Upcoming melee changes. Should they also include MAXs?

Discussion in 'MAX' started by Makora, Oct 8, 2014.

  1. Makora

    As someone who loves to stomp around in a MAX I just remembered how in ages past there were some model mockups for MAX melee weaponry. One was even comically implemented on a VS infiltrator. The NC had a hammer, VS a double-sided sword of sorts and the TR got something that resembled brass knuckles.

    Now I don't perfectly agree with the TR weapon of choice (if those were the official assets for PS2 to begin with). For example considering the look of the TR MAX and the lore of TR, I would prefer either a sword of sorts or just plain old bare hands, so to speak. The former has a much more traditional sense to it, and seeing as TR is tradion, kind of fits. However the MAX itself has this semi-hunched, menacing look to it. The kind where it's just a small tease away from tearing you to shreds, limb from limb. And just purely with the MAX's own bare two hands bashing the enemy to pulp sounds more awesome then any fancy shmancy weapon.

    So the question, and discussion, is that should MAX's also benefit from the upcoming melee changes? To those who don't know, you will be able to equip your knife by holding the melee button down, and your "fire rate" will double. Should something like this be implemented for MAX's or should melee weapons, if they ever come to MAX's be a weapon you unlock and equip, rather then switch to mid combat.

    I will, also mention a problem with synergy. Especially with the ES abilities. Now the NC's hammer and shield do work. I mean, there's a joke to be made about thunder hammers and storm shields. ZOE, despite how underpowered people think it is, has a speed boost that also lends itself well to getting in close, with the standard charge being a close second (you can't attack and change direction as sharply). Lockdown however has no synergy with a melee weapon if it were to go in "as-is".
    There is a possibility to convert the concept of lockdown by having a melee only function. You lockdown and you are immobile and can't attack, but you're also damn near impossible to kill. As in "shrug off ramming galaxies" type tanky. With the purpose of this basically being to lock down pathways, a glorified door, so to speak. But for it to work, you'd also need to make it so the MAX becomes a physical object you can't run through easily.
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  2. Blackinvictus

    I would be for disabling your ranged weaponry if you equipped the melee weapon. That'd be a hard life though since literally every thing in the game can damage you at range. Would be fun to close the gap and crack skulls though!
  3. DatVanuMan

    Well, MAX-melee weapons?
    Sure. As long as MAXes can no longer use ranged weapons, I LIKE!
    Also, I LOVE the idea for the Lockdown ability! Sure, you can't move or attack, but being nearly impossible to kill would be hilarious! I vote up for that idea. As for ZOE, the "movement bonus" you speak of does absolutely nothing, although it is being buffed soon.
  4. vanu123

    Charge does a better job at what ZOE is supposed to be good at without:
    Blinding yourself
    Taking 30% more damage
    Being Stuck in the ability when you are using it and not being able to turn it off.
    ZOE has no justifiable use over charge and even ammo canisters at least serve a purpose if you're solo maxing because they increase your longevity of staying in the field.
  5. Makora

    I also prefer the idea of melee weapons being something you equip, not switch to. But the point of defense you raised does raise some concerns. One thing I can think of is that we give these weapons an "alternate fire" where you block damage coming from one direction. That however overlaps the NC's shield. So that idea is out of the question. Also, that could be the POINT, the sacrifice you, as a MAX make. Because arguably, having fast, hard-hitting melee weapons means you will lay some fedex fast waste do damn near everything on two legs in reaching distance. How you get to that reaching distance is entirely the user's problem.

    ZOE is a touchy subject, on one end you want it to be useful but on the other end you have to consider the history of the ability. I always felt that whatever speed buff it had made it's function overlap with charge's too much. But putting on just a damage buff that affects melee (probably turning it into a OHK) does sound like a disaster waiting to happen. What is this ZOE buff that's going to happen? That's the first I've heard of it.
  6. Who Garou

    I'm kind of underwhelmed at the melee damage Max's do.

    If I can get killed form a couple of melee hits from another soldier then I can only assume that one good shot from power-armor is going to kill me.

    ... and, if a Max gets close enough to a vehicle to do melee damage, it should be doing damage to that vehicle. I mean seriously, it's a power armor suit and how lame of a vehicle pilot are you if you are letting a Max get that close to you. How often can/does that happen?! If a Max made it to a Sunderer, it should be able to tear it apart with melee combat - I'm not saying like 2 hitting the Sunderer, but possibly faster than using their ranged anti-ground vehicle weapons.

