Two Small Changes for Aircraft, Please

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by MidnightWyvern, Mar 12, 2020.

  1. MidnightWyvern

    It would be really great if we could get two things for aircraft:

    A. A separate X and Y sensitivity slider for joysticks. Pitch response is nice and crisp but roll is extremely slow, and you can't adjust one without adjusting the other.

    B. Being able to Yaw with the mouse and roll with A and D. That would make it much easier to fly and aim accurately with a mouse.
    • Up x 5
  2. Demigan

    I heard the rumor (never saw proof) that they had designed the mouse control system you suggested, but didnt release it because they wanted to see how the air-game evolved with those controls.
    The air-game emptied more and more as newbies just didnt give enough of a fk to learn (not excluding the half-dozen other reasons they dont join the air-game), yet they didnt release it for, and this became a staple of the air-game, the veterans didnt like it if newbies got a chance against them so they asked for it not to be added.
    Later on they got things like the Coyote's, designed to help newbies get a better sense of how to engage others, and got it changed so it became extra DPS for the veterans instead. Worse still was engagement radar, designed to support newbies in their early game to locate veterans, and then the veterans complained and made it "better for newbies" by making it not take a slot so that veterans were protected by stealth and the newbies are easily identified and hunted down by the very system supposed to help them.

    Anyone else sensing a pattern here?
    • Up x 7
  3. MidnightWyvern

    That sounds about right, similar to how there were so many guns that sucked because too many people used them and they nerfed their damage based solely on usage statistics, rather than thinking that probably meant they should make other guns as good as those.
    • Up x 4
  4. iller

    I actually worry that allowing it for Joystick just makes an already pay to win problem (resource boosts, PC specs, VPN service & packet Manip) even worse.

    ...not that really dedicated Modders haven't already figured out ways to force it to work ...there's probably even an Autohotkey solution floating around out there in the ether and the Devs don't care because making this game anything BESIDES super Client-Side is too much work for them
  5. Gooyoung

    yep totally no problem, how else can vets farm with KD >10 while pulling ESF constantly? They need to aurax the nosegun somehow you know?

    Giving mouse yaw OPTION will mean that newbie can actually aim at your aircraft while engaging in non weird hover mode angle or reverse maneuver and it enable them to shoot the vets when they are coming at the vets from the sides. Definitely not something acceptable right? We all learned so hard to do those reverse maneuver and super hard aim method so we totally deserve to farm them nonstop without them noobs having chance to shoot back at us unless they learn to fly.

    I mean hey definitely noobs can practice shooting by constantly dying within 3 second of engagement with pros for like, the first 50 hours of flying
    • Up x 5
  6. TRspy007

    Yeah even as a veteran i never bother to fly. Just to get to one base if I have the resources (that is, if i don't get obliterated by some tryhard pilot on the way there).
    • Up x 2
  7. Johannes Kaiser

    Same here. I play since 2012, could count the hours I've spend in anything airborne other than transports on one hand, most likely. The occasional foray every few months, followed by the inevitable "argh, yeah, that's why I never bother".
    • Up x 5
  8. hansgrosse

    Above all else I would love for proper joystick support to be added to this game. I actually started playing PS2 specifically to fly, but the control scheme turned me off immediately and I decided to dedicate myself to the ground game instead.

    If RPG ever decides to well and truly implement Joystick support I'd take to the air again immediately! Of course I'm not going to hold my breath, but one can dream.
  9. TR5L4Y3R

    controls for air need ability to bind yaw to mouse
    additional movemeant for strafing or banking
    better sensitivity settings/options for keyboard or controller imputs ..
    ESF secondary weapons need to be ballanced for air 2 air fights .. coyotes are a utter joke
    lock ons do too little damage for the ammount of time they require before a lock, hornets also do too little damage for how difficult they are to aim at libs ...
    • Up x 1
  10. Daikar

