[Suggestion] Vanguard Revamp Suggestion

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Campagne, Aug 20, 2020.

  1. Campagne

    The current high health, long repairs, and "I-Win" shield aren't really fun or engaging. There's only so much one can really do with a face-tank tank. But what if it had less health and repaired itself?

    I was playing Warframe as Nidus. For the unaffiliated or unaware, Nidus is a tank. Specifically, he's a regen tank. Unlike almost all other frames/"characters" he has no shields, no automatic damage-negating abilities, and only one healing ability which can't be cast normally which only heals over time when standing within the area of effect.

    So how does he survive when every hit deals health damage and he has to stay on the move? He regenerates passively. Instantly upon taking damage and while taking further damage his health, he is always regenerating, effectively increasing his total health pool dramatically against sustained fire.

    Now apply this to the Vanguard: 1000 less health to be put on par with the other tanks, no vanguard shield, and passive, permanent auto-repairs taking the ability slot. No more emergency "I got flanked" button to save the driver, but no more lengthy repairs and much more up time without feeling unfair or sacrificing tankiness.

    This could be implemented as a super NAR or as a 4000HP overshield, though each has their own advantages and disadvantages to them. Personally I think a regular 5000HP tank makes more sense and feels more balanced.

    Disclaimer: This is meant to be an improvement/buff to the under-performing Vanguard.
    • Up x 1
  2. csvfr

    Sadly removing the shield would be a loss for the tank. 67% extra frontal armor means 18000 potential effective hitpoints. In any case it always has at least 6000 HP in the start of a fight. What you suggest, remove 1000 hitpoints and the shield potential, for something as vague as a "super NAR or 4000HP overshield", might as well be the nail in the coffin for the tank. In any case regenerating 18000 HP per 8 seconds constantly (no hitpoints lost, unequivocal improvement) would mean that the tank became invincible.

    But it could get a regular auto-repair or NAR as a passive, all else being the same.

    Alternatively, and a better suggestion IMO, the shield could be augmented to include an emergency repair healing 25% of the hitpoints. This could perhaps even have a passive cert line for improvement starting at 5-10%. In a sense this would add a second dimension to the shield, now serving both to mitigate damage and to repair the tank. With this improvement, the driver could activate the shield at 30% health in a 1 on 1 without worrying about if any potential hitpoints were wasted. After killing an enemy, e.g. a harasser or lightning, he could drive towards the next enemy without stopping to repair the chip damage, because in any case after 35 secs the shield would be ready to automatically repair it.

    This could of course also be implemented simply by putting the emergency repair as a passive, and call it something like "Forward shield linked emergency repair", or rename the shield to "Forward repair shield" (since the emergency repair is on the stock tank regardless).
  3. Campagne

    Your ideas could work as well. I think an automatic repair upon shield activation would certainly help it a lot.

    But the Vanguard wouldn't have to regenerate for the entire potential healthpool of the shield to be effective. For example, say this version of the Vanguard was fighting an AP lightning in a point-blank 1v1, a situation where the Vanguard should never lose. Popping the shield would give the driver a much longer downtime and would leave the tank vulnerable for a while until the shield came back online.

    But if the Vanguard started regenerating instantly upon the first hit and regenerated 117HP/sec, (half the damage of the AP shell in the time it would take a default Lightning AP cannon to reload) the shots to kill and therefore TTK would nearly double. It wouldn't even have to be this effective to improve survival while never relying on a timed ability. And this is already less than NAR can do at max outside of combat!
  4. csvfr

    But this would be grossly inferior in a 1 on 1 versus an AP prowler compared to the status quo. The prowler has the following stats:
    • 3.5 secs per cycle, 342 DPS when fully certed - the shield can mitigate 4 rounds or 2400 damage
    • 2.6 secs per cycle, 461 DPS when fully certed using Barrage - the shield can mitigate 5.33 rounds or 3200 damage
    • A certed halberd fires every 2.75 secs, 218 DPS - the shield can mitigate 2 rounds or 1200 damage
    So when dropping the shield the Vanguard loses 3200 - 4400 hitpoints against a certed Prowler depending on whether or not it has a gunner. And it is usually dead in 15-20 secs. So to be equally effective it would have to regenerate *currently mitigated damage*/*current TTK* = 3200/20 = 160 HP/sec (solo), or 4400/15 = 293 HP/sec (w/ gunner). The last calculation already makes it invincible versus an AP lightning, which has 259 DPS when fully certed.
  5. Campagne

    Hmm, I see. Fair point! Perhaps specific resistance values could be re-instated combined with the regeneration to allow for a more static TTK against a Vanguard?

    Say an AP Lightning's shell dealt only 400 damage and a Prowler's AP only dealt 300, with base repair rate of some value like 100HP/sec (or whatever value would work better)? Ideally the TTK would be lengthened on a Vanguard regardless of weapon while also not making the thing invincible, as it sort of can be in perfect scenarios already. (Working numbers, they're not exact suggested values. :p)
  6. csvfr

    I suppose at its core increasing resistance values is equivalent to increasing both healthpool and regeneration effectivness. If this is balanced according to 1 on 1 scenarios the Vanguard becomes immune towards hit and run tactics and as such invincible from the perspective of a lightning even if playing smart using cover and taking oppurtunity strikes. The vanguard would need to be overwhelmed in order to be taken out. If the regeneration rate is lessened and the healthpool increased the Vanguard becomes even more repair intensive than it is today which would be boring. I have a hard time seeing how to strike a balance with regeneration rate and healthpool, making sure that the Prowler does not become OP against a Vanguard and the Vanguard not OP against a lightning. Maybe it cannot be done? Maybe with differential resistance values perhaps, but this sounds complicated
  7. Demigan

    I think that such an idea would be a knife's edge in terms of balance.

