Vanguard shield still insanely overpowered. Make it frontal armor only with more damage absorbtion.

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by RaskolBandit, Aug 8, 2014.

  1. JesNC

    TIL: Lowest scoring MBT in the game is OP.
    • Up x 4
  2. Fleech


    strafing unpredictably causes even high BR tankers to miss. i even throw in a few fake out moves in combination with magburn. it works litterally every time. bait a van into taking a shot, fire while boosting diagonally.



    the mag v. van engagement is entirely dependent on the terrain. the only place i find myself truly threatened by vanguards is totally flat terrain at less than 100 meters. anything other than flat terrain and the mag has a massive advantage. on amerish it almost doesn't even feel fair fighting vanguads that can do so little about the angles i'm getting on them.
    • Up x 1
  3. Xasapis

    Not sure why you bother mentioning this as some kind of argument. If anything, the only tank that would have a remote chance of surviving an ambush attack would be the Vanguard.
  4. Demigan

    In that case the same counts for every tank-user.
    'If you lose at long range, you should have strafed'. After all, with the higher acceleration and speed on the Vanguard and prowler, you can dodge the slower slugs of Magriders much easier. So every single tanker destroyed at range is basically screwing up? You know that's not true. You know there's limits to dodging capabilities of every faction.

    It's not 'screwing up' on the Tankers part. It's weighing your own effectiveness over added dodging capabilities. The reason people have a standard way to strafe is because they then don't have to think about strafing, and can put their minds to aiming and lobbing slow-moving blobs of plasma across vast distances. If they started thinking too much about strafing they would never ever land a shot!
    As a comparison, here's walking: No one is thinking about how they walk, that's why it's so easy. They have a standard way they walk, and if you start thinking about it this completely mundane thing suddenly causes you to stop walking properly AND you can't even keep up normal conversation because you are thinking about how to walk.

    I don't know what kind of low-skilled people you fight. I'm not saying it's easy to hit Magriders at range, it's just not impossible. I win most long-range fights against magriders, I find Prowlers much more difficult due to anchor modes higher muzzle velocity/lower bullet drop and the high damage output with the option to blanket an area rather than aiming. Most of my outfit buddies also prefer to engage a few Magriders than Prowlers, simply because Magriders are easier prey.
    In fact, I have been of the opinion that Magriders are one of the weakest and saddest tanks out there since they nerfed the Saron HRB. They have lower armor than the Vanguard (and about the same DPS), and they have lower DPS than the Prowler (and the same armor).
    • Up x 1
  5. Lamat

    Magrider strafing avoids more shots than the now lame shield absorbs.
    • Up x 2
  6. Fleech


    what if i have both hitting targets accurately, and strafing properly, ingrained in my muscle memory? i can assign my brain to go on "auto pilot" for either shooting or strafing, which ever needs more mental exertion at that time. different people have varying degrees of multitasking. how many hours in a mag do you have?
  7. WTSherman

    Honestly, the people who say the Mag lacks AT power are kind of forgetting about the Saron. I'm sorry but that thing is a beast. The lack of drop makes it extremely reliable at long range. Sure you're firing slower at long range, but more of those shots are hitting and hitting slower is way better than not hitting at all.

    And then at short range its rate of fire turns it into a monster. It can mag-dump for 2556 damage (it has a 1.5x multiplier against MBTs, same damage type as the Halberd) in just barely over one second, and then its reload is incredibly short. It's easily the highest DPS secondary in the game. It also out-DPSes most of the primaries, only the Prowler AP does more.

    An Enforcer can only fire two shots (fire, one second delay, fire) in the time it takes the Saron to empty its magazine.

    As for the Halberd, well if you're running a Halberd on a Magrider you are wrong. The Saron completely out-damages it, and is also more useful against aircraft.
    • Up x 3
  8. kadney

    I'm still for a damage mitigating vanguard shield, similar to the resist shield. This way, you couldn't simply put it in when you are low on health because you could still "easily" get killed. Right now it's like, depending on the situation, shoot each other and pop the shield once you are on low health to get an extra X HP. Then it would be either you pop the shield in time to reduce incoming damage or you will loose anyways, depending on the incoming firepower.
  9. Foxirus

    I was saying it lasted under six seconds because the damn thing exploded. Under any other circumstance I never see a vannies shield drop before its timer.

