Upcoming Tank and Liberator Changes

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Kevmo, Jun 6, 2014.

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  1. Tuco

    Well most gunners in PS1 do get impatient unless they're at point blank range. Actually I like to sit back and shell targets from far away because...

    A) It's a prowler with lockdown
    B) I see no need for any fancy footwork if I can do it from way back here
    C) I like doing it at long range
    D) let the pawns waste their prowlers at point blank range while I get the kills, mwuahhahahaa
    E) The pawns at point blank range are blocking my shot if i'm at point blank range as well
  2. Riddlley

    All tanks should have a coaxial Kobalt. /done
  3. Tuco

    Hits *like* twice


    Hits *like* a third time
  4. Maelthra

    The problem is that they didn't say they were changing just the velocity. Kevmo's post said that the range reduction would be done by adding gravity and reducing velocity. Gravity can affect how much a tank projectile drops without changing its' velocity. This can encourage tanks to get closer in order to reliability hit their shots and still leave the Magrider screwed when it comes to dodging shots at those closer ranges.

    If they were only changing velocity, then you would be right. A reduction purely in velocity would mean that the Magrider would be able to effectively strafe to avoid damage at closer ranges than it can now. However, since they are changing both gravity and velocity, then it is not at all clear yet how these changes will affect the Magrider's ability to dodge shots at the closer ranges that the devs are aiming for. However, since gravity is factored into this instead of purely velocity, I would say that it is likely that the current strafe speed of the Magrider will not be entirely enough to compensate for the reduced effective range of tank engagements.
    • Up x 2
  5. RadarX

    Folks we absolutely appreciate all this feedback. Let me clarify these are proposed changes. The teams goal is as always balance but we absolutely want your feedback. We'll be watching this thread closely.
    • Up x 1
  6. AssaultPig

    good changes! Libs are flagrantly overpowered atm and anybody who isn't spending 50% of their time in one can see that. I'm not sure the resistances being reverted is really warranted, but maybe the changes to tank cannons will help mitigate that.

    I dunno about the tank changes; I like the reverse speed from a self-preservation standpoint, but I also feel like the current tank game rewards positioning and it might not feel as good if position is a lot easier to change when you get into trouble.
  7. Obstruction

    why not a skyguard? i've always thought it's kindof stupid to waste a whole lightning on it. i mean you could keep the standard lightning skyguard and maybe even buff it a little like the more reasonable people have been asking. but then make a Skyguard, Jr. that'd be perfect for MBT tertiary, or Sunderer/Harasser weapon. i say "Jr." in the sense that it'd have a small % less damage and clip size, and cert investment than the full sized, lightning mounted version.

    but naaaaaaaaaaaaaaah just make Libs unusable.
  8. Tuco

    Can we break this topic up into:

    1) Nerf the lib, but don't turn tanks arcade.
    2) Don't nerf my lib, what's a tank?
  9. axiom537

    Lock-down on the Prowler is such a broken OP mechanic its not even funny.
    • Up x 1
  10. Klypto

    The Ranger has the damage output just about equal to a single MAX burster arm.

    The point of the tankbuster having so much damage was it could take a risk in getting in close to take out a tank very quickly. The danger was that infantry and tanks would be able to hit it with shells and rockets, so it wouldn't be the first choice option.

    The problem with the tankbuster was that there was no sound to indicate you are about to be tankbusted until it's already hitting you. The lack of engine noise on the lib is the problem there.

    I already included the ammo capacity nerf.
    • Up x 4
  11. SlingBlade

    Please don't give into the vocal minority like you did with the proposed reverse maneuver nerfs. These changes will benefit the vast majority of players and take away a lot of instances where people get killed and feel like they had no way to counter it;

