TR High ROF LMGs

The problem with high ROF guns in this game is the nature of equal pull recoil, and CoF.
SoE has seen it fit to counter most high RoF guns with higher amounts of H-Recoil. This makes sense and it's a pretty typical thing to do in most FPS's. The problem is when that Recoil become equal pull, that's when it pulls to the left and right equally. This makes for a gun that is more friendly to new players who have not yet learned to compensate for Horizontal recoil, as the crosshairs remain relatively on target, but the gun will "jitter" to the left and to the right of intendended spot in a manner that cannot be controlled.

Once you learn about recoil management you typically want a gun that has a recoil pattern that can be counteracted with the mouse. That means a gun with a consistent pull every time you shoot. Two good examples of this is the GD-22s and the TRV. Even though the TRV has high recoil values so long as you pull the mouse in the opposite direction at the same rate the gun climbs you can keep it on target.

TR suffer from two large issues with Recoil. First being the overabundance of equal pull guns that we have, the second being the high value of H-Recoil we have. Horizontal recoil is infinitely harder to manage than vertical recoil. Really you should not even be concerned with Vertical recoil values especially on guns with sustained fire there is currently no primary guns with a V-recoil value aside from sniper rifles that cannot with minimal effort be counteracted.

Typically games that have guns with higher RoF take this into account. They give guns with higher RoF's sizable first shot multipliers so you introduce two rates of climb to the player. So now the player has two sets of recoil to compensate for, the initial shot that brought them high of the target, and the following string of shots that follows a much more predictable pattern.
Indeed SOE has taken that approach. TR guns like the Carv have higher first shot multipliers. The issues is they've given those guns both high first shot multipliers and high CoF (Per shot) expansion.

The other issue we have is CoF bloom. CoF disproportionately affects higher rate of fire weapons. Guns with higher RoF's hit less pershot, so they demand more shots to land on target. The faster the RoF the faster the bloom expands the faster the weapon becomes unusable, even when CoF values are the same on slower RoF weapons. You then have to stop shooting for as long as it takes for the CoF to reset, and then start shooting again.

Higher RoF guns in this game suffer from both higher H-Recoil values, high first shot multipliers, but also higher CoF values. This is very strange as typical gaming conventions say guns with higher RoF get proportionality lower CoF per shot, but high values per second (by merit of the higher RoF). SOE has taken the approach of giving it both higher values per shot and per second.

All this adds up to make guns with lower RoF more viable in this game. Guns like the TMG will remain more viable until these issues are addressed.

It's like whoever balanced the guns picked up "How to balance Guns 101" and read the chapter about High first shot multipliers, or High H-Recoil, or High CoF exception per second. Only he didn't see that they all had or not and. Apparently he mistook High CoF per-second high high CoF per-shot.

The best solution imo would be to reevaluate the CoF values, and look to add new weapons without equal horizontal pull in the future.

Weapon Stats can be found here

I would also highly recomend this Simulation, and heatmap program found here

Level 50 VS player.

Spawned as a level 1 TR player to see if I get the new goodies. Yep

Hey let me try this LMG in the warpgate. I think it was the CARV.

O M F G , this thing rocks

100 clip High ROF , HARDLY no recoil , very tight spread. This is ridiculus. This thing puts to shame ANY gun I use on VS

Gonna try the same with NC

SOE really needs to balance out this game , its such a shame that they have gimped other factions in something as basic a a gun.

Makes me sad that i have spent all this time as a VS player and invested so much money into this character only to realize that I am playing with a distinct disadvantage. I want to switch away from VS because of the imblanace , but then I would waste all those certs and time and monies WASTED on that character.

This makes a lot of sense and I agree on all accounts. You've really put a lot of thought into this UndeadFred, and I hope the developers notice this thread and take it seriously.

RoF 750, ok check

H-Recoil .225/.225 equal pull the highest LMG in game, so False

CoF .1 not Uncommon for a higher RoF weapon but the highest CoF class for a LMG, so again false.

Placebo effect. The CARV is garbage at anything past 25 meters. Get auraxium with it before you pass judgment on how "good" it is or any weapon for that matter.

I think all TR weapons should get a 25% magazine buff and 100 % ammo reserve. This is the TR niche. Spray weapons.

Really? That's exactly the opposite of what I did. TR main, tired of our weapons being total ***. Made a VS and NC just to try it out and absolutely loving the Orion, it blows away the Carv.