    As for the resist shield being more OP? It would still be 6 seconds. So all it would be doing is pretty much only reducing the damage by half, not complete immunity. The Resist shield would not deplete with damage, So you would ALWAYS get the full duration. You are trying to tell me removing 6 seconds of complete immunity for 6 seconds of 45% resistance is OP? Not really, it would be balanced with the other tank utilities.
  10. MisterBond

    I'm done trying to talk to VS about anything, you guys still have the absolute best toys on average, stop crying about it before I turn this game around and take away your default auraxium black cameo!
    • Up x 2
  11. Lamat

    If you change it to a resist shield it would need to last longer and recharge
    quicker
    • Up x 4
  12. Aegie

    That would be a hefty nerf IMO.

    When you use the shield as a MAX people just wait for you to lower it or take the opportunity to get into a better position or get away. If the Vanguard shield made you incapable of being a threat then enemies would simply wait, or rather would take that free time to reload or repair.

    The Vanguard is not a monster. They just released shields for Sunderers that, in a great many ways, better.

    I wouldn't mind seeing something similar to omnidirection on all harrassers or lockdown for all lightnings but I digress.

    IMO, any further changes/nerfing of the Vanguard shield has to wait until we can get the Vanguard into a solid enough position that it can take that nerf and still be performing a fair bit better than it was prior to the last nerf.

    I get it, people do not like the mechanic, but face it even with this the Vanguard is the MBT that needs the most love and always has been. Fiddle with the shield some more, that is fine, but not until after it is sitting pretty enough to take the fiddling.
    • Up x 2
  13. Aegie

    !!! In the current state of the tank you want to cut in half the only thing keeping it afloat?!?!

    Incredible. How about they look into something like this once the current state of affairs shows the Vanguard leading the pack?
    • Up x 1
  14. PasitheeVS

    Well to be honest:

    I don't know if it's only my skill, but the Magrider is really really OP against Infantry, if you have certed it right.
    (Supernova PC, Saron, Racer 3, Magburner 4, Radar 4...)
    Because it's floating, fast and so agile, Infantry can maybe hide, but not run away...

    The unique front gun has it's advantages and disadvantages. It's nice on AI, but bad at AT
    and makes aiming hard for gunners. Also defending C4ing Infantry is harder with it.

    However on AT it's awful...

    Some time ago I had a Situation where I surprised a damaged Vanguard from behind in a 2/2 vs. 2/2
    and the Vanguard survived burning while my Magrider was destroyed. At least someone else destroyed the VG.

    The Saron is awful at long range. The Bullets are slow, you have to wait 0,5sec to not decrease accuracy.
    Or you fire as fast as you can and only 1 or 2 Bullets hit.
    The front gun is slow and a problem in long-range fights.



    A solution could be making the VG-Shield absorbing a %-share of the damage and giving it a disatvantage like
    reduced damage output, slower firerate, disable front and/or rear gun (pretty much like the Max.Shield...) ,
    make it move much slower.

    ATM the VG-shield has no disadvantage, only advantages - direct advantages in every situation!
    The Prowler-Ability only helps at long range and turns you into a standing target
    and with the Magburner you can either run away like a chicken or do crazy stuff with it.

    The VG does not need skill to be strong, the Magrider does.
    Even my grandparents would be pro gamers in a well-certed Vanguard.
  15. Goretzu

    That would mean that they'd have to actually buff the stock chassis though........... I can hear the forum melting already.
  16. Foxirus

    The thing keeping it afloat makes it blatantly OP. There are ZERO drawbacks to using the shield. The magrider and prowler have drawbacks. Prowler can't move when deployed, And the magrider can only boost in a forward direction, Which means if used as an escape, you MUST expose your weakest point to the enemy.


