[Suggestion] TR is in desperate need of a .75 ADS LMG...

Discussion in 'Heavy Assault' started by IberianHusky, Aug 6, 2014.

  1. ATRA_Wampa-One

    Because the Anchor proves that you don't need 0.75 to be an amazing LMG.

    What you need is high DPS, short magazine, SPA, and great accuracy, and that last one is where the MSR-W fails since it only has good accuracy.

    Like I said, a 125/857 LMG with say a 60 round magazine, good reload time, low recoil and it being the only LMG in the game with a stand/move COF of 0.3 would be the high daka version of the Anchor and be incredibly TR.
    • Up x 1
  2. nehylen

    Hi! It's true the available data looks bizarre indeed, the Orion (and arguably the MSW-R) is definitely worth better than what it shows. In the principle we could kind of explain it for the Orion (everyone drawn to it because it's OP or assumed to be, with most VS LMG arsenal being not great either way), but for the MSW-R?
    But that's about the only thing we have, so we're left speculating and debating. I don't know if SOE has access to any more data but i doesn't seem to reflect the quality of either gun.

    As for the heat mechanic and as far as i'm concerned i'd rather it went away (i own Darkstar and VE3A, but not the Betelgeuse), i have trouble seeing how it couldn't be either over or underpowered considering reload is an important element of balance.

    I suppose you meant the angular recoil of 17-20, since the 0.35 move+stand ADS CoF is an advantage over most LMGs. I absolutely disagree the FSM determines if a weapon is burst friendly or not, you're basically saying that in a multiplication with 2 operands only a single one is useful. it's the effective raw first shot recoil resulting of that multiplication which counts.
    If an hypothetical gun had 0.1 V.Recoil and a 5x FSM, it would still be a very stable gun to burst with. What really makes an impact here and the real handicap of that gun, from my perception, is a high 1st shot vertical recoil resulting in high bias which you effectively don't have on an Orion, even if the 1st shot recoil is a bit higher in absolute.

    Thing is, the sights level used is quite important in my experience combined to this when you effectively burst a lot. I've used the VS burst AR/carbine variants quite a bit, with HVA (0.66 recoil on 1st shot for the HVA'd AR, 0.77 on the carbine, 2.75 and 2.8 FSM for reference), and found myself much more accurate with 1x than in 2x where the first shot recoil feels much more brutal to compensate.

    Actually between the high 1st shot recoil, 17°/20° bias, lower than standard move+stand ADS CoF is rather different from TR weapons but very similar to how quite a few VS weapons behave (Solstice and Pulsar variants, Polaris) with some more RoF, so of course a tad tougher to deal with.

    Also i did nothing else in VR but test how the weapon behaves overall. Of course i know it doesn't tell the whole picture, but given what i stated above and my experience with some more erratic guns, i have zero doubts about how i could make it function, and it's definitely designed to behave differently than the Orion.

    What i agree with is that it's probably less viable without a grip than the Orion, due to it being less burst friendly with that big 1st shot bias, and the need to burst more if you don't have a foregrip. It's paradoxical considering their respective ADS profiles.

    Finally i don't understand why you and Kociboss feel that i'm downplaying the .75ads advantage. I do grasp its power, i've lost some face-offs because the guy had it, won some because the reverse was true, got sniped in peeking situations where .75ads might've saved me...but i just don't feel it makes or breaks a gun at all.
    As i said, i think it's unfair that the other empires don't get at least one LMG with .75ads, i'm all for it, if only because that topic wouldn't sprout so much. The same as i'd love to see the other VS LMGs more in line with the competition, so that maybe NC/TR wouldn't see and fixate on the Orion so much and this whole .75ads debate would die out entirely.
    It's just an advantage among others for me, i don't deem it that much of a threat in itself.

    To be entirely exhaustive, i believe that this whole .75ads debate is very probably due to how high the mouse sensitivity is for most players, and how any increase in movement, however slight, screws up their ADS.
    For indication, my mouse sensitivity is at 800dpi in Windows (and i don't bother changing it on the fly), and on PS2: .150 in ADS mode, 0.400 in hipfire, 0.120 scoped. I use 1x sights on anything auto except my loadouts for range (2x with Pulsar C or Corvus for instance).
  3. Reclaimer77

    How would having a .75 ADS LMG of your own help you kill that ADADADAD VS player? If your aim and skill isn't good enough now, it won't be improved by having an .75 of your own.

    Why do VS get things like .75 ADS weapons? Probably because the huge bulk of our weapons have the lowest damage per clip and kills per clip potential. So to be competitive, we have to rely on accuracy and mobility.