    With the small exception of an accidental nerf to the magrider by upgrading the other two MBT's it is a fantastic patch. A lot of these issues have been huge beefs with me and my outfit mates. They are really annoying issues that were overlooked for far too long. It is great to see them taking steps to address the feedback of players.
    • It takes away the excessive range that liberators could attack vehicles from.
    • It nerfs the tankbuster to take away the insane tankbuster + 1-2 dalton shot combo to kill tanks/sundies.
    • The nerf to surprise tankbuster attacks against air helps too.(once the lib sound increase goes live this won't be as much of an issue)
    • It will also make dalton libs far less effective vs ESF's and other libs which is great.
    • The patch takes away the effectiveness of super long range tanks
    • Playing my alt MBT's or my lightning won't be so painful because i can actually hit stuff while I move
    • Rocket pods are getting a much needed nerf, they should be for finishing off heavily damaged vehicles. Taking on undamaged vehicles should be left to libs or ground vehicles. I actually stopped using them because they were so overpowered, i only used them for the first couple months and i am still fairly high up on the rocketpod leaderboard.
    • Allowing tanks greater mobility and non VS tanks the ability to actually land shots while moving will definitely shake up the tank gameplay. I am very optimistic this will be a positive change that will lead to more interesting tank battles.
    • The long range tank vs tank snipe fests are really boring so the reduction in effective range is a welcome change
    For anyone who might dismiss me as someone who doesn't like using Dalton libs, rocket pods or long range tanks. I love using them but i definitely see why they needed these nerfs. I don't want to ruin the game for other just because i want to cling onto some overpowered option. https://www.planetside2.com/players/#!/5428010618019907969/vehicles
    • Up x 2
  12. Klypto

    It's only powerful at range. Up close it's a pretty serious disadvantage.
    • Up x 3
  13. maxkeiser

    Magrider 'getting closer' is the first issue. It's not what the magrider was designed for.

    A magrider driver getting close to a prowler/vanguard is doing something wrong (unless it is to finish off an already damaged victim).

    The magrider is a ranged weapon platfom, designed to use speed and manoueverability to keep the enemy at distance and escape if required.
    • Up x 2
  14. axiom537

    The last thing tanks and this game is another AA weapon. What was needed was a complete remake of top armor, so that it would provide increased resists vs all Air ordinance and if tanks could elevate their main guns a little higher, then they would be able to counter/resist libs much more effectively.
  15. Scr1nRusher

    I feel like all of these changes could be a good thing for the game.

    But holy crap people are freaking out for no good reason.

    Perhaps they should test the changes out ingame and see how they actually work?
  16. kadney

    And once again we get rubbed it into our faces. All tank changes impact vehicle mobility, shooting while moving and they get forced to get closer into battle.
    And now read the description of Anchor Mode.. :( and brace yourselves for the incoming "IWINSHIELD vanguard OP" threads.. remember my words..
  17. kadney

    Can we get a new TR ES MBT ability then? :rolleyes:
  18. axiom537

    It's OP at range and even up close if you are smart its incredibly effective if used right, I would not call it a disadvantage, because if you do not use it, then there is no disadvantage.
    • Up x 1
  19. Klypto

    I'm pretty sure you are the only overly biased person here that is not apposing at least something being changed.
    • Up x 2
  20. dstock

    Since I can only give you one Like, I thought I'd repost this to the last page, add a few small comments, and then ruin everyone's enjoyment of the game by explicitly stating where this is obviously going.

    Firstly, congratulations are in order for SOE, as they are preparing to, yet again, make diverse and sweeping changes to multiple platforms, instead of considering some smaller adjustments and seeing how things play out.

    1) Tanks get more 'mobility'
    2) Tanks get stabilized guns
    3) Tanks get slower projectiles/more gravity

    IMO, no problems here. The mobility is useful, the community has been begging for stabilized guns for ... a year and a half?, and hopefully the Magrider gets the lightest touch from the projectile nerfing.

    1) Lower Range on belly weapons
    2) Lower ammo count on belly weapons
    3) Nerf the Bulldog, arguably the only tail weapon worth a damn, save for the Walker, which fills a completely different role.
    4) Nerf the Tankbuster
    5) Nerf Tank Shell Resistance

    As far as numbers 2 and 5 are concerned, I'm fully in support, these changes needed to be made long ago. My only caveat with 2 is that, pending the 'buffs' for the Duster, it can't afford to lose too much starting ammo and still have a use, as the cert extension only adds one magazine per rank. Tank shells are going back where they were, and I couldn't care less.