    Im calling it. I want to see this proof that shows the vanguard being the horrible tank you NC claim it is. Im not talking Vanny versus infantry either, Im talking it versus tanks. In game, Vanguards are the most dangerous thing on the field.
  17. Demigan

    Short version:
    Magrider is good in AI, bad in AT
    Prowler is good in AI, good in AT
    Vanguard is bad in AT, good in AT

    You want the Magrider to become equal to the Vanguard in AT. So the Vanguard doesn't have a single advantage? The Magrider would be better at AI than the Vanguard while being equal in AT. The Prowler is already shown to be better at AT, and has better AI abilities as well.
    And all that, just because we have a shield that adds 2000 health for 6 seconds? We NEED that shield, it's the only thing keeping us in the game!


    long version:
    In what way is this a 'solution'.

    You already said it yourself: Magrider is incredible against infantry.
    Is the Vanguard good against infantry? No, it's bad, the worst of the three. You have a reload of 4 seconds, 3,5 with maximum certed. In that time infantry can fire another rocket. With multiple infantry you are simply screwed, it takes a minimum of 12 seconds to kill 3 people, assuming you actually hit them right. Magriders and Prowlers have faster reload and more power vs infantry.
    Vanguard vs Prowler already shows that the Vanguard barely wins against a VANILLA PROWLER even with shield equipped.
    So the problem isn't the Vanguard or it's shield, so there isn't a 'solution' for it. The only 'solution' would be to increase the power of the shield rather than nerf it. Prowler is better than the Vanguard both in AT as in AI. Magrider is better at AI, but loses against the Vanguard.

    I don't get it, why do you people want the shield nerfed? I've shown that the shield isn't exactly a supa-dupa OP weapon. It barely evens the odds between the Prowler vs Vanguard. Against the Magrider some people say that the strafing is even better than a shield. So why nerf the shield? So a Magrider stands a better chance? If you nerf the shield, the Vanguard loses even MORE from the Prowler, while the Magrider becomes more powerful and still retains it's better AI abilities.
    So if anything, you should be buffing the Magrider's AT abilities if you want this to be a more 'fair' fight against the Vanguard. Otherwise the Vanguard is hit in both Prowler battles as well as Magrider battles. You only wanted the Magrider improved, right? But improve the Magrider against the Vanguard, and the Vanguard becomes even more useless. If it becomes equal to the Magrider in AT abilities, the vanguard doesn't have a single advantage! Oh wait, we have a shield... but did you notice? You guys are actually saying that the Magrider needs to be equal to a Vanguard WITH shield. While most of the time, we are without it (you know... long cooldown, lots of battles). This is supposed to be fair?


    Read all my posts, it says it all.
  18. Colt556

    The difference is the prowler and magrider outperform the vanguard even when you factor in the vanguard shield. So let's use numbers to make it simple.

    Prowler = 10
    Magrider = 10
    Vanguard = 8
    VG Shield = 2

    Without the shield the vanguard is inferior to the other two tanks, when you factor in the shield it's fairly equal to them. These are just facts, they can't be disputed, they're as true as the sky being blue. As I keep saying, the numbers don't lie. Magriders and Prowlers get more infantry and vehicle/tank kills than the vanguard. More prowlers and magriders are spawned than vanguards are. Base stats on the tanks themselves show them to be superior (such as the prowler having better DPS).

    This entire thread really is a case of someone getting outplayed and just blaming the first thing that came to mind. As others have said, before you nerf the shield buff the tank, otherwise we're gonna have a situation where the NC has no armor.
  19. Astriania

    No.

    Since it was nerfed (when Vanguard was already the worst tank) it makes only a marginal difference. The shield is less powerful than Maggies' ability to get on top of hills and behind bases, or Prowlers' to lock down and farm.

    A Vanguard might win a straight 1v1. It damn well should, because it will lose any other kind of engagement.
    • Up x 2
  20. Kunavi

    Mag needing buffs... Mmm... Legit. Not.