    Accuracy across all tanks isn't 100%. If you can make people miss or hit mostly frontal armor you can reduce their damage output. A high enough health regen could extend the Vanguard's life well beyond a 6000 health with 8 second shield could ever handle if the Vanguard isn't focus-fired. Especially at longer ranged combat this could make the Vanguard almost invincible.
    On the other hand in engagements where it's do-or-die easy accuracy combat (mostly CQC or peek-a-boo combat) the already bad Vanguard base chassis would suddenly lose almost any type of combat if the regen isn't ludicrously high as it has nothing to exploit to best it's opponent besides it's health-pool.

    And let's not forget infantry. Even if you get the health regen perfect for tank-on-tank combat, it would likely be too high for infantry to deal with the Vanguard with anything other than C4 or vast numbers.

    The biggest problem I think the Vanguard has is that it's only advantage cannot be actively exploited by the player. You can actively try to make yourself a hard target as a Magrider or you can actively use the higher DPS of the Prowler through flanks and such, but the Vanguard's ability to tank more hits can only be used in self-destructive attempts to make sure their opponent cannot win a pure DPS race by reducing their options to exploit their own advantages.

    The Vanguard needs something unique that the user can actively exploit, preferably several smaller things that can make for a big advantage together and allow the Vanguard user some options to try and get ahead in combat. Rounds that penetrate enemies and can hit those behind, the ability to charge shots, modifications to it's maneuverability (best reverse speed for example), a Co-ax gun etc.
  8. Campagne

    Hmm, I suppose maybe you guys are right. I want it to work, it's a lot more interesting and engaging than just pressing one button, but with the Vanguard being such a one-trick-pony it might not really be doable.

    I would still really like to see some kind of passive regeneration for the Vanguard though. It's really not a great vehicle and even just a very minor baseline NAR would help solve the extra repair times and give it the missing passive ability the other two MBTs have.
  9. Clone117

    instead of an 8 second resist shield just extend its active duration to 20 seconds. a single change like that should up the vanguard survivability plenty allowing for a more aggressive/ reckless playstyle. When it comes to farther ranged combat magrider and prowler hold an edge. Extending the shield active duration should allow enough survivability to close the distance and engage more effectively. While under fire.
    • Up x 1
  10. csvfr

    Have to correct myself slightly here. As the shield must be activated while the prowler fires both rounds (taking 0.5 seconds), this makes it only possible to have 7 rounds hit the shield in the barrage scenario, which means that the shield can only mitigate 4.66 rounds or 2800 Damage. Calculations with perfect activation:
    @0.5 seconds 2 rounds have hit the shield
    @3.1 seconds 4 rounds have hit the shield
    @5.7 seconds 6 rounds have hit the shield
    @7.8 seconds 7 rounds have hit the shield
    The 8th round would hit .5 seconds later which is after the shield has deactivated. In usual scenarios though the Vanguard only mitigates 4 full rounds, as drivers tend to activate it immediately after they have been hit instead of trying to time it with the opponent's reload.
    • Up x 1
  11. csvfr

    This brings us to the TTK values:
    TTK Fully certed AP Vanguard - 850 damage - 3.25 seconds per shot
    0s - 850 dmg
    3.25s - 1700 dmg
    6.5s - 2550 dmg
    9.75s - 3400 dmg
    13s - 4250 dmg
    16.25s - 5100 dmg

    TTK Fully certed AP Prowler w/ Barrage - 1200 damage - 2.6 seconds per 2 shots
    0.5s - 1200 dmg
    3.1s - 2400 dmg
    5.7s - 3600 dmg
    8.3s - 4800 dmg
    10.9s - 6000 dmg
    13.5s - 7200 dmg
    16.15s - 8400 dmg

    NOTE: at 15.5 secs there is 0.1 secs left of reload when barrage ends, which is why the next shots are away at 16.15 secs instead of 16.1. I'm so sick of hearing people proclaim the Vanguard has the TTK advantage with the shield when it clearly dies (which I have myself countless of times) 0.1 seconds before finishing off the Prowler, unless the shield is timed properly with the opponent's reload. So not only is the tank slower and more repair intensive, it also doesen't necessarily win a heads on engagement with the faster Prowler.
    • Up x 1
  12. Demigan

    Look I really want to go cheer for anything that shows the Vanguard being inferior so that the Vanguard can be altered and buffed to where it should be, but I have to point out problems even if it doesn't support my case.

    Years ago I did a test with the Prowler. It fires like this:
    1 shot instantly, 0.5 seconds, 1 shot, 0.5 seconds, reload.
    That meanst that there is 1 second total of refire time before the reload starts. With your numbers that would mean 3.1 seconds per cycle, not 2.6 seconds. That means that your cycle is about 3 seconds off.

    Mind you this was a test I did more than 4 years ago, and I would not be surprised if they stealth-buffed the Prowler by removing the second 0.5 seconds refire time somehow.
    Another thing: I remember an RPM being listed for the Vanguard and Magrider main guns in the past. I never tested it, but the Vanguard and Magrider main guns could secretly also have a refire time before their reload starts. Perhaps someone could retest this for the Prowler and one other MBT?
    • Up x 3
  13. csvfr

    It seems like you are right, tested the Prowler in VR just now:
    Even added a timer making it easier to see, it uses 3.1 seconds per cycle when Barrage is activated

    The Vanguard seems to have a slight ~0.1 second additional delay too
    • Up x 4
  14. Demigan

    Hurray for proper testing!

    Did you try the Vanguard/Magrider as well?

    Also I hate Movavie or whatever and other such "trial" versions that only use a "subtle watermark" across the entire damn screen.