    So while you're "leveling the playing field", can I also have a 200 damage 100 round LMG? How about a 200 damage carbine? Or a Max that instantly gibs players? Can I trade the Lasher for something actually useful like a MCG?

    Basically what you're saying is remove the VS balancing, while giving us nothing in return.

    This is why I feel most calls for Magrider buffs are also misplaced. People want to buff this or that, but don't seem to understand that if it had the firepower of the Prowler with the survivability of the Vanguard, AND kept it's mobility and utility, it would be game breaking.

    Stop trying to vanilla this game and make all factions the same. .75 ADS is far from some overpowered thing anyway.
  4. ATRA_Wampa-One

    This is for another thread but I really don't want the Magrider to get more DPS or armor, just increase it's accuracy via less drop/more velocity and make it a bit more mobile with a longer or faster recharging magburn.

    The other thing that TR/NC don't understand about the Orion is that it's not that accurate. It use to be absolutely amazing but then the 0.75 ADS nerfs hit the Orion and SVA-88 hard so while you get mobility you give up accuracy and the TR already whine about how inaccurate their LMG's are so giving them another one even with 0.75 ADS would be dumb.
  5. pnkdth

    The other thing VS(or NC/TR) forumsiders does not understand is that there's some players who play all factions. I have no loyalty to faction or outfit anymore. Players like us tend to see straight through the forumside meta, and we know first-hand how awesome that 0.75x movement is on weapons such as the Orion/SVA-88. We do more than spend 10 minutes in VR before we pretend to have any understanding of other faction's weapons.

    There's always the same excuse "But the shield slows us down"(as if 0.5 aren't slowed down even more somehow?), awkward numbers gymnastics like we've seen so far in this thread, or personal anecdotes such as "Well, I prefer X weapon over the Orion"(like this revelation is going to change anyone's mind).

    Overall though, I do not think this would have been made such a big deal if it was any other class. It is just that HA is such a huge part of PS2 which puts LMGs in the spotlight, which naturally leads people to drool over the Orion and SVA.
    • Up x 1
  6. ATRA_Wampa-One

    Even though I only list my VS main, I have over 630 kills between the CARV, CARV-S, and MSR-W (I mostly play LA on TR and have over 1k kills with the Jag) while I have over 260 kills with the 167 NC weapons and that's not counting the few hundred I racked up on Server Smash. Yeah it's not like I've unlocked the Butcher or GODSAW but I've played more than a few days with them and know their mechanics well enough to comment on them and know that the TR need an accurate CQC gun way more than a 0.75 ADS one (which would be inaccurate) which is what the "TORQ" LMG that they're slated to get should be. Hell, even if it's a low 800 ROF/125 LMG which puts it's DPS along the same lines as the Anchor would be fine as long since if it's super accurate they'll quickly forget about the fact they don't have a 0.75 ADS LMG like the NC have once the Anchor was changed to what it is now.
  7. Reclaimer77

    Id'e take the current CARV or MSW-R over the Orion any day. I prefer TR, my main character was TR. I only switched to VS because on Emerald the Vanu have a much better community, better outfits that play to win and use tactics. The kiddie farm mentality of the NC, and AOD zerg of the TR, just completely turned me off from fighting for those factions.

    I don't play a ton of HA, but I've used the Orion a bit. It's far from the godly gun NC and TR whiners make it out to be. And if it was, that's certainly not because of the .75 ADS.

    Statistically speaking there's very little difference between the MSW-R and Orion. Claiming the TR are in desperate need is just hyperbole. They have a perfectly good Orion sister in the MSW-R, with better attachment options, and most TR seem too oblivious to even give the gun a chance.
  8. nehylen

    FYI, I did not spend 10 minutes in VR, it was more like 60~70mn actually switching between MSW-R and Orion to really get a feel of the difference, what i could do and what i shouldn't with either. Thing is i reached the same conclusion i did with those 60+ minutes of firing than i did in pure theorycraft.
    Games are numbers, if you know how they translate in effective practice on something it's pretty easy to determine what something else is supposed to do by the same rules. I've honed my theorycraft on pvp MMO's i've played for more than a decade, and have very often found powerful setups like 6 months~1year before they became mainstream and used by my former detractors more than once, or demonstrated how inept some mainstream setups were.
    PS2 may be a shooter and not a rpg, but the same general principles still apply. In this case rendered easy by the fact VS weaponry tends to be closer to TR's than to NC.

    Tests i do are usually only to see if a theory is not completely omitting something, and i have to say i felt comforted by that particular one. Now i could put my certs where my keyboard is, and do some 500 kills with the MSW-R on the weekend, or aurax it by next week and say it's UP/OP. But what would that achieve?

