[Suggestion] TR Pounder max, changes and thoughts on weapon diversity

Discussion in 'MAX' started by Naithe, Sep 10, 2013.

  1. Naithe

    As anyone who's ever tried all faction max'es AV properly knows by now. The pounder sucks bad currently.
    So I've been thinking how could the pounders be changed to improve them without making them pretty much become the fractures.

    But before i go into the changes I propose, let me first explain how I view AV weapons within the same category diversified (if thats the right word). If you don't care about this feel free to jump to the "Proposed changes" below.


    Thoughts on weapon diversity and how to keep it
    I belive what I'm donna say is something pretty much every player who's accessed atleast a certain number of weapons, or played similar fps'es before, already knows, even if i is at a point where they never where conscious about it.

    I like to personally put weapons that perform similar overall roles(like AV in this case)in 2 categories.

    Short range
    • low exposure to return fire
    • burst damage
    • able to utilise cover peek-a-boo style
    Long range
    • High reliability in regards to getting shots on target
    • good sustained dps
    • High exposure to return fire.
    The above doesn't encompass everything ofcourse, and as some would notice something like high exposure isn't as much a needed characteristic as much as a weakness. The reason I included it is I believe it is a required weakness needed for long range weapons, so that they won't overall outclass short range variants. and also to make sure those on the recieving end have a chance to respond.

    Now if you use the above characteristics to design your weapon, then I belive you will manage to maintain diversity, without relying too much on gimicks.


    Proposed changes
    Now with that covered, lets get back on topic.

    TR already have the fracture, and as you might have noticed, it fits really well with the notion of long range av, as it has all 3 of the mentioned characteristics.
    So obviously I'd personally suggest making the Pounder a shortrange av, but before going into that here are the live stats of the pounder.

    M3 Pounder HEG (live):
    Damage per magazine: 3400 (425*8, I'm assuming dual pounders here ofcourse.)
    RPM = 80 RPM = 3s to empty a clip!!! (80RPM / 60s = 1,333 RPS // 4shot magazine / 1,333 RPS = 3seconds till empty)
    Reload = 2s
    grenade velocity = 100m/s

    As you can see the current pounder has extremely high exposure, 3 seconds of firing where you can get shot back in, and a 2s reload, which hardly makes it worth going for cover between shots.

    This generally means using it pretty much requires you to shoot someone who is for whatever reason ignoring you, or unable to shoot back, also since the 3400 damage per clip is spread out over 3 seconds it can hardly be called burst either.

    What I suggest is simple increase the fire rate considerably, so it instead becomes burst damage, and reduce the reload speed accordingly to balance out the over all dps. I imagine the stats to be something along these lines:

    M3 Pounder HEG (proposed change):
    Damage per magazine: 3400 (unchanged)
    RPM = 480 RPM = 0,5s to empty a clip (480RPM / 60s = 8 RPS // 4shot magazine / 8 RPS = 0,5seconds till empty)
    Reload = 4,5s
    grenade velocity = 100m/s

    As you can see this is a minor change, the pounder becomes able to do burst damage, with a long reload to compensate.

    This will allow max users to use cover peek-a-boo style in close quarters. And to make sure that people don't end up wasting ammo, when they are trying to gauge drop, a simple switch between semi-automatic to full automatic should fix that.


    Final thoughts and concerns
    I do have some concerns about these changes. Forexample these changes would mean a pounder max at close range could peek out, take a third of a tanks health when shooting it in the side. (or over half in the rear), return to cover and repeat.
    However at the same time, this is the kind of AV dps maxes generally have, so maybe my worries are unfounded.

    Infact preferebly I'd like to see the pounder got a reload time of 5.7s or so like the decimator has, but then we'd talk either even higher burst, or dps that is worse then all other AV maxes.

    Anyways, what are your guys thoughts? Did I mess up my math somewhere? or maybe you disagree with my entire idea about how to keep weapons diverse?
    • Up x 4
  2. P4NJ

    I kinda like the idea but but the main problem with the pounder is the convergence. It'd be a pretty decent weapon if convergence (and maybe bullet velocity) didn't make it pretty much impossible to hit anything beyond a certain range and it makes hitting infantry a massive pain (I gotta adjust for drop AND convergence).