    This change wouldn't make a difference without also massively increasing the yaw speed, witch in turn would make having yaw on A/D a big problem. With how slow yaw is compared to pitch it would be equally hard to aim. This change only works if pitch and yaw has the same speed, just like roll and pitch does now.
    And honestly having yaw on the mouse doesn't make sense, instead of thinking about how you normally use a mouse just imagine you are holding a joystick.
  11. TR5L4Y3R

    i don´t care about it making sense, i care about it being configureable so i can play with it ..
    curent limited configureability causes me wristpain because of oversteering ..
    other games allow me to yaw with the mouse, so this game should too, i don´t even care if yaw is slower than pitching
    i am just not comfortable with roll and pitch on the mouse .. i can put yaw and pitch on the same stick of a controller no problem ..
    the issue here however is the lack of sensibilityconfiguration which leads to said oversteering which leads to said wristpain when using mouse and keyboard for a good period of time ..
  12. Nakor

    I've played in games with VTOL craft similar to the ESFs in PS2 and it is some incredibly fun game play when done correctly. Mechwarrior: Living Legends mod for Crysis does this right, Pitch and Yaw are mapped to Mouse Y and X respectively, roll is on the keyboard and forward thrust is actually vertical lift until you hit the shift modifier which propels you forward like an aircraft. It's highly maneuverable, intuitive but with a high skill ceiling and it's just a blast to play imo.

    Unfortunately I don't think that setup would work well for PS2 because of an issue related to the first point in OP's post. The yaw speed for aircraft in this game is REALLY slow and when you map yaw to the X axis on a controller it really shows. Honestly yaw on the X-axis sucks and is obnoxious to use in this game.

    So we get a non-intuitive flight model with a big skill ceiling in an environment that HEAVILY punishes failure -nanite costs, inability to progress against a massive time/cert sink- and nobody wants to fool with it except a minority of people who vocally oppose changes that would take away their monopoly on upper tier game play. The same people that like to travel in packs gang wrecking any lone plane -noobs- almost as soon as it exits the warp gate. Woo, fun.
  13. Daikar

    I'm trying to understand what you mean by oversteering and what exactly is causing wristpains? You would be moving your mouse ALOT more with yaw on the mouse. What mouse are you using? I know that when I had a razer naga you could set X/Y sense to different settings. I have roll on Q/E and pitch on the thumb buttons, that helps a lot when you have to pitch or roll for a longer time.
  14. Demigan

    Not only is yaw+pitch on the mouse more comfortable, it allows you to do more movement and more precisely.
    If you combine pitch and yaw and move the mouse at a 3 degree angle from a straight pitch, it'll move the nose at a 3 degree angle.

    With the current system pitch can be measured based on the mouse movement, but yaw is completely keyboard based. This separates the pitch and yaw movements and makes it harder to combine movement directions and get the desired result. Why is this system there? There's no reason for it. It is quite literally the worst combination of steering controls you could imagine. The only way you can make it worse is by purposefully making worse controls like putting yaw on the Z and B keys while roll is mouse controlled. I dont know why this system was ever invented, but whoever did never ever put any thought into it.

    Unfortunately the devs have made it blindingly clear with Engagement Radar that they do not intent to fix the air-game in any way. It is a system designed to help newbies but was changed based on veteran feedback to become the best way of identifying and subsequently griefing newbies while not doing the role its supposed to do for the newbies (give them a view of veteran movement to help them learn the game). The solution to this is exceedingly easy: make Engagement radar take the same slot as Stealth. As long as this is never fixed we get the powerful message: PS2 devs will listen and support the griefing fktwad crowd. I mean air elites. Until then we will never see any improvement to the air-game (latest example: Bastion Carriers!).
    • Up x 1
  15. Daikar

    This isn't true. Yaw isn't used for movement and isn't needed at all to do precise movements, what is important is roll and pitch since that's what you need to have precise in order to fly. So having roll on the mouse is the best option if you want the most precise movement. Many maneuvers you can do today would be impossible without roll on the mouse.
    And as I have said before having yaw on the mouse wouldn't work unless you also increase the speed of yaw to match that of pitch. And doing so would break the controls for ppl having yaw on the keyboard.

