[Vehicle] TR Armor rework concept

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by karlooo, Aug 23, 2020.

  1. karlooo

    Say more about this pls. I don't get your point yet. I'll later explain why I'm biased.
  2. That_One_Kane_Guy

    From what I recall, per the lore the entity that is the Terran Republic is a true world government that has seen total control of the planet (maybe the SS too, don't remember) for a long, long time. The other two factions as they appear in the games are actually recent entities that split off from the original TR colony on the planet we fight on.

    For a body that enjoys that kind of political and military dominance, your most likely source of conflict would likely be small scale insurgencies, a la Iraq/Afghanistan/etc. not large scale armored engagements against a peer opponent. You can see this example at work IRL with the changing of military tactics and technology after the Cold War ended. We no longer train to fight massive armored thrusts across the IGB because that threat no longer exists.
    • Up x 2
  3. Demigan

    You've already read my views on the Vanguard in the Vanguard thread.

    What I'm mostly seeing you do is match something to fit your narrative, like the Leopard tank, and then say "see? Now we need to get it". This goes so far that you've even described your tank idea with all the traits that you despise about the Prowler. In fact the Prowler actually fits your narrative to a T: its the fastest MBT with the highest damage output and you keep complaining about the Prowler being lightly armored and then turn around saying your new tank should be lightly armored.
    You also use the notion of "if we build it they will come". Yet the TR already is well capable of using Prowlers, Lightnings and Sunderers in unision. There wouldnt be much difference when the Prowler gets changed into a weird Sunderer support unit with little reason to pull over a normal Sunderer other than that they wont have access to the Sunderer anymore. So why would the TR suddenly become this cooperative mechanized faction just because you've wasted resources on rebuilding the Prowler and adding a Centauro II reconaisance/Tank destroyer AFV?

    As for the mobility between Prowler and Vanguard. "Mobility" encompasses every movement trait connected to the vehicle. Acceleration, deceleration, topspeed forwards and backwards, grip, suspension, turning ratio's, ability to turn on the spot or not, strafing, afterburners, hover abilities, flight abilities, teleportation and everything else that allows you to move from one spot or orientation to another.

    In PS2, your top acceleration helps define how much speed you keep while turning a corner on the move. The Prowler doesnt lose a lot of speed doing a 180, while a Vanguard is a cumbersome slow beast when turning at the best of times. The Prowler's turn ratio's are also much higher, it wouldnt surprise me if the Prowler can turn in half the amount of time as the Vanguard.
    So while a Vanguard might have close to the same topspeed, if they are tasked with driving a short track with a few turns thr Prowler will easily do it in half the time or less compared to the Vanguard. Similarly it can beat the Magrider in many scenario's unless the Magrider can cross terrain the Prowler has sufficient trouble with.

    If you think that the Prowler's mobility is almost the same as the Vanguard, then there is nothing really more to discuss. You clearly dont want to have a discussion if you keep that viewpoint, you might be better off just saying "this is what I believe and I will not listen to the truth if it hit me in the face" instead of using your bias as a discussion tool to ask for the devs to waste developer time just to appease your biased view.
  4. karlooo

    I think the story is that the TR went to a new world through a wormhole and after the wormhole got destroyed, the TR got cut off from Earth and the colony got divided, so that's why the factions are equal in force....Just they were all supposed to have their unique strategies. That's how I see it.

    (My view)

    No, I was trying to explain to you that the MBT doesn't have to be like the standards we have today (Protection like a heavy tank, firepower like a heavy tank, speed like a light tank, weight of a med tank). It can be any tank design depending on the situation and nations strategy....The MBT of all VS, NC and TR is the Lightening tank because they were part of the Terrain Republic. Some of the TR's traits are strength in numbers, unity, speed, firepower, etc. -> The Lightening tank follows all this, it perfectly fits TR.
    Because the VS and NC were part of the TR, they have access to this massively produced, simple tank.
    The 450 Nanite tanks are empire specific tanks, which shape and support the empires strategies and views.

