the past few months. However I will turn this around on you. You claim the shield is overpowered (otherwise there's no reason to change it) and that it gives the vanguard an advantage. Provide evidence that there actually is something wrong with the vanguard shield and that it should be changed. Because you disliking it isn't good enough, I dislike watching magriders just zip away, does that mean we should change magburner to make it weaker? Unless you have actual evidence that the vanguard shield is too strong, you should abandon your quest to see it nerfed.
  10. Shatters

    1 AP round to the back nearly removes the shield by itself, 2 remove it and damage the vanguard quite a good bit. If you manage to sneak up to the back of a vanguard, hit him twice and still lose, then you are doing something wrong. The vanguard wont be able to turn fast enough to show anything else then its rear if you suprise him from the back anyway.
    +you can just shoot twice (you+gunner), vanguard will be close to burning already at this point. He will probably activate shield, and you hide back behind the rock/hill/whatever you came from. I see plenty of magriders/prowlers on cobalt being able to do this, and I think you could manage it as well.

    That being said, if you are really hammering on a vanguard AV nerf, then the other 2 MBTs should get a large nerf for their AI as it is superior to that of the vanguard in almost every way.

    Also, we have seen 0 stats to support that the vanguard is performing too well in AV combat (hell, the stats we have seen suggests otherwise). Last, this game is not balanced around 1vs1. Or 2vs2 for that matter.

    Could work if it got a buff in another area.
    Would make it useless unless the vanguard would stop turning like a brick on wheels.
    Would make it toally useless. Have you ever tried driving a vanguard yourself? And again, this game is not balanced around 1vs1 MBT combat, it is balanced around combined arms vs combined arms.

    Totally agreed. Currently every MBT is competative, performs on the same level yet in another way and none of the 3 tanks is outperforming the other 2 according to the stats, and it feels that way in-game as well. I have seen magriders own vanguards, i have seen prowlers owning magriders and i have seen vanguards owning prowlers. It all depends on the terrain, the players and (most importantly) the infantry/air/sunderer support.
  11. Sevk

    The Vanguard shield discussion usually pops up a lot. But quite frankly, it shows that there are a lot of bad drivers around. It's the same harassement the NC get about their Scatmaxes.

    You, as a TR or VS expect to roll into a full health Vanguard, up close, and take it down. Because you "flanked". Reality is, if you get the alpha strike on a Vanguard, the shield will usually only delay its death. And even then, your tactic should be to use the poor manoeuvrability of the Vanguard to your advantage. Engage them, force them to pop the shield, finish them off. Sometimes easier said than done, but it's very much doable. And with the ability to strafe for the VS, a fight can quickly become frustrating for the Vanguard.

    The Vanguard is probably the strongest AV tank in game, because it can deal serious damage in close quarters when using the shield. But at range the effect quickly drops, hitting becomes harder, especially against Magriders. If you want to 1 v 1 a Vanguard, make sure you've got a full AV loadout yourself. Play smart, instead of yelling nerf every second. You don't hear TR and NC yell nerf Magrider because it doesn't touch the ground, making it the only ground vehicle under which shots can pass. (Really noticable at range.)
  12. Demigan

    Just the amount of inaccuracies in here...

    ADAD mags? learn to aim perhaps?
    Outdamaged by Vannies? Here's a damage comparison:

    See how the average damage per second is almost twice as high as the Vanguard? So it's simple: Prowler has between 181 and 194% of the damage of the Vanguard, while the Vanguard has as a highest 7% more damage reduction than the Prowler (side armor), which translates to 112% of the armor of a Prowler. So I call complete and utter ********. I've also shown you the TTK times in a previous post, a Vanguard needs a shield to win from a VANILLA PROWLER, and he wins barely at that. This is a HEAT comparison, but with AP weapons the difference becomes even bigger and the Prowler wins even against a shielded Vanguard.

    You realise you have a faster tank with high turn ratio's? I understand that they can do a circle movement around you, but even in the slower Vanguard I can keep my front facing them if they do that while almost standing against me. A Prowler with it's high DPS should completely annihilate a Magrider. So I'm sorry to say this, but you should step up your game.

    You obviously never drove a Vanguard. It's not as if cover is everywhere, and even if there is, with enough Prowlers VS Vanguards you can always cash out enough damage to annihilate someone. There are numerous battles where I had to bail at 50% health with shield on because I knew that I would die otherwise. Result? 1 shot, run away with shield on, 40 second cooldown (I don't have max shield yet but let's assume I have allright?)

    'Massive damage'. Please look at my damage calculation above. In fact, try it out yourself! Download this excell sheet and fill in your own data, you can find anything from TTK and DPS on various sides and hit percentages in there:
    The TTK for shield is broken atm, still need to fix that. So just add 6 seconds to the TTK, unless the DPS*6=2000+, than you add half the TTK.

    in my outfit we roll with Enforcer and Halbert, Halbert is preferred because the isntantaneous damage is a wonderful help, much better in doing that last shot on enemies. The Halbert also does OHK on infantry, which the Enforcer can't. So many Vanguards run with Halberts since better AI abilities save your life in C4 fairy situations.

    How do they nullify? The data already shows that the Vanguard needs the shield to compete with a VANILLA vanguard. When you take reload speed, AP weapons and anchor mode into the equation the Prowler actually benefits more. The Prowler gets more DPS with it's certed reload speed, as well as with it's AP weapons compared to the Vanguard. The only thing the Vanguard has an advantage in when certing is front/side/top armor, where he gets a (marginally) better increase of damage reduction. 10% damage reduction for side armor actually increases the side armors already existing damage reduction, it doesn't give a flat out 10% damage reduction.