    3400 damage over 0.5s would just be asking for whine, even if it wouldn't be overpowered...
    • Up x 1
  3. Pikachu

    That last part is a good point.

    It's hard to make it useful and differentiate it from fracture. The only 2 things that comes to my mind would be to add proper splash damage and give it 2 fire modes with different drop. First one with less drop than it currently has, maybe 1/2, the second even more than current like 1/2 more.

    Another option could be to allow it to fire bursts of 2 with a wide spread so it can't kill infantry too good. The DPS would be higher than normal and it's meant for close range vehicle attack.
    • Up x 1
  4. Ganjis

    I would also change the tracers to glow pretty red like the Striker and Fracture. This would allow enemies to backtrack the source easier to counter the high burst damage (lest it become too powerful and sneaky at once). However, it would help the user at medium range find their elevation easier. I find the only reliable way of finding elevation on the pounder is to stand and wait to see the explosion and adjust, which is obviously a bad way of doing things. A more visible projectile would allow you to predict much earlier where it was going to land (going off experience with magrider cannon).

    The pounder really is a ball-ache to use. Compare it to the comet (same price bracket) and it is just woeful. Compare it to the Fracture (faction alternative at 8X cert cost) and it is like comparing a throwing rocks at somebody to firing a longbow at them. Every time I think the Fracture is OP, I remind myself of the pounder (I have a dual-pounder MAX loadout on an alt to remind me and because I am perverse).
  5. Naithe


    Just to be sure keep in mind, that is before armor is put into the calculation. (resistances don't matter since MBT/lightning has 0% resist towards pounders damage type).

    But yeah it is still about a third of a tanks health in the side.

    Another way could be to lower the damage per shell, and lower the reload timer. this way the burst ability won't be as high, and its peek-a-boo ability will be weakened, but still there. And this without affecting sustained dps too much. (Not to say the damage can't be nerfed, but I'd like to keep it in the same levels as the other max av.)

    Those are good idea's. But yeah, splash damage is a really dangerous thing to add.

    Personally the biggest issue with the pounders is simply just the exposure they require. sitting in the open for 3 seconds, while having heavy drop and slow projectile speed, seems to be a real killer.

    People can get used to drop etc. but unless pounders are changed to be as long range as fractures. I just don't see them working without some sort of boost in survivability.
  6. Pikachu

    Full tracef effect isnt something I would like to see. I think the lack of glow for pounder and old fal on was a big part of them. However I know the problem of not know where they are flying, try shooting them at night time. Instead we could add a rear glow like tank shells have. That would be enough.
  7. Pikachu

    Btw Naithe you're forumside's pounder man and I'm forumside's falcon man. :D
  8. Furluge

    The problem with the Pounder has been ongoing from PS1. Back then it was originally AI and the Dual Cycler was AV.. then they decided that was dumb and flipped them... but the pounder still couldn't hit anything farther away than an 80 lbs when wet man can throw a MAX.

    So in this game it looks like they made it inherit all it's suck from PS1. It still can't hit anything far enough to matter, and you still can't fend off infantry with it. You'd think it might be good vs enemy maxes, but no, you still can't really hit them with it.

    I can't imagine how you can make it better than a fracture though because quite frankly the fracture does what you want in an AV weapon, it's got long range and it fires quickly per the TR trait. The only way I think you can make it different from the fracture is in the same way that the Lancer, Vortek, and Phoenix are different from the striker and that means something "special" that makes it stand out.

    So here's my hat into the ring for something that'll never happen: Make it a MIRV launcher. Make it something you lob way over things that sends out a lot of smaller grenades at the apex of it's arc. Low damage, easy to hit, something you can use to lay traps for harassers or area denial for tanks. It fits the TR theme of lots of projectiles, and it's not /another/ weapon that shoots out a ton of rockets. Plus it's something that benefits most from a coordinated effort, which is another TR trait.
    • Up x 1
  9. HooWoo

    Ayy

    I love my pounders :'(
  10. Anvildude

    mmm... Mirv pounders...
  11. Takoita

    I give the thumbs up, but add that there is something needs to be done about spotty hit detection, horrible projectile arc and the smoke trails that blind the user as well.