    Yesterday i did a 180:35 kills/deaths in a 2h30 session with the Eidolon battle rifle. While at first i felt somewhat proud, the reality of it is i played in circumstances i usually don't: mostly zergs and using HA at that. So i'm a good enough shot who fought people who have very probably a much lower framerate than i do in those circumstances, on hexes i know the flow of, where not everything is rendered, visual stimuli everywhere with a class that's stronger in 1v1s than what i usually have.

    What does that kind of gameplay prove in the usual battle settings i'm in, and about the Eidolon or battle rifles? Nothing.
  9. Trebb

    My aim and skill is more than good enough to hit a target moving at normal human speeds. The netcode cannot handle when people spam ADADAD, couple that with the .75 moving faster than NC/TR, basically warping/teleporting around *AND* that person taking longer to die to any other class, and it's a recipe for annoyances and perceived unfair encounters that drain people's will to play.

    I'm hearing two camps here, one that the VS 'deserve' the 0.75 because of how inaccurate or low damage their guns are. Or two, the .75 numbers don't mean squat, so stop bringing it up. Either way, give it to the other factions or just plain remove it.

    tl;dr VS ADADAD spammers warp around more than ours QQ
  10. qquqq

    il trade the orion for a t9 carv any day, the orion is a carve with bad range and you can round corners ads faster
  11. Reclaimer77

    I'm sorry but if you think someone moving THAT slow induces "warping" you have a serious latency issue. I've literally never seen ADADAD cause "warping". Infils and LA's and other classes use .75 ADS weapons, and they are even faster without OVershield than HA's, and I NEVER see them "warp".

    Trying to base your argument on hyperbole. Teleporting, really?? You need to call your ISP lol

    And dude every faction has a .75 ADS LMG option. There's nothing to "give" here.
    • Up x 1
  12. Trebb

    Cool, I'm a new player, which HA weapon on NC/TR do I have access to for that sweet ADS speed? ;)
  13. Neo3602

    The NS-11M2 has a .75ADS speed.
  14. Reclaimer77

    Hey that's great. This game needs new blood.

    But of all the things for a new player to rant about, why .75 ADS LMG's? I don't get it. You have WAY bigger things to deal with out there as a new player than that.

    Too many new players in general get sucked into the mindset that they MUST be Heavy Assault to be competitive. Hell, I thought that way too back then. But there are so many more fun things you could try, better ways to contribute to the fight - - then smacking your face into experienced fully-certed BR100 Heavies night after night.
  15. Leondre

    It seriously feels like I'm cheating whenever I decide to play on my VS alt and use the OPrion. I hardly ever have to actually use my overshield because they just can't hit me. It's plain as day why all the good players go VS, and I regret not doing it sooner. Maybe someday NC heavy will actually be competitive.
    • Up x 1
  16. Xasapis

    So ADSing in lower than normal ADS speed is hard to hit? How do you hit people who ADS? How do you hit people who ADS with 0.75 and are not slowed down by the shield?

    Get yourself an Anchor. Your fellow NC outclass the VS and the Orion with it.
  17. Covah

    0.75 ads speed on 2 LMG is VS trait.

    NC got 200 dmg with big clip and 600 rof / 167 dmg model.

    TR have....750 rof with big clip.

    TR is in need of a signature lmg : 800+ rof / 125 dmg model with 75 / 100 rounds : torq lmg
    • Up x 1
  18. Warlord8gunner

    .75 adds on the flare plz :D lol
    • Up x 1
  19. GarryStutter

    I think everyone's experience is vastly difference due to performance issues. I personally would like SOE to streamline lagg performance for the factions. There is no excuse for NC guns experiencing more crosshair displacement from staggering then other factions. The higher dps per shot and more recoil means that you can't guide your fire into someone as easy to begin with.
    I have extremely bad lagg and more so hit detection issues. I run an i7 16mb ram platform, I used to play woodman and had a flawless gaming experience, we got merged with Miller and the game is just bad really, I just accept that I can't really compete in a sense and dialed down the competition in myself, but at times I need to step away because I'm not even in the game. My internet connection is awesome and I actually live in the servers country, but the smash completely wrecked my and other former Woodman peoples experience. And then when I essentially have to shoot around an enemy like a blind person touching for the enemy. Having such unforgiving tolerances really make me wish I didn't start as NC. When i switch to cobalt, it is lightning fast. Something about the servers info about my character being from woodman seems to keep giving me issues.
  20. asdfPanda

    Well, as another thought to this discussion, I'd like to make the point that the NC heavy does indeed have a 0.75x ads speed weapon outside of the NS-11M: the Cyclone.