    No. I am talking about Prowlers being OP and mags needing a buff. I am not talking CRAP about it. I give you the numbers that show it, and in practice this is backed up.

    Yeah we would be done with it. It would be the final straw, no one would take a Vanguard anymore for long.

    You have the same armor and health as Magriders. So where's the 'glass cannon' part? Besides, if you become long-range AOE artillery but keep performing as you are now, how the hell is anyone going to win from you? CQC: a few artillery shells up yours. Long range: AOE artillery!

    Not too bad idea's. Perhaps need a few details and tweaks here and there, I like the blitzkrieg Prowler laid before me. I wouldn't mind putting you up for creating the abilities (although I would let the numbers be crunched by someone else, sorry).
    • Up x 1
  13. Taemien

    Whatever Outfit this guy is in needs to teach him how to L2P. Seriously, I am not even going to address these sort of people directly but instead blame their outfits instead. If its a lonewolf, then there is nothing else to see here.
  14. SuperiorInferiority

    If you're driving toward a Vanguard ( Heavy armor ) in a Lightning ( Light armor ) Surely you shouldn't get your hopes too high for a heroic victory? o_O

    See that bully over there? He's bigger than me - but if i hit him twice it will break his defense!! :D
  15. lothbrook

    The shield is a little too weak IMO, and Magriders are by far the most difficult MBT to deal with, unless they're withing 100m of you, the good magrider crews are nearly impossible to kill.
  16. Kalivix

    How about this! you can have the shield on your mag and we'll take the ability to strafe and instantly accelerate to 90 k/ph to get out of trouble and reach areas that no other tank can reach.

    I always find it funny when I see people whining about the vanguard, the shield explodes in 1-2 shots so its only useful in 1v1 fights which is NOT how you should be using a tank anyway.

    the main problem I always notice with tanks is they are big and slow so you'll get hit by almost everything, the unpredictable nature of the mag means it can avoid most shots though and the sudden boost means you'll rarely get a chance to finish them as they'll zoom off before you get a chance. A vanguard might SEEM powerful with this shield, but that shield wont keep you alive it'll delay your death, the afterburn will keep you alive and do lots of other fun things.
    • Up x 1
  17. Kafein

    It's lovely that every argument about the Van shield involves someone going "but if the mag/prowler gets behind, you will die regardless of shield". How is that even an argument? If a Vanguard sneaks up behind a Prowler or a Magrider, the Vanguard will make even shorter work of them. The point is that putting aside fantasy scenarios, the Vanguard is the strongest tank due to that shield. It should bother its advocates that while Vanguard players almost unanimously use the shield, few Magriders use boost, and even fewer Prowlers run around with Deathtrap, erm, Lockdown, except farmers. Similarly, the Enforcer is much more popular than Vulcan or Saron. AT Mags usually get Halberd, and AT Prowlers almost unanimously shun the Vulcan.

    I agree that due to lockdown and PPA, TR and VS tanks have an advantage at farming infantry. But that is pretty much irrelevant in this discussion. Vanguards also are by far the best at dealing with aircraft due to the shield and the combination of high damage, very high projectile speed and the best AT secondary for dealing with air. The shield in particular defeats the purpose of the Liberator as a tank counter. Unless expertly delivered from no further than 50 meters away, a tank buster mag is not a serious problem for a Vanguard, while it usually dooms the other two. Just pop the shield while the lib pitches up for the gunner to finish the job, gunner gets to lose 5 seconds because of that shield, which is plenty enough time to get wrecked by flak, locks, ESF and other tanks.
  18. miraculousmouse

    How would the vanguard have any chance of surviving such an ambush attack especially against the magrider? He drops in behind me, takes almost half of my hp out with one volley, and stays in my back the entire time. My shield didnt do jack ****. If i had my shield on the 45 second recharge i wouod die even faster.
  19. Kalivix

    I'm sorry that you play on a server of complete rookies, I really am, but thats no excuse for saying the mag isn't the best tank in this game or any game.

    The shield only last about 1-2 shots and a mag will be side stepping more shots than that anyway apart from in mega close quarters fights, and if you're using a mag like that its your own fault you die a lot, you should be doing what all the good mag pilots do fighting from long range so its easy to see shots coming and strafe out of the way, or doing drive bys to quickly do damage then burner away.

    As for nobody uses the burner.. EVERYBODY uses it cos its so amazing, it lets you bypass walls, it lets you get to vantage points no other tank can reach, and when you're in trouble you can instantly hit 90k/ph and get out of trouble, the second somebody uses the burner they are basically safe as unless you were already locking on with a lockon launcher your not going to hit them.

    The shield will let you live a few seconds longer which MAY let you escape, the burner WILL let you escape. Its just flat out better as is the mag overall. Seriously if you want to switch tanks we'll switch tanks, I'd be more than happy to have the mag instead of the vanguard.
  20. miraculousmouse

    Okay so propose how you are supposed to take out the biggest, toughest guy in school besides hitting him in the back of the legs with a bat or kicking his nuts. Thats what the vanguard is, and lets fac it, the magrider is the best tank at ambushing.

    You are also extremely jaded if you think that the shield does jack **** against libs. Most tank hunting libs are quite aware of the shield, and will revolve their attack around it. Honestly, a lib catching a vanguard when he isnt in cover is pretty much a free kill. The vanguard might offer 6 extra seconds of resistance where he is helpless against an enemy that can duck right into his blind spot or his rear.