    Just because you don't understand the system doesn't make it bad, probably every plane in existence works like this, pull the joystick right and you roll right. The mouse just mimics a joystick. The only reason you want yaw on the mouse is because its the standard way arcade flying games does it and you are used to it.

    If I remember correctly the "griefing fktwad crowd" was heavily against implementing the radar as a default ability with the reason being it would give new pilots a false sense of security and not teach them the importance of being aware of your surroundings.
    For the air elites it barely changed anything since we already had very good awareness of what was around us and used freelook frequently to look around. But it did make stealth almost mandatory if you wanted to get a jump on someone.

    Just take a few hours and learn to fly, its not ******* hard. It's like learning to ride a bike tbh and if you can do that you can learn to fly.
  16. Demigan

    Just what are you smoking? Lets put it in terms you understand.

    Lets say my target is 10 pixels to the left, 10 pixels upwards.

    With full mouse control on pitch and yaw you can make a 45 degree angle with your mouse and move there at any speed you like (within the maximum turn ratio's)

    With the yaw on A and D you have set speeds for Yaw. Lets say A and D moves your cursor at 10 pixels per second. This means that I can get my cursor there in 1 second by applying the same speed of 10 pixels per second with the mouse. However if I want to move there slower (lets say for accuracies sake) I cannot change how fast I turn to the target as I HAVE to move 10 pixels per second (on average) on both directions for the 45 degree angle.

    Worse still is if the target isnt at a 45 degree angle. If the target is 2 pixels left and 10 pixels upwards I just move at a low angle to the left and at the speed I like upwards if it is full mouse control.
    If I use A and D for yaw I need to move the mouse upwards with 50 pixels per second to smoothly get the crosshair to the target, which is likely impossible with the maximum turn limitations, or I have to hold the A button for 0.2 seconds and then pitch up (now I'm using imaginary numbers for this example. In reality a 10 pixel difference would require tapping the keyboard for much less time). Unfortunately you are an aircraft and moving, so the amount of pixels change as you move closer to your opponent. What doesnt change is the angle between the crosshair and the target, but ONLY if you move in a direct angle there! So distance, speed and the maximum yaw ratio are now constantly changing the amount of movements and keypresses you need to get to your target.

    But what about roll? How important is it that you get the angle EXACTLY right with small movements? not very, if you are a few degrees off you can still make it work well, and you'll rarely need to move a tiny bit, you mostly use roll to get yourself sideways for example, hardly something that needs fine mousecontrol and more something that needs a button that just gives you the maximum turn ratio until you reach it.

    There, math and logic say you are wrong, can you do better?

    Joystick and mouse are completely different things, especially when we add the fact that you need a keyboard for these maneuvers as well.

    And I do understand the system, and I understand it better than you. But lets for a moment say that you are right and your system is better for the average flyboy... what is wrong with adding a choice between your system and mine? It would allow more players to join the air-game, that is good right?
    But you resist it. Why would you? Well there can be only one reason: you dont WANT other people to be able to fly.

    You remember wrong. What actually happened was that someone announced a change in favor of newbies, for example a new controlscheme or a radar that would give a sense of DANGER as newbies would be able to DETECT the opposition and know they are coming (seriously if you detect enemies how would that INCREASE your sense of security? Are you really that daft?). Then to try and stop this the griefing fktwad crowd started complaining how this would be oh so bad for them poor newbies that they were just trying to protect (ahem). But some of them proposed alternatives like making it a free slot.

    Also even if you do remember it right, since the engagement radar has been added in its broken murder-newbies-faster state those same griefing fktwad crowd have actively opposed any change to it like making it take a slot, "because it would be worse for the newbies". Seeing the pattern here?