    What harm does it do to give those big, slow moving power-armor a decent melee attack versus soldiers and vehicles?
  7. Schwak

    If these were implemented I would hope they would be made to be the "MAX killers". Basically remove the high damage that MAX AV weapons have against other MAX's and make the Melee weapons have like 2-3 second TTK on other MAX's.
  8. DatVanuMan

    ZOE was the only reason I'd ever pull a MAX...
    And now she's gone, the poor soul:(
    She takes extra damage, deals NO more damage (And the 10 meter bonus isn't even mediocre in terms of value, it's pathetic), and is slow as hell. If they'd bring back the mobility, that would make me change.
  9. Makora

    In my opinion the biggest issues with ZOE was the mobility. Simply because of ADAD the extra damage you take was meaningless simply because you could dodge far more fire coming your way, in effect making you MORE survivable in a face-punching contest best defense is not getting hit, works 100% of the time against everything.
    I honestly can't give very valid suggestions on how to tweak ZOE into being an ability that's useful but NOT a "go to" But just like on NC and TR, a situational tool that has a time and a place where it shines. ZOE simply had too many hats. A pony that had all the tricks you need. You could roll into battle ADAD and kill damn near everything. Or you could use it like an on-demand charge with full controls. Though to be honest, in a way ZOE being a mobility enhancer does fit with the shield and LD, as the first buffs defense, nerfs firepower. The other buffs firepower (or volume of fire) but nerfs mobility. ZOE at first nerfed defense but buffed both firepower and mobility. So if it only buffed mobilty but nerfed defense, it could of worked better. But then it becomes a direct upgrade/sidegrade to Charge, as in filling the same role and more.

    I believe Higby has mentioned about MAX's getting a look-over in one of his streams. But not in a "MAX Patch" but just tweaking this and that over time. If that is true, I'd also like to see what the people at SOE plan on doing with the ES abilities.

    Good point, but a bit flawed. Considering you need to be REALLY close to use melee weapons, for the NC using melee that has a TTK of 2 seconds to kill enemy MAX's would actually be a direct downgrade as their scat-cannons. That can shred a non-kinetic MAX in less then that and to further ranges too.

    Honestly I much see melee if implemented as a weapon, being a sort of short range, high damage AOE attack. Meaning you leap into a group and start wailing around, you can drop multiple targets with few swings simply because it has a for example 90 degree cone infront of the player that extends 2m out. Anything and everything in that cone will be hit with the full damage of these weapons and any further will be safe.
    In a way it'd a fun thing to use. It'd lack the versatility of the current main weapons, but it'd have some utility. I was even thinking of maybe an alternate attack "ground slam" that stuns people around the MAX, basically a on demand concussion effect.

    Well, the MAX does 250 more melee damage then infantry. And I believe the damage type is different too. But this is an argument that I'm not comfortable tackling, simply because the MAX is a specialist role. It's a fire-support and breach-lead. Anything you do to it, must be sure not to give it too many hats. If you make the MAX capable of tackling too many different types of enemies, you cross over to the "OP land".
    Though the point you raise is a good one, it does have a tricky thing to it where the time it takes to kill a vehicle is too long to even try, or too fast to even bother using anything else.
  10. ComradeHX

    Give TR Maxes chainsaw for replacement of one (or both) weapons.

    1 to 1.5m range, 900 damage(so infiltrators get one-shotted), unlimited ammo, 109rpm just like the knife.
  11. Schwak

    I think the real flaw there is that NC MAX's shotguns and AI weapons in general on MAXs should do way less to other MAXs then they currently do. Basically get rid of planetside 2's 1 size fits all attitude with weapons. LMGs got their hipfire nerfed, fractures got their AI nerfed, Dalton got its splash nerfed, Shredder got its splash nerfed, and so on. Especially something changed as quickly as infantry loadouts (MAXs included) they should be the most specialized of all.
  12. Who Garou

    Aside from the "role", it's Power armor. You aren't getting sliced with a knife you are getting wacked with - by far - more weight than a baseball bat. I think that any infantry that gets that close to a MAX deserves to get one-shot'ed.

    "Too many different types of enemies" is the whole point of a MAX. Depending upon the load-out, it is anti-infantry, anti-ground-vehicle, and anti-aircraft. It is - by default - set up to handle doing battle with every other type of opponent in the game.

    I'm not really sure what your last sentence is supposed to mean. My main confusion comes form " too fast to even bother using anything else."
    As it is, MAXs do next to NO melee damage to vehicles. I'm assuming their melee damage is all infantry damage only. I think it should do at least what the lower-end anti-ground-vehicle weapons do per shot. That really isn't much, but it at least takes into account that it is powered-battle armor.
    The possibility that a MAX even get the chance to use melee attacks on a vehicle are very small. The options are to some how completely sneak up on the target vehicle (say undefended Sunder) or get air dropped onto/near the vehicle. Now, I'm imagining that most of the time you are going to want to use your weapons instead of a melee attack - even at that point. However, if you run out of ammo and you are in a MAX, it is my feeling that the MAX suit still should be able to do sufficient damage to damage a vehicle enough that they could possibly destroy it given time. I imagine the MAXs are not lightweight and that they are not moved by the muscle-power of the occupant. As it is, I don't think that MAXs can do hardly any - if any at all - damage to ground-vehicles. A MAX could step on one of those little ATX things and damage it enough so that it couldn't operate properly anymore.
    I defiantly think that a MAX should have the melee damage necessary to crush the cockpit of aircraft that is left unattended; thus, destroying the vehicle.
    If you are a Lightning driver and you let 4 MAXs pound on your tank a couple of time, I think you deserve to have your lightning destroyed.