    The Vanguard is a breakthrough type of tank, that fits with the NCs views.
    The Magrider uses advanced technology the VS discovered, that no factions has access to. The most unique vehicle in the game (This the fasted tank).
    And lastly TR. Instead of continuing on with the Lightening design, trying to combine it with other traditional vehicle designs, which would support TR traits and views, they receive this messed up, nothing tank design called a Prowler, a failed attempt to have both speed and firepower as its advantages.

    Btw I am very certain Demigan said that TR is the most traditionalist faction.
    So then why the hell does TR have a so called "MBT" with a double cannon, wide design, and a bunch of anti-tank top guns, which are all just weird....How is this a traditionalist design?? .... Think about this.

    Uhu....OK but how about you now explain how can the Prowler use its forward agility and speed to its advantage in PS2 and don't talk about how it can flank bull, everybody know that's not true.
    So what is it? To drive to your death quicker?

    Don't act special, you're as biased as me in these topics or possibly even more in a different way.
  5. That_One_Kane_Guy

    That sounds about right. You realize their strategies won't have changed just because they're cut off from their home planet though, right? They aren't a hive mind, they'll still fight the way they've been trained, which in the TR's case isn't likely to include grand scale maneuver warfare for the reasons I've already mentioned. The other two factions even less so, given that one is a group of scientists and the other is a ground of businessmen.
    Half of the traits you've attributed to the TR are non-applicable to a multiplayer game. You can't patch in numbers or force players to work together more effectively.
    The Lightning is not TR, it is not affiliated with them, it does not belong to them. Saying the TR should have 'stuck to' the design is a non-starter. The MBTs already support the strategies and views of their empires, even the Prowler. You simply refuse to accept it and make every effort to place it in the worst light possible. If you want to talk about re-balancing/tweaking the tanks of all three factions, or adding new vehicles to all three factions, I'm on board. But singling out one for special treatment like this, especially on such a flawed premise, is only ever going to end badly.
    • Up x 1
  6. Pikachu

    I think TR should have flying tanks. The soviets tried the idea.
    • Up x 1
  7. karlooo

    Yes I know: A company working with Terrain Republic called NS creates the vehicle.
    But how I see it is that the company massively produced cheap and common equipment, weapons and vehicles, and that is why their technology got into the hands of VS and NC after they divided.

    The original story makes no sense to me. NS started as a TR company on Earth but later during the Auraxium war they tried to stay neutral by providing military contract work too all 3 factions and also provided some rebirth technology to keep the enemies soldiers immortal....They remained safe from takeover...
    Who wrote this lol?
    Why would a company supported by TR, then decide to hand over their technology to (TR point of view) traitors that took advantage of a weakness to start a conflict?

    (The Terrain Republic is traditionalist btw) Yes! I think a big and wide medium tank with double 120mm cannon fits TR....A tank design, which never existed and definitely is not filled with flaws, it's fine as it is.
    But you know what should be added: A new vehicle for ALL factions!
    Like what?! What are you talking about?

    I have no clue what you are talking about...

    How's it not applicable in a multiplayer game?
    If you don't understand my original suggestion just ask specifically....Instead of arguing over nonsense.
  8. That_One_Kane_Guy

    This is a conflict in which three post-scarcity factions that no longer have a concept of true death choose deliberately to engage in an endless war in which they use incomprehensibly advanced technology to manufacture weapons systems so backward they would embarrass a WW2 battlefield.
    You choose a strange hill to die on where suspension of disbelief is concerned.
    Not sure why this is here, I never held this position. Your own words:
    even attribute it to someone else. The TR is more conventional than the other two factions, which is not the same thing.
    I agree.
    Sounds good to me.
    You aren't schizophrenic are you?
    Then please read:
    I dunno, seems pretty straightforward to me.

    I suppose you could make it work if you're Yuri from Red Alert 2 with Cloning Vats and Mind Control, but for the rest of us, forcing people to play the way you want in order to push a narrative just doesn't pan out. If EA couldn't do it I doubt you can.
    Disagreement does not indicate a lack of comprehension. You overestimate the quality of your argument.
    • Up x 1
  9. karlooo

    They had to conquer the world somehow.