    This leaves 1, 3 and 4. Let's consider each belly weapon, and how many times the 'range' has already been nerfed. Addition of CoF to Dalton and Zephyr, addition and continuous manipulation of the gravity coefficient and projectile origin. Now, they are going to slow the projectiles down. I'm not going to argue this is bad, per se, but I would like to see the CoF of the Dalton and Zephyr eliminated (the Dalton CoF doesn't even make sense, it's a single-shot weapon...), and the gravity coefficient reduced, so we don't have absurd drop on our new, even slower projectiles. As long as they all stay at 150m/s+ (and the Duster is buffed up to this range), I can live with #1.

    The Bulldog is currently the only tail weapon I see most Libs using. Sure, there are the scattered fans of the Hyena missiles, and I always bring up my masochistic acquaintance who likes the Drake, but outside of them, it's all Bulldogs and Walkers these days. It provides a loadout balancing option for both the Shredder and Dalton. What I don't understand is the hate, I wondered, 'Why are we nerfing the Bulldog'? The kill-shot, IMO, was saying they're considering reducing the splash damage. Hey, SOE, you already did, a year ago, you castrated it when you were balancing AI potential of all the other 'NON-AI' weapons. I think the real question is what is the Bulldog's role now? If it's not AV, AI, or AA, then it sounds like garbage to me. I better go clear off some shelf space in the garage between the Spur and the Vektor...

    Wow, that's a quote straight out of Forumside, if I've ever seen one. 'It's good at everything,' the whiner's ace in the hole. Let's consider each thing it could be good at, and see how true it is.

    AA: Fighters tailing your Lib/Galaxy and failing to evade are going get gibbed by skilled users. It was already nerfed at AA recently, when Lib/Galaxy resistances were adjusted so it took more shots to kill these vehicles. The only reason it gets a rep for being good at AA is because it 2-3 shots ESFs, that are completely failing to make the most of their speed and maneuverability, their one designed advantage. The Walker has way better range, and synergizes better with the Shredder for AA work in multi-target scenarios. Ever seen a Lib Tail Bulldog deter multiple fighters? It doesn't happen, unless it's heavily certed (9+ rounds), the gunner is practiced, and the pilot is skilled enough to offer the belly shots, as well. That's asking an awful lot of your 'Average Joe' crew.

    AI: No way, give it back half the outer-splash radius it used to have, and we'll talk. It's currently a suppression weapon, and the magazine is simply too small to do a good job at it. When I sit on a Bulldog, I go for direct hits these days, splash damage is only considered if I can't actually see someone I want to kill.

    AV: I will consent, this one is probably accurate. The projectile velocity that keeps it viable at short-medium range AA work makes it a beast for close-quarters AV.

    My real issue here is that if the Bulldog is too good at AV and AI, what the hell is it's role? The M-60G (ground version), is obviously an AI-focused mortar with supplemental AV functionality. The Air version differs only in projectile velocity and gravity. The point I'm trying to make is that it's naturally a hybrid-role weapon, and arguably always has been. The ground version is a black sheep, a red-headed stepchild. The air version is successful because of the mobility and the angles you can present it, coupled with a high projectile velocity and low drop.

    I'm basically making the case for SOE that the projectile velocity/gravity combo probably does need adjusting. Fine, I'll live with it. My theme was, though, that it's already been nerfed at both of its intended uses, the people using it for AA are those who put in the time and certs to set it up that way, and that if they're really going to make it even worse, there needs to be considerations made for what use it will have afterwards.

    I propose that instead of just crippling the velocity and gravity, we give it the full belly-gun nerf:
    Cut the Ammo Capacity in half. I've got Lib&Gal Bulldogs on all of my characters. None of them have ammo cap certed past 4, most have rank 1 or rank 3. Even with these low ranks, I almost never run dry. It simply holds too much ammo. With the low RoF and long reload (everyone certs MagCap on a Bulldog), it's almost impossible to use it all up before getting shot down or needing to resupply a different weapon.
    Reduce the projectile velocity (as stated) and increase drop to shorten the range.

    As compensation, return the Lib and Galaxy resistances to where they were before. A small part of the Liberator issue was that one of the Libs natural predators, the Bulldog Battle Gal, was nerfed at the same time the Lib was buffed. Make this competition more intense, make both planes weaker to the shorter-range, limited ammo Bulldog I'm proposing.