    ... but the MAX is the close as we come to "giant robots" in this game, so I think that they deserve a little more destructive melee power than they currently have.
  13. Dracorean

    Melee weapons and MAX suits, you know the concept hasn't really been lost to me, I've always wanted to see this ever since I started playing the game. Whatever weapon that is given to a MAX I would say the synergy needs to work with the empire abilities and the Charge ability.

    A single handed weapon would actually fit for the NC MAX, using a shield as its empire ability, being able to keep the shield ready at all times just sounds right I suppose.

    VS MAX, even with all this talk and what not of the ZoE, weapons that seem to work with speed sounds fitting, something with AoE effect possibly.

    Now the TR, which you started off, 'Fists' or gauntlets actually don't seem right, when your 'stationary' no one would want to get close to you, so a weapon like a spear, something that can reach out would be good, Or can be thrown and dragged back to where the MAX is deployed maybe?

    Now for the Charge ability, its not that its bad or anything, I'm not sure if I'm doing it wrong but when I use it I just dash in a direction unable to stop or pause, If melee weapons are put for MAX units it would be nice if this ability were able to cut off when you want it too, which could give a more aggressive alternative that allows you to close the distance between your foes.
  14. Babbylon

    Give the NC max a sword to go with his shield, or just make him lunge forward and cause damage with the shield, and give the sword to TR?
    VS get a giant glowing horse ****?
  15. Makora

    If you haven't noticed, a hybrid loadout on a MAX rarely if ever makes you effective in anything. Running an akimbo loadout (two of the same type of weapon) gives you the damage output that is ALMOST to a carbine or even closer to a hipfired LMG. At best.
    What I mean by making melee effective against armor is that in this scenario, you might run into scenarios where it's more effective to throw one or two melee MAX's at a deployed sunderer then try and locate a vantage point to take it out from afar with current AV weapons. And given it's a melee weapon, thus primary task is to kill infantry, you become something that is damn near impossible to counter (gal drops, but same can be said of suicide engineers).

    So what I mean by my last sentence was not melee weapons vs current melee. But melee weapons vs all the other options.

    I get your point, I really do. I love my MAX and I do wish it would be more powerful since I pay enough to buy an MBT for it. But given the current atmosphere around the MAX in this community, and what the intended role for the MAX is probably supposed to be, what melee weapons would do to MAX gameplay is a touchy subject. There are more people asking for MAX's to be outright removed then there are those asking them to be buffed (ZoE buffs being the most vocal, but I'm speaking about MAX's in general).

    Also, this is not about what the melee weapons, if implemented, would be able to do. But SHOULD we be getting them in the first place. Again, I point to how standard infantry classes will be able to hold their knife for a twice as fast attack rate. For MAX's how would it work and what purpose would it serve? Just a flavor thing?
    We can theorycraft all we like, I'm simply afraid that if melee gets implemented, if. It'll be nigh useless, or completely OP. I have not been on the PTS recently, nor have I seen any notes on what's going on there. Currently updating the PTS to see if the melee change has been put on there and if there's anything for MAX's.
  16. Exonis

    Actually, a MAX can damage vehicles with the punch, you just have to punch the right spot (underneath Sunderers, back corner of Lightnings) although it only does half the damage of a falcon, or maybe just the damage of 1 falcon? Can't remember.

    I've killed at least 2 Sunderers with my MAX punch, and a Lighting.
  17. UnDeaD_CyBorG

    ZOE has been discussed to death, so 'll avoid that here. It's pointless for melee.

    I'd love getting Melee weapons on MAXes.
    Believability is to be worked on, in any case.
    Infantry carry a variety of weapons. I'm not entirely positive on where a Heavy carries his rocket launcher, but otherwise, there's no real questions asked, it can be abstracted away.
    MAX suits, however, do not.
    There is no 'Omni-MAX', that carries a second weapons loadout.
    That old concept Art that showed VS with an Energy Blade would work, as would Brass knuckles, but a double Blade or a Hammer? Tricky.
  18. Blackinvictus

    I say balance by no blocking ability, but the MAX can basically one-two shot any squishes. Sure he can charge and close the gap and wreak havoc, but can be taken down with effort at range depending on his suit spec. That would just be cool as hell in my opinion. Run out of charge, pay the price or get to safety.