    A tank with double 120mm guns is normal? Not experimental?

    Yeah you're right. Their strategies wouldn't have changed. They would have stayed like to the same ones, which won them the world war.
    And because there is a new world war on the new planet they will stick to their old strategies that they used in the last world war...

    Planetside 2 is something else. It's a worldwide conflict where TR got divided equally into 3 parts.

    You still didn't explain to me what you meant in your statements before...

    Anyways where is the super advanced military technology?
    Rotating engines:

    Vertical flying:

    WW2 German jet fighter:

    HEAT rounds already existed at the start of WW2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-explosive_anti-tank_warhead

    WW2 guided bomb, controlled with radio waves: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_X

    WW2 Autopiloted rocket powered Bomb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-1_flying_bomb
    The autopilot used https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrocompass

    and so on...
  10. Blam320

    Literally every single flying vehicle in the game is VTOL. The NC then use Gauss-powered weapons and the VS use alien technology.
  11. Demigan

    TR's history: their army has been retooled to deal with insurgents, saboteurs, mercenaries, rebels and terrorists. They've been a militarized police force that required speed to move its forces to where they were needed and firepower to deal with multiple lower-armor targets that have to be produced in secret on earth. So a dual shot 120mm is perfect for the job.

    On Auraxis building weapons is different. Imagine people from the napoleonic age getting access to the full industrial might of the 21rst century, only without the personell to run it. The lightweight durable alloys for kitchenware might be praised and used as armor while the highest quality tank armor is seen as useless trash. They would just try random stuff and hope to use some industrial equipment just right so they can make something they can use, and likely that thing is worse than what they could manufacture in their own shops but due to the scale, low cost of production and special properties of the materials they would still use it.

    That is basically what the humans on Auraxis are, only worse. They are more like cavemen who got access to smartphones. The original creators of the Vanu statue and the rebirthing grid destroyed a planet in the solar system and created wormholes that humans didnt even begin to understand. The vehicles and weapons we see build are this bad because the humans on auraxis can only do so much with the nanite system. Create a tank with virtually costless ammo, but it wont be clearing entire rooms in a single shot. Cavemen with high-tech toys. The creators of the nanite grid would think we are building clubs.

    NS on Auraxis:
    After landing on Auraxis there was a time of peace as there just wasnt the food or manpower to wage war. People cooperated because they had to, and there had to be ways to ensure that cooperation and survival. The NS systems is likely set up to study and use the rebirthing grid and its nanites to help develop the continents and make sure that the people on Auraxis survive, whoever they are. When the war erupted the NS decided to stay neutral and keep the systems online that allow people to still eat and live. And selling weapons to all factions in the war ensured that they had a stream of resources and money necessary to accomplish that goal. Its why almost every NS vehicle is a rugged transportation vehicle turned into an armored and armed version. From Flashes and ANT's to get around and get small gear to places to Galaxies that ferried personell around or Liberators and Sunderers that look mostly like cargo transports but were pushed into military service.
    • Up x 2
  12. karlooo

    Ok I guess the Prowler could be a good weapon against lightly armed insurgents but the situation is different on Auraxis isn't it? It's a world wide conflict, where the enemies are armed as well as the Terrain Republic.
    So why would the TR generals approve the use of the expensive Prowler that was designed to counter lightly armed insurgents, for this type of conflict?

    You know the attack aircraft A-10? This jet was only used against insurgents and was rarely used in Syria to fight the Islamic state because they had more sophisticated anti-air weapons.
    The Prowler is pretty similar. Like no wonder I find it worse than the Lightening in tank warfare. It was designed to fight insurgents, which is not the threat anymore in PS2 lol.

