Unified MBT Balance Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Aesir, Mar 19, 2014.

  1. Aesir

    Ok, we have so many Threads right now regarding MBTs and most of it just because of this ...

    And this is a very vague thing. It could mean anything, though most people thing it's a Vanguard Shield nerf. However, it could also be something to bring NS and ES abilities in line, because for example, almost every Vanguard uses shield.

    However, creating tons of Threads about nerfing, buffing and what not is just confusing, yes I also made a Thread with this, but I wish to concentrate all discussions in one Thread, instead of the spread out 7 we have going on right now.

    Most of hose Threads are repeating's of the exact same things, meaning we might aswell have one Thread about it all.

    Here my opinion and that of many others if you read all those Threads is what is actually broken and what is actually "balanced".


    AP/AV TTKs w/o ES Abilities - The only exception is Magrider FPC/Halberd combo, which lacks roughly 1 second of TTK.

    Defense/Mobility Slot Upgrades - The only thing we can talk about here is Vanguard Side Armor, Rival often not worth it in experienced hands and that's it.

    Mobility under experienced usage - The only thing that needs to change is fixing of the bugged Vanguard/Prowler drive model and a 3-5 kmph top speed increase for Magriders.


    TTKs with ES Abilities

    ES vs NS Abilities

    HEAT Gun TTKs in any Secondary combination

    HE Gun AI power in any Secondary combination

    General AI power, regardless of weapons

    ES AI Secondary power

    G30 Vulcan

    Gunner usage, VS use the most gunners, closely followed by NC, while the TR rather pull more 1/2 Prowlers

    Gunner balance, not all Tanks profit equally from having a gunner

    I named the issues, now let's discuss possible solutions to fix them ... I will initially abstain from posting my possible solutions to not really bias any opinions before hand. Though some probably have read my responses in other threads.

    Discuss away ...
    • Up x 5
  2. z1967

    1. This is going to be hard to resolve as long as the Magrider is the only one without a DPS increasing ability/TTK extending ability. I would recommend making Magburn/nos NS (but make it omni-directional for magrider only) and give the magrider a ZOE style ability. Except less likely to get you killed.

    2. The ES abilities are far more powerful and a main point of balancing of the tank. NS abilities are rather UP though. Buffs to FS and IRS are in order.

    3. I do not know anything about this so I am gonna leave this to more experienced drivers

    4. HE itself is in a miserable state. Buffs/adjustments are in order. Prowler HE does not need as substantial a buff as the other two.

    5. Yeah, I think that an AI nosegun should be paired with all of the tank cannons. same switching as for the ESF weapons.

    6. PPA is the best out of them all. Marauder needs to be brought up to it's level and the Canister needs a complete revamp. Even if it just becomes a bigger bulldog it would be much better than it's current state.

    7. With the NC and VS, the secondaries work well with the tank and it's abilities. They also significantly contribute to the DPS of the tank. The Vulcan is kinda fun to use and sounds cool, but it is horribly underwhelming in damage and accuracy. It also does not work well with lock-down prowlers. I honestly would make the Vulcan NS and make a new gatling gun without spin up (so a consistent DPS rate, and COF) that is better geared for use whilst in Lock-down. For bonus points, make the Lock-Down bonuses also spread over to your gunner. That might just increase the number of 2/2 Prowlers. The current situation is that two 1/2 Prowlers is more valuable and destructive than one 2/2 Prowler.

    It should also be noted that any changes also keep the Lightning tank in mind. It really could use some love.
  3. Flag

    I'll politely disagree with these two points (as they're both tied to utility).
    First of all, I don't agree with the need for an omni-burner, and find the forward only to be a required limitation. This neatly leads into...
    Don't balance tanks based on having their ES utility equipped, but make them work independently. The most critical one here is to make sure the shield isn't what keeps the VG rolling, but making sure the tank, even without it, works just fine.