    Actually demonstrably false. If engagement radar wasnt useful for veterans THERE IS NO REASON TO USE STEALTH. Yet everyone is using stealth instead of the things they used to put in that slot because the engagement radar IS useful for griefing fktwads.
    The fact that this is true is easily tested. Go online right now and fight some griefing fktwads, you'll notice that newbies dont have stealth and 95% of the griefing fktwads do use stealth.

    But you are side-stepping the issue here. Its not about what changed for the griefing fktwad crowd, its what changed for the newbies. Newbies did not get any of the benefits that engagement was supposed to give them and actually started advertising their newby status, which gets them killed faster.

    I did take a few hours to learn how to fly. But the fact that you need a few hours to learn it in the first place is a big problem in the first place.
    • Up x 3
  17. Daikar

    No you can't because the maximum yaw rate is so much lower then the max pitch rate.

    The set speed of A/D is the max turn rate of yaw, it would take the same time with the mouse as it does currently. And I don't really see when you would need to go slower then the current speed since it's already so slow. Also you shouldn't really use yaw for more then tiny adjustments, you should align your plane with roll and use pitch to target your enemy.

    Again, align your ship with roll so that you have a straight line to the target with pitch, do that and you won't need to rely so heavily on yaw.

    You would need to lower the max roll rate if you had them on the keyboard, there is no way I would be able to fly the way I do without the precise control I have with roll on the mouse. I mean just try flying through the bridge at impact site on indar while having the ESF perfectly level.

    The thing is that if hover mode wasn't a thing I would agree with you. Having yaw on the mouse makes sense if all you are doing is flying forwards. But as soon as you enter hover mode you use roll and pitch to control where you want to fly. With roll on the keyboard it would be much harder to fly in hover mode, and that's where most fights takes place anyway.

    Yes but I'm just saying that the mouse mimics how a joystick works in a plane, having that in mind can make it easier to use the current controls.

    I'm not against adding it as a choice, I'm just saying it wont help you against the pro pilots. as soon as the pro enters hover mode you are ****** since you no longer have precise control over hover mode without roll on the mouse.
    The notion that I don't want other ppl to be able to fly is ridiculous if you actually knew me ingame, I've spent over 300 hours trying to teach new pilots to fly and almost always try to help players that I can see are having a hard time flying.

    I'm not daft but maybe we have different ideas of what a sense of security is. If I play a game and everything around me is automatically spotted on my HUD that gives me a sense of security because I know where everyone is. I don't have to constantly look around for potential enemies since the game does that for me.
    Engagement radar is bad for new pilots because it doesn't help them learn anything, it just does the job for them and when a pilot with stealth comes along they are ****** because they never learned the skills they needed to spot other pilots.
    It's the same thing with lockons, it teaches you to stay still and while looking at your target. This will get you completely destroyed when facing someone that can aim with the nosegun.

    You're seeing a pattern because you want to be the victim. And I stand by my argument on why engagement radar is bad for new pilots. Having it be a slot wouldn't really hurt pro pilots because as I said we already know how to read the map and use freelook in the cockpit. The power dynamic would stay the same, new pilots would run radar because to them that option feels like the most powerful one and pros would run stealth because we know that's the best option.

    Ofcourse it's useful but its not necessary and I wouldn't care if they changed or removed it, it wouldn't effect my performance in the air one bit. Stealth was useful even before engagement radar was a thing but the downside was that you had to land to repair more often. But now engis provide the same benefit as nanite auto repair does and that made stealth the only real option. Why new pilots don't all use stealth I don't understand, maybe because the want to fly as LA to increase their KD

    Yes I agree and so does many other pro pilots, and we said so when they wanted to implement it but nobody listened.