    If there wasn't enough food and manpower to start a war, then why did they start it? Like how did they know NS would supply them, which is a TR company?
    How I would see it is that the VS and NC seized the new technology during the unrest and then started the coup, which escalated into division and then war.
  13. Demigan

    Because when they landed they had part of their arsenal with them, and then had to use their stunted knowledge of the nanite construction systems in place to build their new arsenal.
    They quickly realized that a 150mm canon (Vanguard) can't OHK anything like our current tanks can, and that tank combat isn't about the biggest gun and taking out vehicles with one shot but about perseverance and repeated shots. The dual shot of the 120mm Prowler fit perfectly, as it does the most damage over time. The Prowler still holds true to the TR rules of combat of speed, agility and firepower while still being the heavier tank they require.

    The A-10, build for the cold-war conflict against Russia, designed as an anti-tank close-air support platform but mostly used it's expensive weapons in overkill against insurgents despite projects like the AO-X (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_Attack/Armed_Reconnaissance) being far superior options? The AO-X program would have provided superior protection for longer durations from less well equipped airfields for lower cost and higher effectiveness as the "danger close" area is a lot smaller allowing these craft to attack targets closer to friendly targets which happened continuously with counter-insurgency warfare?
    And yet these craft still aren't in use by the major powers because... Big planes make boom!
    They are deliberately using older aircraft in multi-role styles they were never designed for, taking away pilots and increasing their budget needlessly while also hampering each individual aircraft as a multi-role craft busy with one of it's roles is slow to switch to it's alternative role not to mention that all of this heavily impacts the sortie rate of aircraft meaning you have less coverage. But sure, the TR will instantly switch to a new style of warfare that neither they nor anyone else has practiced for literal centuries within a few years on a planet where their main construction method is barely understood.

    Also America is weird about it's planes. They often will avoid any planes flying in even lightly contested airspaces unless they have absolute superiority and the ability to take out all AA around. A-10's could probably have been flown in Syria as it's been modernized several times. Just because America didn't fly the A-10 there doesn't mean that much.
    Also what's the exact point there with A-10's not being used there? Do you mean the Prowler wouldn't be used on Auraxis because it might be shot? That would mean the Lightning wouldn't be used either, or any other vehicle for that matter right?

    You know what also would be a perfect anti-insurgency tank? The Lighting. It's small, fast, doesn't have as much overkill or as high a civilian casualty risk, easily operated by one person, has enough armor for such a small vehicle to withstand some punishment and it's lightweight so probably low on fuel cost. Basically the Lightning is the AO-X of Auraxis, and it makes sense that it's available to everyone.

    And once more: The Lightning is more cost/effective than any of the MBT's. To complain about it for just the Prowler is foolish.

    1: They didn't when they landed, but after a few years they did and the fights erupted again. According to the lore I read this war erupted rather early and the fights did have a risk of demolishing too much infrastructure and cause people to die off again.
    2: The NS isn't a TR company. The TR was the military arm, but before the expedition through the wormhole left the TR still had to build the ships and prepare civilians, researchers and whatnot for the trip. The companies on earth saw this as an opportunity to put pressure on the TR and formed an alliance of corporations that was half-heartedly dubbed the New Conglomerate. This meant that most of the production of ships had to go through them, and this conglomerate had the power to make demands about the crew and material that came along on the trip.

    The NS wasn't military, it build archives and logging companies and solar plants and stations and vehicles to get around. So it wasn't a TR company, it was a combination of the New Conglomerate corporations and the civilian researchers, farmers, cooks etc that set up the Nanite Systems, probably with oversight of the TR that didn't want to be left out of the loop but in essence the Nanite Systems company was owned by the New Conglomerate, the future Vanu Researchers and the neutral civilian parties that came along the trip (which would include some of the not-converted scientists and researchers).

    It would be helpful if you actually read the lore that you keep partially referring too. That way we are more on the same page. Ofcourse I might have to start reading the "new" lore as I read it before they updated it and tried for a few days to add it more into the game.
  14. That_One_Kane_Guy

    Hundreds of years prior, yes. Why should they continue to train to fight that way when there isn't a reason to do so? Again I refer you to the massive paradigm shift that occurred in our own world in the last few decades after the Cold War.