    But is the PPA overpowered? I'm having a hard time deciding, but I'm leaning to "no", although I base that a lot on how the nerfed versions work on the Harasser, where you 'can' pick and chose between the fury, bulldog, PPA and Kobalt.
    So please take it with a grain of salt.

    I'm one of those who are of the opinion that the Vulcan is a flawed concept, where the ideal solution would be to come up with a new weapon, with new functionality.
    However that's not going to happen, as that takes a lot more time and effort than it's likely to be worth.

    Poor lightning. :p
    At least it gets to enjoy the C75 Viper at the moment. :D


    Anyway, I had this idea once.
    Give the Magrider faster firing main guns. Not by much, but enough so that it goes from doing the least damage (with tied lowest armour) to doing the middle ground. It can't be done in isolation, as with most changes to the game, but at least it would mean that based on the reliable statistics of damage output and durability (mobility is so flimsy), the same tank wouldn't be on the bottom in both categories.
    • Up x 1
  4. Aesir

    Hold your horses right here ...

    FPC/Saron is balanced and competitive with AP/Enforcer/Halberd versions of Prowler/Vanguard. Excluding all ES Abilities.

    FPC/Halberd is not and would need an adjustment on the VS Halberd end.

    What needs a change is HEAT guns to be balanced in AV Secondary combos to reach a similar balance as the AP/AV versions.

    So your suggested change would imbalance the current AP/AV balance ... we should try to keep the few things that actually are balanced.

    On the ability subject, they should still be equally viable, even if they are purely utility based.
  5. repairtool6

    I generally just stay away from this discussions cause i dont seems to share views with many of you guys. But maybe i should try once to participate.

    Preface: Being a career tanker is to be in an extremely priviliged position. This is fact. There is way way way too much whining coming from tankers in general. We tankers have it good, dont forget that.

    TTKs with ES Abilities
    no comment. not a big big problem imo.

    ES vs NS Abilities
    no comment. not a big big problem imo

    HEAT Gun TTKs in any Secondary combination
    no comment. not a big big problem imo

    HE Gun AI power in any Secondary combination
    HE is in no shape or form underpowered. They dont deserve buffs and will never recive any.

    General AI power, regardless of weapons
    Just fine. Maybe too good in general.

    G30 Vulcan
    Nerf saron and enforcer. They are insane. Dont buff vulcan up to theyr level

    Gunner usage, VS use the most gunners, closely followed by NC, while the TR rather pull more 1/2 Prowlers
    Gunner balance, not all Tanks profit equally from having a gunner

    True, but overall all tanks profit TOO MUCH from having a gunner. This simple fact is overlooked by the majority in here. Most simply assume this is not a problem and a 2/2 tank should be utterly devastatingly better than a 1/2 tank but i dont.

    In general, any 2/2 tank is just too good with regards to FIREPOWER. The benefit of extra repairman and extra awarness (double vision) is not considered enough. IMO having a 2/2 tank should first and formost extend longivety and versatility of the tank, not make it complete monster as its now.

    Just my opinion
  6. Slandebande

    2: I disagree that the NS abilities are UP, at least on the Magrider/Prowler. On the Vanguard I wouldn't ever equip any of the NS abilities, but I do use FS way more often on my Prowler than I use Anchor. I don't drive the Magrider myself, I usually gun for it, but the rare (AI) times I've been driving, I've used Smoke.

    I also agree that something has to change both with the Vulcan, and Anchor Mode. Either Anchor needs to be revamped to an ability which doesn't limit mobility (or at least doesn't make you stationary), or it needs to have the Deploy / Un-deploy timers changed, to say 5 sec deploy and 1 sec undeploy. If Anchor is kept as is, with changed timers, it is imperative to reduce the benefits gained, and let them benefit the gunner as well, like you suggested. One additional idea I had was to make the Vulcan behave slightly different under the new Anchor mode, in that it would go away from the magazine-fed style it has now, and go over to a belt-fed style while Anchored. This would give it some additional flavor as well, and with some additional tweaks to the weapon (to not make it blatantly OP) it would be a fresh experience.