    Or make it an AI grenade launcher and be done with it.
  12. Metalsheep

    They flipped the DC and Pounder MAXs in PS1 because the pounder was hilariously overpowered as an AI MAX, it lobbed miniture nuclear warheads that wiped whole groups of infantry. Not to mention its secondary timed grenades and lockdown. And the DC was woefully bad at being an AV weapon. The 'Dual Tickler" is what they called it. Most people used it as AI anyways over the Pounder due to its lack of arc.

    But once the roles were flipped, the Pounder was amazing at being AV, easily the best AV MAX in PS1 (in lockdown mode), especially after they added OverDrive too, it would always beat an enemy MAX in overdrive mode. The Pounders range was a tad short compared to the straight firing Falcon and Comet, but if you knew how to compensate for the arc, it could outrange the other two MAXs. Was very effective for shelling Turrets, entrenched soldiers and other stationary targets at really long range. And not to mention a lockdown Pounder absolutely wrecked BFRs.

    The Falcon and Comet were definately more user-friendly, however.

    OT: The only thing i think the Pounder really needs is a shorter reload and maybe 1 more in the clip. to 5 rounds each. besides the obvious convergeance fix. I love using my pounders. The pounders are also pretty effective with lockdown, if you can position in a good spot.

    A faster base firing speed would mean Lockdown firing speed would also be increased, potentially making Pounders too powerful with lockdown mode.
  13. CrashB111

    Honestly at this point all I can see them doing to make the Pounders worth using is just repurposing them to be an AI weapon like a mini Fury or Marauder.

    The Fractures are just straight up better at AV duty since they have vastly superior range, no convergence problems, better velocity and about the same damage.
  14. llPendragon



    I think the Pounders suck. Even then, I think this is waaaaaaaaaaay in the other direction.
    The Pounders are pretty competitive by their stats. The problem is that they sucked to use before, and now they have to compete with the easiest to use and arguably the best all-around AV weapons (Fractures). IMHO, the Pounders shouldn't be buffed/changed until the Fractures are updated to have a more specific and situational role.


    ^This. The Fractures are the best AV MAX weapons in the game. The Pounders can't, and shouldn't, be able to compete against them.



    If we wanted to suppose that we could compare the Pounder to the Falcon/Raven/Comet/Lancer weapons, without bringing the Fractures into the discussion, then I would suggest three changes:
    1. Lower the arc and increase the projectile velocity.
    2. Increase the reload time.
    3. Make them semi-automatic.
  15. Mxiter

    Fix the convergence and maybe increase the ROF to 100RPM and i'll be fine.
    The reload nerf to 3 sec could be a fair tradeoff for higher ROF.
  16. Furluge

    I'm sorry but I'm going to have to disagree with everything you said about the pounder in PS1. After playing PS1 for years with my outfit and starting my run certing specifically into MAXes the pounder was horrible, and Lockdown was especially horrible for the pounder because anyplace you could lockdown with a pounder and hit a vehicle you were either roadkill or decimator bait.

    Thank god we have fractures now and never have to use the Pounder again though.
  17. Naithe


    First and foremost I'm fairly sure last I checked Fractures are about as effective as Vortex. The bigger deciding matter last I checked was fractures being too good against infantry.... (I do personally think that the falcon, and ravens of the NC has a huge identity crisis, trying to be something they aren't but thats for another thread. =P)

    Infact as you mention later on, my intention was never to compare them straigth up to the fractures. but to find ways to make them work, without making them essentially a "tweaked" Fracture.

    Also where does this go the other way? Is there a specific part of the changes you think is op or similar? while you might not like the suggestion I'd like to atleast know where you think its op, so I know if I should change my mind a bit or if we might be talking past eachtoher.

    Those suggestions would deffinately help. But honestly I don't see how that won't do exactly what I fear. And that is turn them into the fractures we have now, but with a smaller clip, and higher payload.

    I was hoping to keep them more diverse then this. The best idea I've had so far on this, is by making them more suited to one range over another.. (just like decimators vs lock on launchers for infantry).