    No. Conventional. Not 'traditional', not 'normal', not 'experimental'. It is a conventional tank insofar as it doesn't use any kind of exotic technobabble as weaponry or a means of locomotion. Its design may be unconventional to us, but the way it shoots and drives isn't. Hence my statement.

    I don't know if you're being intentionally obtuse or not. They haven't had a peer opponent in centuries. You train to fight your expected opponent. Given the length of time the TR has been a thing in the lore it is reasonable to assume that the only conflict they have had to contend with in living memory is small insurgency or cartel-type affairs. With this in mind I find your suggestion that their primary tank was designed to fight according to 'Blitzkrieg' rather than some kind of COIN operation to be a little silly.

    I have.

    Sigh. What I actually said:
    The impotence of the aircraft and vehicles in this game is something I have commented on at length many times before.

    You seem to have a great desire to throw out a lot of buzzwords and to name drop a lot of military equipment, but it doesn't seem as though you have a real working knowledge of any of it outside of what you can find on Wikipedia. I'd suggest avoiding using any of it as a foundation of your arguments and stick to the fictional world of the game.
    • Up x 1
  15. karlooo

    Why would some outdated, stupid and overpriced design - Prowler - which was apparently used to destroy small insurgencies, become the Terrain Republics "Main Battle Tank" in a new global war?
    The Terrain Republic should adapt to the change in warfare.

    Btw how is the Prowler conventional? What are the noticeable strengths of the Prowler? .... Is it even necessary?
  16. Demigan

    1: What do you mean "overpriced"? It's a 2-seater instead of a 1-seater with more armor, more guns and almost the same frame capabilities as a Lightning for just 13% more cost?
    2: Because as already mentioned, militaries are slower to adapt to new strategies when they become available especially if it upsets their strategies they used beforehand. The TR did build military hardware early on before the war started to become an actual war. They were fighting insurgencies.
    3: Your suggestion is to remove the TR MBT altogether, and then say "now the Lightning is the MBT" even though it's quite literally a light tank.
    4: The TR is notorious for not adapting to warfare. That is exactly why they are still using conventional equipment. Also a note about conventional: The meaning has changed over the years. Early on spears and arrows were conventional, the musket became conventional and replaced most spears and arrows, then rifling became conventional for weapons and then automatic weapons became conventional. During WWII the conventional tank was anything from an armored tractor with a machine gun to Heavy Tanks too big to move through a village square. Nowadays a tank is basically an MBT and nothing more. There aren't any Heavy Tanks, and any Light Tanks in existance are Armored Fighting Vehicles with specific purposes instead.
    TR's "conventional" is anti-insurgency warfare. The TR are still conventional as stated in the lore and by you, so they would not adapt in warfare. Even so the Prowler is still a beast at dealing with the opposing tanks, wether you believe that or not.
    • Up x 1
  17. Pelojian

    This the basic difference between a modern tank and 'light tanks' aka APCs/IVFs of today is design and purpose and the difference between APCs and IVFs is even smaller, the only difference is the main gun's calibre.

    geniune light and medium tanks only exist in museums, APCs/IFV fill many roles these days, even though some nations use specialized vehicles that aren't apc/ifv types to fill roles.

    APC/IFVs provide mobile fire support and mutual support to infantry and tanks, they transport troops in combat situations, they serve as mobile command vehicles, air defense, ambulences and sometimes as supply vehicles.

    the prowler is an artillery tank, dual barrels give it rangefinding capability with the ability to immediately fire again to test whether the figured range is correct, not only that with it's high dps and speed you can also call it a tank destoryer, the only difference between pre and post barrage is pre-barrage you could sit on a hill all day with an ammo sundie and easily hit things at range while deployed, post-barrage you can't really do that when barrage is on cooldown, barrage makes it easier to destory tanks in CQC then using CQC deploy tactics which could give you an edge in the past if used correctly.

    lets not forget how much people have whined over the years at the prowler's ability to kill infantry with dual guns, a few prowler type vehicle with infinite ammo supply and old deploy mode would be an infantry murder machine in real life, even more terrifying then a battery of howizers.