    Other than that some interesting ideas :) When I get more time I'll have to look closer at the OP and try to make some suggestions myself.

    Nerfing the Saron and Enforcer won't do anything for the TR, as the TR will STILL be fielding the Halberd in massive amounts (and no additional Vulcans). What would change is that less NC and VS would use their ES AV weapon as well, which would be sad.
    • Up x 1
  7. Dinapuff

    Turret stabilization should take priority. After that they can adress lockdown not affecting secondaries, and Vanguard being unviable / underperforming without shield.

    Personally I would like to see a buff to fire-suppression to restore more tank hp than it currently does, or at least a significant cd reduction. Because right now it is not worth it in place of shield. If you buffed fire-suppression hp % to be useful in tank v tank combat then shield would have a reasonable alternative for all tanks to use.

    The magrider should probably get more velocity on their primaries (especially AP) to make it easier and more deadly to wield against moving targets, and possibly more strafe speed as stock. Just seems like it depends too much on Rival (but then again I am not very experienced with the magrider).

    I dunno how it is with other tanks but the vanguard in particular needs more torque to get up inclines and hills with rival / stock frames. It is a sign of poor balancing that speedframe significantly changes how the vannie interacts with steep roads (like the road up towards red ridge communications) or inclines (like the path to the side of quarts ridge / howling pass). By significant change i mean that a vannie with rival or stock simply cannot get up or is forced to drive back down to retry if they are forced to stop at any part of the climb.
    • Up x 1
  8. Flag

    Yes, I know about that.
    However how could you change the halberd and be reasonable about it? It's supposed to be identical (much like the NS utilities). And I'm not sure you can really justify nerfing the saron to compensate either.

    Anyway, it's an idea, thrown out there to get poked, and revised.

    As opposed to what? Remember that the people crewing the tank should get to do something that's meaningful and fun. And as interesting of an idea it could be to have a crew member enable extra shielding/higher durability, that's a very boring task.
    So what would you give a 2/2 tank that a 1/2 does not have, besides more firepower?

    Ps: If your view is that 1/2 tanks should be viable, I can understand why you have trouble finding people sharing your view.
  9. Aesir

    Well, every viewpoint is important, even if you generally disagree and the given feedback is appreciated. I generally suggest that we all should try to keep negativity as low as possible, even if we don't like certain things.

    With that in mind, Tankers are whining because of 3 things and this has less to do with the topic of this thread.

    • We play no role in the bigger picture, nothing we bring is not being brought by Infantry or Air similar or better.
    • Infantry, while organized has a lot of potential, more than Tanks could ever reach, CC proved this that having Tank superiority is meaningless if the Infantry is organized enough.
    • General whining, everybody does it, Infantry, Armor and Air Players. It has more to do with venting frustration than actual common sense.
    I do not agree with your stand point, I understand that the extra repair tool and awareness alone is a boost, but a second Tank brings that to in form of an extra body. The issue is stacking, Tanks need a lot of space for maneuvering and unlike Infantry, have collision.

    The other is that everybody can pull everything, so naturally you have a lot of Tanks at moments, that just vaporize just as quickly as they get spawned. While this is a general issue and this thread is mainly about the balance between the 3 machines.

    But larger battles will create large Vehicle zergs that often hurt your empire more than they actually do good. It might look scary to see 20 enemy Tanks if you glare through a spawn shield, but they are easily dealt with if you are not generally outnumbered. Tanks stack badly and can for this reason be isolated/flanked and easily killed.

    Not to mention that the Tanks often fight among themselves to get into good firing positions and also constantly block each other, which is the cause of many destroyed Tanks.

    Most "dedicated" Tankers stay away from such large fights and you will only find the farmboys and Armored Flash users in those zergs. The real Tankers often scour the outskirts of those large battles and only play frontline Tank in medium sized battles.

