Introduction Hello all, thanks for taking some time and reading this. I'll try to keep this quick and simple, but I probably won't do a good job of it so bear with me. The purpose of this thread is to help you, the devs, and myself better understand the general view of what is too much grinding and what the "grind" means to different people. I'll be explaining my current understanding of it and theories related to it, but there's also a small survey I would appreciate you filling out so I can collect data and actually be able to apply my theories. In the interest of simplicity, if you're not that interest in the methodology involved, feel free to skip that section. The Simple Version OK the really simple version is I want to figure out on average how much reward do players need to get them to do something. Basically I'm asking at what point do players generally look at something and say "too much of a grind" and not go for it. Hopefully, the devs may see and use this information to improve the game as a whole. I need your help though. Fill out the survey near the bottom of the thread if you'd be so kind so I may collect data. Why I'm Doing This First off, why am I doing this? Well primarily, I'm an anthropologist. More specifically, I'm an anthropology student working towards a degree in it, but you get the idea. Unfortunately for many, anthropology is not really about pith helmets and living in the Amazon basin with people who have never seen a European before. Mostly, at least cultural anthropology, it's about looking at data and making graphs to prove things people already know or answer questions no one asked. I, however, rather enjoy it. Furthermore, I greatly dislike grinding. I have pretty severe ADHD and doing anything even remotely repetitive without instant gratification is my idea of hell and is in general virtually impossible for me. I've learned to deal with it, but become interested in how "normal" people compare. So really, this is a lot about personal curiosity, but not entirely. The results and general discussion here, may be able to directly profit you. If devs were to see this and decide to use the information collected here, things might get better. Of course that's working on the assumption the devs will see and use this information, which no one can promise, but of all the games I've played it seems this one has the highest likelihood of that happening. So on to it all. The Science and Methodology Simply put, I define grinding (in an MMO or general video game context) as "the repetition of a single, or several generally similar, monotonous task for an end reward". That has a rather negative tone to it, and doesn't really fit this game, however, so I'll also just say "enjoying little to no immediate reward for time and effort in exchange for enjoying a larger reward in the future". Basically, at its core, a lot of game design is about balancing a lot of little rewards and big but rare rewards. Think of it like a simple dungeon. You can put a single gold piece on every floor tile, or you can give the player nothing but put a million in a single chest at in the very last room. In reality, it's best to find a balance between the two. Each of those extremes have pros and cons, you see. If there is a gold piece on every floor tile, well at first the player will think that it's just the best dungeon ever. However, by the time they're half way through, they'll either be sick and tired of picking up every little gold piece or will have nothing left to buy with all that gold and will just forget about the dungeon. On the other extreme, without any reward along the way, the player very well may simply give up and deem it not worth their time and energy, even if they know of the reward at the end. This comes down to what I'm kind of studying here, a phenomenon I like to call "grind traction". It's similar to how a tire works, really. Basically, the engine of a car just rotates the tires, but because the tires have traction, instead of spinning in place, they roll forward. However, the traction can be broken (thus causing the tires to spin in place and the car to lose control) if the traction is lessened, be it by wear or wet roads, or the amount of power applied is too much. The same principles apply to gameplay. The tire in this case is the player. Give them too much reward (power) and they'll break traction (stop playing), but give them a slippery surface to hold on to (not enough reward), and they'll break traction too. And what it really comes down to is the player weighing time and effort vs. reward. My first example of a gold piece on every tile, would look like this: T/E (Time and/or Effort): 1 Reward: 10 Now, it is a bit more complicated than that. If the player has yet to be rewarded for anything, they'll go at a 1:10 ratio like mad with more energy than you an imagine. It won't last long though. If, however, they've put all this T/E into something and received no reward, but they know it's just around the corner, they won't stop. And it's even more complicated than that, but the point here is to keep it simple, if that makes any sense. We could talk for days about the complexities of it, but the point I'm trying to make is to keep it simple. There's a thousand limiting factors, but really it just comes down to that ratio. One thing I will say, though it doesn't effect the ratio, is that things are skewed slightly by this being a F2P game. In general T/E has to be higher than the reward because there is an option to just buy the reward, which pays the bills for the people who made the game. Your Part Now where do you come in? Well, I'm trying to figure out on average where the break in traction is. At what point do players look at something and not see it as worthwhile, what's the ratio? Unfortunately, every person is different and T/E and reward are concepts that are hard to quantify. Fortunately, that's sort of more or less what I do. So if you want to help, just copy and paste this survey into your reply somewhere. Code: ------[SURVEY]------ On a scale of 1-10 how much T/E (time and/or effort) would you say a single cert point (not counting passive gain) is worth? Do you have and use any XP boosts, if so, how much is the boost? On a scale of 1-10 how much T/E would you say an hour of normal play represents? Imagine the perfect gun for you, how many certs would you be willing to pay for it? What is the highest cert price you're willing to pay for anything in-game currently? On average, how many hours a day do you play? Have you ever bought anything with station cash, if so, how much station cash have you spent? How much of your station cash do you usually spend on station cash only things (like camo) versus things that can be bought with certs (like guns)? Do you prefer instant gratification or longterm reward? On a scale of 1-10 how much T/E is getting a permanent +1% health boost worth? To you, what is 1 on the 1-10 T/E scale? To you, what is 10 on the 1-10 T/E scale? To you, on a scale of 1-10, describe what a 1 reward would be using in-game terms and examples? To you, on a scale of 1-10, describe what a 10 reward would be using in-game terms and examples? On a scale of 1-10 how satisfied are you with the T/E vs. Reward ratio in this game? What would you say the T/E:Reward ratio is currently? (ex. 4:3) -------------------- ConclusionThank you very much for taking part in the survey if you did. As soon as I start getting results, I'll post what the general trends seem to be. If you have any questions, feel free to ask them and I'll do my best to answer them.