    Also, return 1 or 2m to the outer splash radius, so it can be more effective suppression and area denial against infantry. We already cut one wing Bulldog on our Battle-Gal setups to run a Drake for better AA/AV. If the range on the Bulldog is truly crippled, there won't be any point in running one. Make it an AI weapon with supplemental AV, like it used to be.

    Sorry, that got really long and ranty. Almost done.

    The last thing I wanted to discuss was the Tankbuster. I'm going to come out and say it, maybe the TB is too good at AV/AA. But, the way to fix it is not to nerf it for the 5th time, at least, not harshly. This is the same scenario we have with the ES AI weapons. The PPA is good, the other two are garbage. Sadly, just like this situation, I expect the PPA to be nerfed heavily in the next few months, instead of doing what actually needs to be done: MAKE THE OTHER OPTIONS WORTH USING. TankBuster vs Vektor/Spur is the same sad story. The Vektor has some utility: it's good at long range and against turret emplacements. This gives it a niche in the Liberator arsenal, because none of the other weapons are very long range, or good against turrets. The Vektor is hampered by an overly long reload, and a low RoF. There is nothing else wrong with this gun. The Spur, on the other hand, has a slightly higher RoF, but has an insanely low damage profile, at all ranges, to compensate for the free-look aim no one asked for. The right call was to add the Spur functionality as a utility slot for the Vektor, and give the Vektor a small bump in RoF. Make pilots choose between extended magazine, reload speed, or free-look aim. Those are real utility options, unlike the magcap vs. reload argument we have on everything else. I understand it's too late to do that, so now SOE is stuck trying to come up with ways to make both of these under-utilized, under-performing weapons worth using. Sadly, the only option left is to take their competition and nerf it into the ground, until they become viable options.

    TL|DR: To recap, I have no real qualms with the tank changes, I just hope the Magrider is given a fair shake, since we're basically passing out it's strength to the other tanks, without giving it much in return. Lib resistance to tank shells is being reduced, this in conjunction with the tank changes should go a long way in making that match-up more interesting. Lib belly guns are getting their ammo reduced, and I think this change is long overdue, save for the Duster. Lower range on the belly weapons is also liveable, as long as the projectile velocity stays well above where the Duster is currently (100m/s, so IMO, 150m/s should be the low end), the Shredder doesn't face double jeopardy in having it's damage profile adjusted along with it's shell velocity, and the Duster is buffed in some way (slight increase to proj. vel., further reduction to full-auto CoF, reintroduction of the extended magazine utility I still have in VR [+6 shells, if you haven't seen it]). The Bulldog change is complete BS, they are taking a weapon that already lacks a real niche, and making it worse at everything, without any consideration for what this will do to it's overall viability. Make it better against Libs/Gals, and give it a tiny bit of that blast radius back. Leave the anti-ESF work to the Drake and Walker, I can live with that. Finally, the Tankbuster is being nerfed further, when all we really need is to make the other two options competitive.

    So, way back when I started writing this post, I said I would explicitly state where this is heading. Consider what this announcement implies: vehicle combat is occurring at ranges beyond where SOE wants it, so their reigning it back in. MBT vs Lib is a huge part of the 'combined arms' element of this game, and as a whole, I don't mind what they're trying to do. There is also a lot of overlap in this announcement: Libs are losing resistance to tank shells, but tank shells are going to be slower. The TB is going to get nerfed, but tanks are going to be more mobile, and have a better chance returning fire while moving. The Bulldog is going to all but disappear on aircraft, meaning lots of additional Walkers/Drakes out there, pounding on ESFs and leaving the poor squishies on the ground alone.

    Tell me, comrades, if MBTs and Libs are going to be engaging each other more than ever, and both sides are losing engagement range, what else is going to happen?

    Harassers. Close range AV/AA predators. Tanks won't be able to snipe mid-range buggies anymore, but they'll be more mobile, so no more tears. Libs are going to lose some effectiveness on the TB, Belly Guns minus Duster, and Bulldog, all of which currently shred the Harasser. That means the two biggest threats to Harassers are getting nerfed. Start certing your Walkers, boys. It's almost time to party.

    I know what he hates, and when he sees the conclusion I came to, he'll be reaching for his torch and pitchfork like everyone else. Hey, Scr1nRusher, these changes mean Harassers will be making a comeback. Get your mines ready :p
    • Up x 5
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