    This is the problem with many gamers today, you want instant gratification and if you don't get it you start to complain about the game being to hard. Go play another game that holds your hand and has a line in the ground for you to follow so you don't have to use your brain. Learning a new skill isn't something that you can just do instantly, if you've never used a PC before you wouldn't expect to just start CSGO and start headshooting ppl right at the start. Flying is the same, its a control scheme you aren't used to so your brain will take longer to develop the muscle memory needed to use the controls. I know you believe that having yaw on the mouse would somehow make you a better pilot but it won't but I'm not against adding it as an option.
  18. Demigan

    But I dont have to use the maximum pitch rate all the time, and the reason the yaw rate is limited could be specifically BECAUSE it is keyboard-based rather than mouse-based. after all the only game that has such differences between pitch and yaw just so happens to be the game that has yaw and pitch separated.

    This is backwards. You dont realize that you use the roll because the yaw is limited, and the yaw is limited because they put it on the keyboard instead of the mouse?

    And why wouldnt I be allowed to do both roll and yaw simultaneously to get my aim on-target, but with a controlscheme that I like?
    Everything you say is based on "but I think it is limited", but you give zero reasons not to add this choice in the first place.

    Or give me the controls I want, as I am capable of using Yaw and Roll simultaneously and reach my goal with more accuracy and speed, which is much harder with the current controls.

    You mean you have to lower the Max roll if its on the keyboard... Just like they did with yaw? I mean you seriously miss that connection?
    Also I prefer to fly an ESF through a bridge when its level, which would be much easier if yaw and pitch are on the mouse and I dont need to add roll for quick turns.

    And no I wouldnt lower the max roll rate if it were relocated to the keyboard as I wouldnt have a problem flying like that. You do for some reason. But again: why shouldnt I have the choice to fly as I want just because YOU would suck if you picked that option? And again, you wouldnt need to pick that option?

    Why would it be harder in hovermode? How? Just fly like its a helicopter that uses a throttle instead of physics to go forwards!

    Or how about we add the actual controlscheme that most peopel are familiar with, and keep the current one as an option? Even better: allow players to modify the controlschemes completely to their liking. Why should I try to imagine using a joystick when I'm using a mouse if I could just get actual mouse-controls? And even better: I could get mouse controls while you keep the system you prefer.
    What. Is. Wrong. with. That?

    I would have an order of magnitude more control with full mousecontrol at any point in time when I have actual controls designed for the mouse than a joystick derivative. Dont assume that just because you fail at such controls that everyone fails at such controls.

    Current engagement radar is the highway to learning situational awareness because the first enemy they come across isnt a newb without stealth, its going to be a griefer who uses stealth and murders them. I dont understand why you would use the current broken system as proof that it wouldnt work for newbies. Its like sayinfg "we tried square wheels and they failed so if we added the original round wheel idea it fails too".

    Even if engagement worked and showed veterans it wouldnt give a sense of security. A veteran might feel secure, a newby will know he has less experience and is up against someone who likely does have experience. Worse still is that they'll quickly know they are under attack. Anyone here saying "well I'm getting shot at now I feel safe?" Ofcourse not! In fact the opposite is true: if you cant see your enemies as a newby you'll have a false sense of security as you dont know that there might be a threat. This means any time they engage something they will not know if they are exposing themselves to someone else, which would be the case if engagement did its job.

    So theres no point where engagement radar would make newbies feel safe or use less skill/precautions, while a newby who does not yet know how to look around does feel safe and not use some skills and precautions. And if engagement radar shows an enemy the newby will instantly try to spot where that enemy is, teaching him to protect himself and how to see whetr an enemy goes or what he does to keep them in view.

    Why would I want to be a victim? Why would I want to make others a victim by telling you what can be observed in the game?

    And no I'm not trying to hurt veterans by making engagement take a slot, I'm making veterans pick between engagement and stealth so that they are either just as visible to newbies or they are more stealthy but lose the ability to easily hunt newbies. What is wrong with that?

    And again: if griefing fktwads are so good at situational awareness, WHY is stealth used by 95% of the veterans then? They dont need it against the newbies right? They would only need it against other veterans.