Actually, even guns that have single-directional horizontal recoil have variance incorporated into them in the min/max recoil angle stat (which is 0 for most guns with multi-directional horizontal recoil). I'm not quite clear on how exactly the stat works, though.

Also, I'm not sure where you're getting high rate of fire guns having high CoF added per shot. Their values for that stat are lower as a general rule. Most of them have an ADS value of .05, then the more moderate fire rate guns have .06, then the really slow weapons have .07.

Do I shoot anything past 25 meters , HARDLY NEVER , check

Horizontal recoil , pfff , like that really matters.

More ammo won't help if we're already dead, I'd much rather have a horizontal recoil reduction with an increase in vertical recoil to compensate.

As is TR Carbines, and AR hold 25% more rounds then our VS and NC counterparts. Granted we give up some stats for that (usually H-Recoil (imo not worth it, but that's more of mater of taste)). I don't feel it's our staying power, or killing power that's really at question, but rather our time on target.

Also the Issue of High RoF LMG's affects TR more so than any other Faction, but that is not to say that other factions do not also suffer from these problems. They can usually just offset those difficulties via their more diverse selection of LMG's.

Kookamunga is not wrong is saying the Carv is better than his Orion equivalent (though I would disagree). The Orion suffers from all of the same prolems as the Carv, though its H-Recoil is not as severe. Albeit he trades his staying power (a magazine of half the size of a carv) for that extra lethality.

To be fair if you posted this 2 weeks ago, I would consider you an idiot. But yeah since gu8 the T9-CARV is a solid weapon.

I have been using it exclusively since gu8 went live. The recoil seems to be all vertical, just like the saw. I hated this weapon with a passion pre-gu8, my TMG-50 was my goto LMG. But the damn TMG-50 sprays like a scat max past 50 yards since gu8.

The Op has some very good points though. Just since the patch the TR Heavy's starting weapon might be the best LMG the TR have. But honestly that is not saying much. I'd say it's equivalent to the Orion on my VS toon, solid but no GodSaw.

Good joke I use mine at 50+ meters with a silencer. It got a substantial recoil reduction since last patch, still below the SAW in long range fights but a much better all around gun.

I think more TR guns should be more accurate, 1200 rpm, 90 damage hoses like seems to be stated. Mags and ammo reserve for these guns should both be doubled. I love my alt's CARV and generally go 5:1 with it despite having zero certs in my TR HA, but that's because I stick within the optimal engagement range and don't **** around in situations where I'll empty half my mag to hit 3 times. At those ranges I just pull out my Commish, blap them a few times to make them run to cover, then run up and RAPID FIRE MACHINE GUN THEM IN THE FACE AWW YEAH.

It trades SOME CQC effectiveness for SOME medium range compared to the Orion, which itself trades SOME long range effectiveness for SOME medium range effectiveness compared to the SAW. The starters are all pretty balanced, and I do well with the Orion too. I can do some pretty eye-popping things with the Orion in CQC (I'll never buy a VS shotgun, for example) but I wish I had a CARV/SAW at most of distances.

My main point is mostly that you guys can't come and say, "give us a lot less recoil" and advance no other tradeoffs. Yeah, it sucks that your whole arsenal is basically carbines recoil-wise, but carbines are balanced around things too. You've already got the highest dps - if you want the best recoil too, tough ****. What're you proposing to change? I like my proper bullet hose idea but there's a lot that can be done.

While we're on the subject of high ROF TR LMGs, I heard that the Rhino is doing well after GU8. What is everybody's experiences with that and the Bull? It'd be a real boon if the TR's 100-250 cert guns were also good instead of being strangely purposeless.

Is this not what a foregrip is ment to solve?

I thought I noticed a change in recoil pattern too. I couldn't find any notes on it however. What I did find as changes to Forward Grips.
Either way I'd appreciate it if SOE actually let us in on what changes they make to the game.

No body knows as SOE likes to
A) change values
B) Never let us know what those values were, or have changed too
C) Make them variable for different guns

So Equip that that forgrip confident that it helps....I think.

The foregrip feels like it helps, so I use it. Whats it doing, no idea but i don't need extended mags anyway.

Yeah because once you press the key in the mouse the weapon will keep shooting until it runs out of bullets...
Oh wait it doesn't.