    The TheoryTank(Prowler) might sound like a good idea but it gets ADADAD'd by Mags and simpy outHP'd and outDmg'd by Vannies.

    I have lost numerous battles against a Mag at a distance where you'd think Anchor would rule. I've lost numerous battles against them up close as well, because they can outmaneuver me very easily. In none of those cases did lower velocity of the Mag hinder the driver. LIKE A BOSS, if anyone's overreacting that's you. And YES projectile drop is a non issue if you're good. Not saying it's a straight up massive advantage, but it's also NOT a problem.

    Against Vannies things are different, at a distance they are not much of a threat, they can't risk staying in the open for many shots because they can't ADAD but they also can't really ever blow up because smart Vannie drivers reserve their shields to retreat and repair, knowing I am too far away to hunt them down and going off Anchor alone is a chore, plus going back into Anchor if the Vannie pops out again behind that rock. So they keep their Shield for that moment and NEVER lose, forcing other MBTs to go hunt them up close... Problem is, up close the Vannie can and will tear a Prowler apart unless they get distracted or aren't good enough to know how to respond to such a situation. I can't speak for CQC Vannie VS Mag yet, not on both sides, so I'll refrain from that for now; The added mobility and the Burner used right could turn the tide but still... Shield. And massive Dmg.

    As for 2/2, Prowlers roll Halberd while the other 2 roll ES turrets. Even for CQC as a Prowler I NEVER equip the Marauder(Obviously) or the Vulcan(OBVIOUSLY). I've used them extensively after "That Day The TR Wept" and no matter how, where or when a Vulcan got us wrecked. Halberd is also more synergetic with Anchor. However that's not saying much, it gets easily outplayed by its ES equivalents of NC and VS.

    So InB4 "TWO BARRELS", "OMFG ANCHORVELOCITYOP", "VULCAN OP AT 0.5M FOR 1 SECOND AGAINST IMMOBILE TARGET"... Cuz on paper and in theory YEAH the Prowler SOUNDS good, but out there it's a hybrid LR Artillery/CQC(Cuz then why Vulcan!) Tank thing with all the vulnerabilities of both and none of their advantages or at least the other 2 MBTs nullify them.

    Yet here you are talking crap about Prowlers being OP and Mags needing a BUFF!?

    As for the VG shield I say make it a Resist Shield and be done with it.
    Mag could use OmniBurn, Jump Burn(LA too actually but that proved BAD), quick turn Burner, it can have all those and keep its other discreet advantages like ADAD and not being connected to the ground(Thus Rockets missing more easily) ETC ETC. Hell I wouldn't mind if it behaved like the vehicle in "VIRUS 2000". Just limit its HP and make sure it relies on ambushes and speed, not outplay Prowlers at long range engagements. I know speed is supposed to be a TR trait but let's stop pretending all that matters any more. Besides TR are like NS 1.2 already.
    Then make the Prowler either full long range AOE artillery with unique shells or full Mid/CQC Glass Cannon.

    If it were up to me and I had the chance to start from scratch, I'd let the Vannie take Anchor and become a Siege Tank from Star Craft, making it the one and only conventional MBT plus Long Range bonus. Cannister would be CQC AI(Some changes necessary) Enforcer would be the Go-To Mid to LR AV(I guess potentially a bit AI). NS for other roles.
    I'd give the Mag full blown VIRUS 2000 controls but make it extremely fragile, then give it a Resist Shield. PPA is being balanced and would fit nicely in this scenario, Saron would need slight adjustments(Possibly even ... Buffs) but should be fine if the Mag worked like this. NS for other roles of course.
    And lastly I'd give the Prowler Turbo, make it extremely fast(Not too maneuverable though) and make it a CQC paper armour Tank but if it closes in you're ReKd. I'd buff Marauder and Vulcan a little bit and it's done. If Prowlers then want to mix in long range options they can roll Halberd.
    • Up x 1