    there's nothing wrong with the prowler.
    • Up x 1
  18. Demigan

    This isn't entirely true. Light/medium tanks do exist and in solid numbers, but they have been rebranded and repurposed as Armored Fighting Vehicles. They are often an IFV design that has sacrificed all infantry carrying capabilities for their new role. The Centauro for example has several IFV configurations but also many specialist role variations. The Centauro II reverses this, where it's main configuration is without infantry carrying capabilities and almost entirely a reconnaissance and Tank Destroyer function. There exist a variety of smaller calibers, like 60 and 90mm canons, designed specifically for dealing with IFV's and AFV's that aren't MBT's (too many abbreviations there). Such AFV's often have a higher armor rating to protect against common IFV weapons. These are effectively Medium Tanks. Although many of these will carry ammunition for other roles, such as clearing roadblocks, destroying bunkers, destroying entrenched buildings and artillery roles.

    Definitely, and this is one of the biggest missing parts of PS2's combined arms: Mechanized infantry. Where infantry directly supports the vehicles and the vehicles directly support the infantry. Designed in WWII when tanks were so fast to move forwards that the infantry couldn't follow, causing the tanks to be easily flanked and destroyed if they pressed on. The combination of infantry and a vehicle that both transports them and uses a medium caliber weapon (for a vehicle that is) to deal with threats should have been there from the start. I've proposed some ANT versions for this purpose but not many people seem excited for any idea that brings in some real combined arms.

    Just imagine how awesome it would be to be driving around with an auto-canon on your vehicle and several infantry that want to be in your vehicle. Then when you get to the fight the infantry jumps out and has actually a solid role besides lobbing RPG's at an enemy. Then when the threat is cleared the infantry immediately hop back in and the vehicle takes off to the next threat. If this was a vital part of any vehicle column the game would be so much better.
    Some players will go "oh but you can do that right now with an ANT/Sunderer! No need to add more!". But the problem is that it's too communication intensive, too much effort for too little gain. If any random infantryman see's an IFV type vehicle, he should be weighing off the value of entering that vehicle and fighting as mechanized infantry, rather than now where you can park an ANT in the middle of the street and players will rather walk around you than see any value in entering it unless you happen to move to the next base where they'll promptly exit and forget about you.
  19. That_One_Kane_Guy

    Outdated how? On what information are you basing this claim?
    Stupid why? For that matter why is this something unique to the Prowler? It isn't as though the Vanguard or the freaking Magrider were anything to write home about.
    Demi has already discussed price.

    By all evidence the TR have adapted. You don't build a hulking monstrosity with dual 120mm guns for fighting insurgents with rifles. This means it is likely that the Prowler was built with the intent of fighting the current war.

    Once again, the Prowler is neither a tractor that somebody slapped armor and a rail gun onto nor a floating pinto bean with plasma casters strapped on top. It is a purpose-built machine using a conventional method of locomotion and conventional, chemical-propellant weapons. That's it.

    Noticeable strengths have been pointed out to you numerous times and dogpiling onto that seems highly unnecessary.

    Of course the Prowler isn't necessary. Any competent person with the technical know-how and a bit of tweaking could have the TR nanocrafters just 3D print BMPs and ROFL-Stomp both factions combined in about 30 minutes. Given it's level of opposition however, it's perfectly acceptable*.

    *Considering the amount of combat that takes place sans vehicles, one could argue that none of the MBTs are really necessary.
  20. karlooo

    TR doesn't need a CQC stomper and neither a fast shooting tank for longer ranges....This doesn't have much to do with their traits either.
    If TR is all about practicality and traditionalism, then the Vanguard should be the TR ES tank.
    But as one of their ground forces traits is having numbers/being militarily superior, which some trailers mentioned, then the Lightening would be the perfect MBT for TR.

    Cause some of you guys talked about how the Terrain Republic army was trained to fight against small insurgencies for centuries.
    Of course the Prowler would be outdated in this completely new global conflict, with new weapons and change in warfare.

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