Talking about time/effort... on a scale from negative infinity to potato, how likely do you think it is that gamers will take the time to fill out this survey, seeing how there are loads of questions, many of them are not being explained thorougly and there's no reward for ones time except the gratification of having given ones opinion in a random survey? Now, I don't want to say this survey is useless, in fact, I'd be quite interested in the answers myself, but I also think, given the group of people asked are gamers, a more interactive form would be more suitable. Could you please put this up on a survey site and link it?
On a scale of 1-10 how much T/E (time and/or effort) would you say a single cert point (not counting passive gain) is worth? 1 Do you have and use any XP boosts, if so, how much is the boost? I use 50% exp boosts from time to time, usually the seven day one. On a scale of 1-10 how much T/E would you say an hour of normal play represents? 2, not much one can achieve in such a time-frame outside of a Zeypher gunner. Imagine the perfect gun for you, how many certs would you be willing to pay for it? 500 What is the highest cert price you're willing to pay for anything in-game currently? 500 On average, how many hours a day do you play? 3~1/2 Have you ever bought anything with station cash, if so, how much station cash have you spent? Yes, probably around $80's worth altogeather How much of your station cash do you usually spend on station cash only things (like camo) versus things that can be bought with certs (like guns)? Very little, I'd prefer not having to grind forever for a vital piece of equipment like a burster max arm. Do you prefer instant gratification or longterm reward? Solid middle ground On a scale of 1-10 how much T/E is getting a permanent +1% health boost worth? 1, the scale of of the game and the amount of opponents makes that small of a boost useless. To you, what is 1 on the 1-10 T/E scale? Ghost capping To you, what is 10 on the 1-10 T/E scale? Successfully halting then repelling and routing an assault by two other empires in a joint assault against yours. To you, on a scale of 1-10, describe what a 1 reward would be using in-game terms and examples? four diddly certs for a Biolab cap To you, on a scale of 1-10, describe what a 10 reward would be using in-game terms and examples? a massive four hour long war of attrition with plenty of cert gain via prolonged gunfights and all the support actions that go with. On a scale of 1-10 how satisfied are you with the T/E vs. Reward ratio in this game? 3, its quite off. What would you say the T/E:Reward ratio is currently? (ex. 4:3) 8:2 yeah I was bored.
You have a good point. I'll see if I can make some interactive form for this. Also would you mind telling me which ones aren't explained thoroughly? However, if there's anything I've learned, it's that giving one's opinion is plenty reward for many people.
If any of the weapons etc. seemed like upgrades and 80% of the attachments were not completely useless this would be ok. Grinding is what keeps games alive...Game with levels skills etc, and no grind are pretty stupid IMO. Mideaswell just start people at the level cap with full access to everything
Interactive Form I'm hoping people see this considering I can't edit the original post. Anyways. Here's an interactive form you can fill out instead. I'd prefer if people used this, but replies to the thread will still work, it just means more work for me. LINK
I used your interactive form. I just wanted to say that as a F2P player (I have spent money on cosmetics) that double xp has improved my experience and made me feel that my time was being rewarded more justly. I'd also like to say that I feel the cert system and unlocking the weapons are part of the RPG progression of this game and that spending money to unlock a gun is cheating the system, even if it does require a ridiculous amount of time to unlock via certs. I enjoy long term rewards more then instant gratification, to me it feels more rewarding. Make the grind too long though (like the 1000 cert weapons) and it no longer feels rewarding.