    1/2 MBT's should not directly be viable in my opinion, because than you should actually think more about pulling a Lightning if you really do not intend to get a gunner. 1/2 MBT's of course should function but the gunner should be important enough to keep you from pulling 2x Lightnings/soloMBT's. Otherwise the slot would be wasted overall.
    • Up x 2
  10. Flag

    It's not so much that the dedicated tankers are all off on their own(isolated), but rather that the flanks is where their skill can be put to the best use.
    It's also generally the dedicated tankers that know how to use these non-charge-into-their-face tactics and make them work. Essentially, making use of experience.
    • Up x 1
  11. Lucidius134

    Not a tanker but i've seen several sets of statistics post launch and you've gotta keep this in mind:

    When you're discussing the amount of secondary weapon usage, you have to look at ES-AI and MBT-AI. I'm not even going to go into MBT AV because yeah.

    "Prowler has the least amount of gunners"
    "TR use the Lightning the least" (I looked and can't find a cite for this)

    A: SOME TR are pulling 1/2 Prowler instead of Lightnings. MBT ES-AI is range limited and so is the ES-AV. but the double OHK tank cannon is better than HE/HEAT on a lightning in terms of AI. With lock-down scrubbies can make shooting infantry even easier. Other factions (NC namely) are pigeon holed into pulling lightnings for AI.

    "NC have more gunners than TR but less than VS"

    A: They don't have a valid ES-AI option. The higher than TR numbers are from having ES-AV that isn't bad out of rock throwing distance i'm guessing?

    "VS have the most gunners"

    A: Best ES-AI because no bullet drop explosives score direct hits easier + lash better + are better at range than lobbing grenades. We also got an alright ES-AV which can work like a 5 round battle rifle for AI.

    That's just how I see it anyways. Assuming the lower MBT Main cannon DPS on the Magrider also encourages people to double up more.
    • Up x 1
  12. repairtool6

    Yes, exactly. I dont deny its a very unpopular opinion. But i stand by it.

    (sorry for bad english now..try and understand with good intention..dont read to much exaggeration in my meaning...)

    Not dont get me totally wrong. Dont exagerate my meaning 100% . 2/2 tanks should obviously be preferable in every shape. I dont mean multiple 1/2 tanks should be the go-to. I think a 2/2 tank could very very well still be viable even if you tone down the sheer firepower-aspect of the secondary gunner. Not REMOVE the advantage of a 2/2, but tone it down. This is with regard to sheer firepower.

    In a sense a 2/2 tank now is not focused on real teamplay. Often the gunner and the secondary gunner dont have different roles. They both are weapon operators first and foremost. In battle the gunner does as the driver does. Then the driver gets them somewhere safe and they both jump out and repair. Doing the same.

    Hmm...you understand?
  13. z1967

    I was thinking that the Omni-burner would be used in the similar way the Vanguard shield is used, to extend the TTK. I wanted it to be NS because I really want to see turbo tanks. It would really help with hill climbing.

    On the ES Utilities, I agree with you on that. Stock units should really get a few things by default just like infantry got. This applies to armor and air (maybe add a vehicle questionnaire?). That way we could actually balance based on abilities based on the level one abilities. Just a thought,

    I am also on the fence for it. On one hand, the Harasser version (just like all of the others) is not really that powerful. But on the other hand, it is the best performing of all of them. I am leaning towards OP, but I would rather buff the others (and rework the Canister) to be on it's level.

    I think they should remove the spin-up and just make the DPS consistent and accurate. No expanding COF, just a solid DPS weapon. Shouldn't be too complicated but what do I know.

    I wish they would nerf the thing. It is way too good and out classes HEAT in nearly every category, Outperforms HE, and does way too much AP damage. But HEAT has always been kinda trash, HE is abysmal at best, and AP is kinda needing of a buff. At least it can't compete with the Skyguard :).