    Also if you made stealth and engagement radar available simultaneously to newbies and gave them the choice I can guarantee you that almost every single one would choose stealth. Why pick engagement if it just gets cancelled by people who pick stealth anyway and doesnt provide anything against other targets when stealth does?
    We actually see the truth of that in-game. Newbies who try to stick with the air-game cert into stealth as one of their first options. But they always have engagement radar as its just auto-granted so they cant make that choice. But why would they all pick engagement radar if given the choice? There is no indication for that, yet you say its true because... you simply want to feel justified in supposed superiority?

    Newbies dont because it doesnt come auto-granted, but it is the first thing newbies cert into. Dont bad-mouth newbies because they dont get the choice options you had the time to cert into.

    Wait, you are saying that the very "pro pilots" that actually proposed and protected this current system (like you do now) are actually the poor people who werent listened too? You realize that people like you have ruined the air-game further and further by proposing the changes that got engagement radar in its current iteration in the first place? Or every time a change was made that made it easier for newbies it was changed again a month or two later based on the "pro pilots" suggestions and subsequently the newbies that joined the air-game tanked like all hell because it only benefitted the "pro pilots"?
    Why do you think I prefer the term "griefing fktwads"? Its because that is exactly what they are. Self-serving and everything that isnt exactly the way they play is wrong. For example a new controlscheme that other games also have.

    This is the problem with today. When you dont want to actually have a decent discussion you blame the other side. I wouldnt be surprised if I've been playing games that are harder on higher difficulties for longer than you have yet you try to say I'm a millenial and that all millenials are quick-gratification people. Well newsflash people: games like COD existed in the old days and started this trend, so WE, the generation that came before, is at fault for starting and continuing this trend. Blaming the milennials for our mistakes and saying we did it so much better is hypocracy of the highest order, and the people who actually believe it have to be some of the dumbest people living today.

    The best and greatest systems ever have one thing in common: easy to learn, hard to master. Trying to proclaim "instant gratification!" Is stupid. Not only is it ludicrous to force people into several hours of learning one aspect of the game, NO OTHER PART OF THE GAME REQUIRES THIS. This isnt a milsim, this is PS2, an MMOFPS arcadey shooter with under the hood one of the most deep and interesting shooting mechanics. Ofcourse that deep abd interesting part of the game is ruined by all generations who want instant gratification in the form of OHK snipers instead of the skill of sneakig, mind-games, COF control, recoil control and scoring multiple hits on the same targets instead of just a single one.

    Hypicracy at its finest ofcourse. Claiming to be against instant gratification but OHK sniping is usually seen as the most important.

    Funny, the current controls for the air-game encourage limiting your skillset to hover combat and nothing else. Yet here you are saying I want my hand held? I've been asking for an expanded air-game where players can be masters of multiple skillsets instead of one-trick-pony gameplay with an inverted skillcurve compared to what everything else has (more power reward the more skill you get instead of less power reward the more skill you get. And if you misinterpret that sentence you should get your brain checked).

    Now I know for a fact that the current PS2 controls are worse than the controls I propose, partly because I've actually studied and did jobs at finding things that are needlessly complicated and making things more accessible (with physical environments to be sure, like the cockpit of an electrical racekart, but that is more complicated that gameplay controlschemes). I also know this because that controlscheme is already used for other games, it works well and forcing players to learn new skillsets is dumb. Sure you could invert the mouse controls for everyone and people would adapt, but why would you do that if people are likely to have developed skills with the normal and more intuitive controlscheme? Dont reinvent the wheel if all it does is create a worse type of wheel and people have to learn how to use it all over again.
    • Up x 2
  19. Johannes Kaiser

    I think the TL;DR here is: Moving crosshairs by keyboard is inaccurare and annoying.
    I agree with that statement.
  20. Daikar

    I can't be bothered replying to you anymore, if you wanna talk more we can do it on discord or TS since typing is a bad way to really convey what you mean, its easy to misunderstand.