    It would require several other stat changes but yeah this could work. And on a three trait system it would theoretically work. It would have to be tested extensively though. Imo, all vehicles should get a velocity buff for AV weapons, especially the Magrider and Lightning.
    • Up x 1
  14. Qaz

    When you see "gunner rates" being mentioned, this refers exclusively to AV gunners because they're the ones that are relevant for MBT v MBT.
    • Up x 1
  15. Aesir

    A general thing I probably should have mention in the original post is that the goal here is to get the three different MBTs balanced with one another and in their capability against others targets, in their own ways.(otherwise we might aswell have an NS MBT)

    Meaning, a Vanguard should be just as good at "farming" Infantry as a Prowler or Magrider, the same in return goes for AV and other aspects.

    I know that there are some inherent mechanics of the three tanks that mess with this, like Prowlers having two rounds or Vanguards having very slow reloads. And I wish to retain these unique things and still get stuff balanced within a reasonable time frame.

    Not meaning that complete redesigns and the likes should not be discussed, but we need a solution that SOE can implement with relative ease. The more complex stuff can happen later.
    • Up x 1
  16. z1967

    Focusing mainly on that, perhaps what the Primary can't do the Secondary makes up for? Eg. the Prowler has great AI so the AV gun picks up the slack? or that the Vanguard excels at AV so the Secondary is amazing at AI? Just a way to take advantage of having two seats.
  17. Qaz

    Re ESAI weapons:

    The PPA benefited tremendously from the nanoweave nerf in PU2 (as did all other splash based weaponry). Before PU2, it was generally regarded as slightly underwhelming, and now it's performing rather well. The weapon itself is ok to use, and it's most effective in the hands of a good gunner due to its really low projectile velocity. It might do just a tad too much damage, but i'm not quite sure, to be honest.

    Marauder: The harasser version showed that this weapon has the potential to be absolutely devastating. Yet, the MBT version has never been really used, and I suspect the close-range/burst nature of the weapon to be the culprit. Transforming it into a fracture clone (no AV damage, naturally) could fix both of these issues.

    Canister: This thing is crap and I have no idea what to do with it. It needs to be viable up to at least mid-range (200m) and it needs to have splash. Does anyone have an idea that satisfies both of those criteria?
    • Up x 2
  18. Aesir

    I understand your point, but in battle repair has been a thing, atleast for Vanguards since quite a time. I devised a Vanguard train for my Outfit and we do use the in battle repair extensively.

    The role of Driver and Gunner among the really coordinated crews constantly switch, which is why under those organized circumstances I keep my MBT squad locked, so the gunner can jump into the driver seat, while I repair or that I can boost my DPS by hopping between Driver/Gunner slot, while the initial Gunner is repairing.

    This is mainly to maintain fire, while also best using the heat of each repair tool.
  19. z1967

    Maybe for the Canister we could make it a Bulldog with less drop? Or a quad Falcon rocket Launcher. Both sound cool to me and more useful than a shotgun.
  20. Aesir

    My general Idea was that every MBT has a small AI weapon for his Gunner, meaning more reasons to have a gunner, outsourcing general AI to a weapon slot that does not affect the AV side and at the same time, does not give even more reason to pull 1/2 MBTs.

    So that your Gunner has his normal main weapon, be that a Halberd or PPA. But also a Kobalt in a second slot he can swap to, ESF style. To easily implement this would be just by moving the current Kobalt into a separate slot and retain all certs.

    Later down the line we could get different ES versions of that general AI slot, like a Gauss SAW esq LMG for the NC and so on.

    The OHK of the Prowler could remain, because the LMG adds a suppression effect to the other two, especially the Vanguard. Under gunned circumstances the double OHK is in my opinion not the issue of the Prowler, it was the suppression you can get out of it, that the others could only achieve with dedicated AI guns.
    • Up x 1